Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[ETide]

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

AND it's important to remember that this is the FOUNDATION, which the church is built upon.. and that's its base.. not all that happened beforehand..

We see this in the spiritual description of the Lamb's wife in Rev 21.. it had twelve foundations and upon them the names of the apostles..

So it appears that your position here is that the houshold of God is synonomous with the church of God.. as if to say that the Lamb's wife is the entirety of the houshold of God..

Is that correct, ie, is this what you believe..? And out of curiousity, is this what the orthodox church believes and teaches, or is this your own interpretation..?

Moses was in the Church/kingdom as well as Elijah. The understanding of the angels being a part of this nation to which we are reconciled/grafted on, can be seen in the tabernacle and temple, which the Church continued. There are a lot of Jewish traditions in the Church. This is understandible given how they saw themselves and the church, and explains their susceptibility to" judiazers".

imo, many in Christendom fail to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.. and so we have these beliefs that the church of God is a 'replacement' or a 'continuation' of Israel, and that it (the church) is synonomous with the houshold of God, rather than it being the Lamb's wife.. a people called out for His name, ie Christians, who have CHRIST in them, their hope of glory..

In that view, the enormity of Pentecost (when the LORD sent the promised Comforter) must be minimized to some extent in order for it to be considered a 'continuation' of the same thing.. and the fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come is ignored, the very thing that Paul did not wish that the Christians in Rome be ignorant of, lest they be wise in their own conceits..

Finally, this view (which makes no distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God) misses the times which we're in.. ie, the times of the Gentiles.. and then rather teaches that we're already in the millennial kingdom of Christ.. ie, it teaches its a-millennial eschatology which rejects a future and literal thousand year reign of Christ upon this earth..

So perhaps all this teaching is the product of Tradition.. I'm not sure.. although for the claim that they're infallible.. it certainly appears that there's a lot of holes in these things..

 

[Asinner]

AND it's important to remember that this is the FOUNDATION, which the church is built upon.. and that's its base.. not all that happened beforehand..

We see this in the spiritual description of the Lamb's wife in Rev 21.. it had twelve foundations and upon them the names of the apostles..

So it appears that your position here is that the houshold of God is synonomous with the church of God.. as if to say that the Lamb's wife is the entirety of the houshold of God..

Is that correct, ie, is this what you believe..? And out of curiousity, is this what the orthodox church believes and teaches, or is this your own interpretation..?



imo, many in Christendom fail to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.. and so we have these beliefs that the church of God is a 'replacement' or a 'continuation' of Israel, and that it (the church) is synonomous with the houshold of God, rather than it being the Lamb's wife.. a people called out for His name, ie Christians, who have CHRIST in them, their hope of glory..

In that view, the enormity of Pentecost (when the LORD sent the promised Comforter) must be minimized to some extent in order for it to be considered a 'continuation' of the same thing.. and the fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come is ignored, the very thing that Paul did not wish that the Christians in Rome be ignorant of, lest they be wise in their own conceits..

Finally, this view (which makes no distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God) misses the times which we're in.. ie, the times of the Gentiles.. and then rather teaches that we're already in the millennial kingdom of Christ.. ie, it teaches its a-millennial eschatology which rejects a future and literal thousand year reign of Christ upon this earth..

So perhaps all this teaching is the product of Tradition.. I'm not sure.. although for the claim that they're infallible.. it certainly appears that there's a lot of holes in these things..

I am still trying to figure out your beliefs: Once saved, always saved; thousand year reign of Christ; water baptism unnecessary; symbolic eucharist . . . Are these your beliefs, Etide? Please correct me if I am mistaken. Also, it would be nice to know who I am speaking to - male or female? I do not wish to be presumptuous.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

I am still trying to figure out your beliefs: Once saved, always saved; thousand year reign of Christ; water baptism unnecessary; symbolic eucharist . . . Are these your beliefs, Etide? Please correct me if I am mistaken. Also, it would be nice to know who I am speaking to - male or female? I do not wish to be presumptuous.

God Bless

As I mentioned to you earlier Asinner.. as long as your standard for the truth is your orthodox church, then you'll never understand these things..

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth and teaches that this is it.. it teaches that water baptism is necessary in order to be saved when water baptism is for those who believe and are saved.. and it also teaches that people are born again when they are baptized in water.. it believes that bread gets turned into God.. you say that God transcends all things and yet you can confine Him to a piece of bread..

This is not the teaching of the scriptures.. it's the Tradition of men..

 

[Asinner]

As I mentioned to you earlier Asinner.. as long as your standard for the truth is your orthodox church, then you'll never understand these things..

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth and teaches that this is it.. it teaches that water baptism is necessary in order to be saved when water baptism is for those who believe and are saved.. and it also teaches that people are born again when they are baptized in water.. it believes that bread gets turned into God.. you say that God transcends all things and yet you can confine Him to a piece of bread..

This is not the teaching of the scriptures.. it's the Tradition of men..

Why do you avoid my questions? The doctrines you ascribe to are NEW, Etide. They are recent inventions of men and have nothing to do with those teachings Christ gave His Apostles. What can I say? You are more enlightened than the Apostles then? You outright REJECT the Church and the teachings that have been preserved and maintained for 2000 years. Not only do you reject them, you speak AGAINST them. Step out of your protestant box for a moment and SEE the Church throughout history. It looks nothing like the doctrines you espouse.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Why do you avoid my questions? The doctrines you ascribe to are NEW, Etide. They are recent inventions of men and have nothing to do with those teachings Christ gave His Apostles. What can I say? You are more enlightened than the Apostles then? You outright REJECT the Church and the teachings that have been preserved and maintained for 2000 years. Not only do you reject them, you speak AGAINST them. Step out of your protestant box for a moment and SEE the Church throughout history. It looks nothing like the doctrines you espouse.

God Bless

Well thanks for you opinion Asinner.. although it's been said a few times already.. if your understanding of the church of God is the orthodox church, then that is your standard..

You'll never rise above that standard.. and that's your choice..

You can not teach from the scriptures that your orthodox church is the church of God.. it's simply what you have been taught and have experienced in your life.. although it has nothing to do with the scriptural church of God.

So, rather than go back and forth with you saying that it's because your orthodox church says so... let's simply say, have a nice day.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

As I mentioned to you earlier Asinner.. as long as your standard for the truth is your orthodox church, then you'll never understand these things..

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth and teaches that this is it.. it teaches that water baptism is necessary in order to be saved when water baptism is for those who believe and are saved.. and it also teaches that people are born again when they are baptized in water.. it believes that bread gets turned into God.. you say that God transcends all things and yet you can confine Him to a piece of bread..

This is not the teaching of the scriptures.. it's the Tradition of men..

Our standard of Truth is Christ, and we understand very clearly that it is He who saves. It is not belief in a certain interpretation of the 1000 year passage from Revelation that offers salvation, it isn't water baptism or belief about same, that saves- it is Christ alone who saves.

A careful view of your statement above, which says that our Church cannot assure salvation, and the reasons you give are doctrinal. Ergo, you think your doctrines save you, or at least assure salvation.

Traditions of men? Yes, you speak the traditions of men, and you promulgate them as 1. true and 2. salvific.

Regarding your false statement that we "confine God to a piece of bread"- we say nothing of the sort. We say He is in it. Amazing? Incredible? Certainly- just as it is amazing, unfathomable, that He who is more spacious than the heavens could be contained in a womb.

It is quite instructive that you must misstate and misrepresent our doctrines so as to avoid genuine debate.

While we're at it, I don't rightly recall EVER seeing you actually exegete a passage on any of these matters. So, away with the hubris, let's get down to the nuts and bolts.

First, regarding the millenial reign: If you believe that to be literal, you will also need to believe in a literal 144,000 in heaven- no more, no less. Say you to this what?

Set that aside for a moment. Where else in scripture do we see reference to 1000 years? In that place, is it literally 1000 years, or a day, or some combination thereof?

Now, apart from simple reason, what do scholars have to say on the matter? Yes, of course they're divided. So only the ones who agree with you know what they're talking about, correct?

As a further bit of irony: You take exception to us spiritualizing the millenium, and literalizing the Eucharist.

Traditions of men- which ones?

 

[Asinner]

So, rather than go back and forth with you saying that it's because your orthodox church says so... let's simply say, have a nice day.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Our standard of Truth is Christ, and we understand very clearly that it is He who saves. It is not belief in a certain interpretation of the 1000 year passage from Revelation that offers salvation, it isn't water baptism or belief about same, that saves- it is Christ alone who saves.

I simply mentioned that your church can not assure you of salvation.. is that true or not..? Are you sure of your salvation in Christ, or is that something your church deems presumptious..?

A careful view of your statement above, which says that our Church cannot assure salvation, and the reasons you give are doctrinal. Ergo, you think your doctrines save you, or at least assure salvation.

Having CHRIST in me is not so much doctrinal, it's the miraculous act of God when He sealed me with His Spirit of promise.. I simply trust Him and His word on these things.. perhaps you do not.. perhaps that's presumptious to you.. this is your right..

Traditions of men? Yes, you speak the traditions of men, and you promulgate them as 1. true and 2. salvific.

You say this only because you consider the scriptures to be your Tradition.. and equal to your Tradition.. although the scriptures are apt to make one wise of salvation, and to fully equip every man in Christ.

Regarding your false statement that we "confine God to a piece of bread"- we say nothing of the sort. We say He is in it. Amazing? Incredible? Certainly- just as it is amazing, unfathomable, that He who is more spacious than the heavens could be contained in a womb.

And yet you folks believe that bread is turned into the Almighty God of this universe.. hey, that's your Tradition, you're more than welcome to it.. many others do not subscribe to your church and its Tradition, so what..?

It is quite instructive that you must misstate and misrepresent our doctrines so as to avoid genuine debate.

What have I mis-stated..? You folks say these things over and over again.. it's no big deal.. you're the ones that claim it's your church, and that it's the church of God.. others see it differently.. I don't care to debate these things.. I share my thoughts concerning them.. sometimes they might seem contentious for obvious reasons.. although I simply enjoy sharing my thoughts on the matters.. not debating.. conviction is the work of the Spirit.

While we're at it, I don't rightly recall EVER seeing you actually exegete a passage on any of these matters. So, away with the hubris, let's get down to the nuts and bolts.

I don't ever recall seeing you folks show that your orthodox church is the church of God either.. and that's simply not going to happen.

First, regarding the millenial reign: If you believe that to be literal, you will also need to believe in a literal 144,000 in heaven- no more, no less. Say you to this what?

The 144,000 are Jews, in contrast to the multitude which could not be numbered. So here you're simply showing that you have no understanding of what is believed apart from your amillennial dogma..

Set that aside for a moment. Where else in scripture do we see reference to 1000 years? In that place, is it literally 1000 years, or a day, or some combination thereof?

The DAY of the LORD is fast approaching friend.. study that out in the scriptures and then show us where it all fits into 24 hours.

Now, apart from simple reason, what do scholars have to say on the matter? Yes, of course they're divided. So only the ones who agree with you know what they're talking about, correct?

Says you.. although what scholars say or believe is not what matters.. you and I are no different than they are.. it doesn't take a scholar to know things.. look at Peter, he was a unlearned fisherman, but He was with Christ.. that matters..

As a further bit of irony: You take exception to us spiritualizing the millenium, and literalizing the Eucharist.

Traditions of men- which ones?

Well, if you take John 6 literally.. then why don't you live for ever as the LORD says..? You're not assured of your own salvation and yet the LORD says that you'll live for ever if you eat His flesh and blood..

 

[WarriorAngel]

FreeinChrist, are you trying to trip me?

Parents are the ones speaking FOR the child...so they must be the ones to prepare. And that is the conclusion to our little chat.


Etide, I am going to propose you read the words of Jeremias....... because He was foretelling a Shepherd. And he was telling us that God says....that the Jews were not doing their jobs, and therefore a new set of Pastors would be replacing them.

When the Lord refers to pastor emphasis on the plural....
He is maintaining He is using LEADERS... and we know that leaders are men, that He chooses.

Read this passage and discover how He is going to remove the Pharisees and replace them with HIS CHURCH AND HIS CHOOSEN MEN...
And woe to the false prophets he did not SPEAK to.

SO the men whom you criticise, whom were choosen by the Lord in the line [notice here; God always uses unbroken lines]

For instance.... the line from David was unbroken as Promised by the Lord..hence the geneology to the Lord.
Same as the ordained men...unbroken.

The Lord doesnt use broken lines to maintain order.

In fact, He never promoted such an idea. Not because He cannot, but because He will not.

These very significant things you have ignored because it seems someone told you they do not matter.


Understand that ....someone....that is to say, another human, who is not an ordained pastor in the unbroken line.



Prophecy Of Jeremias
Chapter 23
God reproves evil governors; and promises to send good pastors; and Christ himself the prince of the pastors. He inveighs against false prophets preaching without being sent.



1 Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. 2 Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. 3 And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied. 4 And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord. 5 Behold the days come, saith the Lord, and I will raise up to David a just branch: and a king shall reign, and shall be wise, and shall execute judgement and justice in the earth.

6 In those days shall Juda be saved, and Israel shall dwell confidently: and this is the name that they shall call him: the Lord our just one. 7 Therefore behold the days to come, saith the Lord, and they shall say no more: The Lord liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt: 8 But the Lord liveth, who hath brought out, and brought hither the seed of the house of Israel from the land of the north, and out of all the lands, to which I had cast them forth: and they shall dwell in their own land. 9 To the prophets: My heart is broken within me, all my bones tremble: I am become as a drunken man, and as a man full of wine, at the presence of the Lord, and at the presence of his holy words. 10 Because the land is full of adulterers, because the land hath mourned by reason of cursing, the fields of the desert are dried up: and their course is become evil, and their strength unlike.
11 For the prophet and the priest are defiled: and in my house I have found their wickedness, saith the Lord. 12 Therefore their way shall be as a slippery way in the dark: for they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evils upon them, the year of their visitation, saith the Lord. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria: they prophesied in Baal, and deceived my people Israel. 14 And I have seen the likeness of adulterers, and the way of lying in the prophets of Jerusalem: and they strengthened the hand of the wicked, that no man should return from his evil doings: that are all become unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrha. 15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts to the prophets: Behold I will feed them with wormwood, and I will give them gall to drink: for from the prophets of Jerusalem corruption has gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts: Hearken not to the words of the prophets that prophesy to you, and deceive you: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. 17 They say to them that blaspheme me: The Lord hath said: You shall have peace: and to every one that walketh in the perverseness of his own heart, they have said: No evil shall come to you. 18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath seen and heard his word? Who hath considered his word and heard it? 19 Behold the whirlwind of the Lord's indignation shall come forth, and a tempest shall break out and come upon the head of the wicked. 20 The wrath of the Lord shall not return till he execute it, and till he accomplish the thought of his heart: in the latter days you shall understand his counsel.
21 I did not send prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 If they stood in my counsel, and had made my words known to my people, I should have turned them from their evil way and from their wicked doings. 23 Am I, think ye, a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Shall a man be hid in secret places, and I not see him, saith the Lord? do not I fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord? 25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, and say: I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, and that prophesy the delusions of their own heart? 27 Who seek to make my people forget my name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor: as their fathers forgot my name for Baal. 28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream: and he that hath my word, let him speak my word with truth: what hath the chaff to do with the wheat, saith the Lord? 29 Are not my words as a fire, saith the Lord: and as a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore behold I am against the prophets, saith the Lord: who steal my words every one from his neighbor.
31 Behold I am against the prophets, saith the Lord: who use their tongues, and say: The Lord saith it. 32 Behold I am against the prophets that have lying dreams, saith the Lord: and tell them, and cause my people to err by their lying, and by their wonders: when I sent them not, nor commanded them, who have not profited this people at all, saith the Lord. 33 If therefore this people, or the prophet, or the priest shall ask thee, saying: What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt say to them: You are the burden: for I will cast you away, saith the Lord. 34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people that shall say: The burden of the Lord: I will visit upon that man, and upon his house. 35 Thus shall you say every one to his neighbor, and to his brother: What hath the Lord answered? and what hath the Lord spoken?

34 "Burden of the Lord"... This expression is here rejected and disallowed, at least for those times: because it was then used in mockery and contempt by the false prophets, and unbelieving people, who ridiculed the repeated threats of Jeremias under the name of his burdens.

36 And the burden of the Lord shall be mentioned no more, for every man's word shall be his burden: for you have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God. 37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet: What hath the Lord answered thee? and what hath the Lord spoken? 38 But if you shall say: The burden of the Lord: therefore thus saith the Lord: Because you have said this word: The burden of the Lord: and I have sent to you saying: Say not, The burden of the Lord: 39 Therefore behold I will take you away carrying you, and will forsake you, and the city which I gave to you, and to your fathers, out of my presence. 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame which shall never be forgotten. 39 "Out of my presence"... That is, the Lord declares that out of his presence he will cast them, and bring them to captivity for their transgressions.

 

[Asinner]

I
Having CHRIST in me is not so much doctrinal, it's the miraculous act of God when He sealed me with His Spirit of promise..

Hi girlfriend . . .

No need to concern yourself with the state of our (Orthodox) salvation then. Since ALL those baptized have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, then ALL have this assurance, right?

Your way sounds very broad.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Hi girlfriend . . .

No need to concern yourself with the state of our (Orthodox) salvation then. Since ALL those baptized have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, then ALL have this assurance, right?

Your way sounds very broad.

God Bless

The baptism which seals us IN CHRIST is our being baptized by His Spirit, God alone can do that.

I know that your church believes and teaches that if a person is baptized in water, even if they're an infant, then they're born again and receive the Spirit of God..

Although water baptism does not place a person into Christ.. God's Spirit places a person into Christ.. for He gives them power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.. who are born not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man..

But OF GOD.

There's assurance in that.. for He is perfect, and when He places a person into His body, into Christ.. then you can rest assured that He knows what He is doing.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The baptism which seals us IN CHRIST is our being baptized by His Spirit, God alone can do that.

I know that your church believes and teaches that if a person is baptized in water, even if they're an infant, then they're born again and receive the Spirit of God..

Although water baptism does not place a person into Christ.. God's Spirit places a person into Christ.. for He gives them power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.. who are born not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man..

But OF GOD.

There's assurance in that.. for He is perfect, and when He places a person into His body, into Christ.. then you can rest assured that He knows what He is doing.

Ahhh, you mean the Lord's Church, whereas His ordained pastors baptized infants.
Thus you are correct.

See my former post.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I simply mentioned that your church can not assure you of salvation.. is that true or not..? Are you sure of your salvation in Christ, or is that something your church deems presumptious..?

I already answered this in my prior post.

Having CHRIST in me is not so much doctrinal, it's the miraculous act of God when He sealed me with His Spirit of promise.. I simply trust Him and His word on these things.. perhaps you do not.. perhaps that's presumptious to you.. this is your right..

"Perhaps you do not"- again, my position was clearly stated.

You trust is well placed in Him. I, unlike you, do not either state or imply that there is any doubt in whom you trust. What is in doubt here is your ability to understand the implications of your own statements. I return you to the statement you made

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this eart

Now this very much appears as if you are suggesting that the Orthodox Church cannot assure salvation due to our position on the interpretation of Revelation 20. We never claimed to assure salvation, and I can tell you with certainty that there are numerous interpretations of this passage, many which differ from yours, held by people with a superior knwoledge of theology and language to your own.
Make of that what you will.

You say this only because you consider the scriptures to be your Tradition.. and equal to your Tradition.. although the scriptures are apt to make one wise of salvation, and to fully equip every man in Christ.

No, I pointed out the obvious- you have your own tradition which you are presenting as 1. true and 2. salvific

And yet you folks believe that bread is turned into the Almighty God of this universe.. hey, that's your Tradition, you're more than welcome to it.. many others do not subscribe to your church and its Tradition, so what..?

Yes, exactly, so what?

BTW: does God Almighty inhabit you? ( a rhetorical question). Certain religious and irreligious groups find your 'tradition' in this regard to be absurd. Perhaps they have mocked you for stating your literal belief in that 'book written by men.' We who literally believe that Christ is present in a mystery in the Eucharist experience mockery for so believing, simply, and are told that such beliefs are 'written by men.'
Perhaps the irony should be hitting you right about now.

What have I mis-stated..? You folks say these things over and over again.. it's no big deal.. you're the ones that claim it's your church, and that it's the church of God.. others see it differently.. I don't care to debate these things..

And that is part of the problem here. I have pointed out clearly and concisely where you have misrepresented our belief in my previous post- but you're "not interested in debating these things." But you seem interested in, if not content to, state our view(s) as you (mis) understand them.

I share my thoughts concerning them.. sometimes they might seem contentious for obvious reasons.. although I simply enjoy sharing my thoughts on the matters.. not debating.. conviction is the work of the Spirit.

The reason why you are contentious is not obvious to me. Perhaps you can elaborate.

I don't ever recall seeing you folks show that your orthodox church is the church of God either.. and that's simply not going to happen.

Well, even if we intended to, it wouldn't happen- so let's move on then.

The 144,000 are Jews, in contrast to the multitude which could not be numbered. So here you're simply showing that you have no understanding of what is believed apart from your amillennial dogma..

I asked you a question- I did not make a dogmatic statement.
So then your beliefe is that only the 144,000 are sealed and go to heaven? I'm just trying to locate your interpretation on the big map.

The DAY of the LORD is fast approaching friend.. study that out in the scriptures and then show us where it all fits into 24 hours.

Whose 24 hours?

Says you.. although what scholars say or believe is not what matters.. you and I are no different than they are.. it doesn't take a scholar to know things.. look at Peter, he was a unlearned fisherman, but He was with Christ.. that matters..

So you compare yourself to Peter? In what respect? Are you unlearned? A fisherman? Or are you claiming apostolic insight?

What is confusing about your manner of dialogue on this thread is that you boast of how others do not understand certain passages and doctrines. One might think that you are claiming superior knowledge, but now it appears that you are claiming superior revelation. Yet you seem offended that others might do the same.
There is a certain disconnect there.

Well, if you take John 6 literally.. then why don't you live for ever as the LORD says..? You're not assured of your own salvation and yet the LORD says that you'll live for ever if your eat His flesh and blood..

I do and will live forever. The question is whether I will be found to love Him- just as the same question applies to you.

I am assured of He who is salvation, not in "my salvation." It is not a work of mine, but is of Him. Not my faith, but the faith of Christ. I do not make vain claims regarding my own state before Christ because He is the Judge.

 

[Asinner]

I know that your church believes and teaches that if a person is baptized in water, even if they're an infant, then they're born again and receive the Spirit of God..

It is God that baptizes. You assert that in order for one to receive the Holy Spirit, one must understand and reason it. This is Gnostic. Salvation is purely by Grace; for He loved me, before I could ever love Him.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Ahhh, you mean the Lord's Church, whereas His ordained pastors baptized infants.
Thus you are correct.

See my former post.

What is the Lord's church WA, can you tell us?

 

[ETide]

You trust is well placed in Him. I, unlike you, do not either state or imply that there is any doubt in whom you trust. What is in doubt here is your ability to understand the implications of your own statements. I return you to the statement you made

So are you telling me that I do not understand the simple assertions from you folks concerning the fact that it's presumptious for you to consider yourselves saved.. is that it?

Now this very much appears as if you are suggesting that the Orthodox Church cannot assure salvation due to our position on the interpretation of Revelation 20. We never claimed to assure salvation, and I can tell you with certainty that there are numerous interpretations of this passage, many which differ from yours, held by people with a superior knwoledge of theology and language to your own.

Make of that what you will.

So, here it's clear that YOU do not understand the implication of your own statements.. because your comments on Rev 20 had nothing to do with my comments on you folks asserting that it's presumptious to believe that you're saved.. IT WAS THE NEXT ASSERTION ON THE LIST that Asinner had mentioned.. so in this case.. you simply do not understand what's being stated.

BTW: does God Almighty inhabit you? ( a rhetorical question). Certain religious and irreligious groups find your 'tradition' in this regard to be absurd. Perhaps they have mocked you for stating your literal belief in that 'book written by men.' We who literally believe that Christ is present in a mystery in the Eucharist experience mockery for so believing, simply, and are told that such beliefs are 'written by men.'

Perhaps the irony should be hitting you right about now.

God inhabiting His creatures is a spiritual reality..He does not inhabit them physically, but spiritually. The teaching that bread is changed into God physically is a complete disconnect from what John 6 actually teaches.. but again.. this has been going on for centuries.. it's not going to be settled here.

And that is part of the problem here. I have pointed out clearly and concisely where you have misrepresented our belief in my previous post- but you're "not interested in debating these things." But you seem interested in, if not content to, state our view(s) as you (mis) understand them.

The reason why you are contentious is not obvious to me. Perhaps you can elaborate.

And again, I asked you what I have mis-stated.. and you will not simply show what that is.. do you folks believe that bread is turned into God.. YES, you do.. do you say it's presumptious to believe that you're saved already.. YES, you do.. so again, perhaps you can elaborate..

I asked you a question- I did not make a dogmatic statement.

So then your beliefe is that only the 144,000 are sealed and go to heaven? I'm just trying to locate your interpretation on the big map.

Your question was implying that my litreral application of the millennial kingdom of Christ had bearing upon whether or not there were only 144,000 people saved, isn't that what you were getting at..? I simply showed that the 144,000 in the Revelation are sealed Jews, with there being 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes.. these are contrasted with a multitude which can not be numbered.. is that satisfactory to you..

Whose 24 hours?

You asked about the thousand year reign of Christ, which you spiritualize into the here and now.. as if this is it.. so I asked you to study out the Day of the LORD in the scriptures and then apply it to a literal 24 hour period of time.. so it's 24 hours as we know and record a DAY..

So you compare yourself to Peter? In what respect? Are you unlearned? A fisherman? Or are you claiming apostolic insight?

You brought up scholars, I simply showed you that scholarship has no bearing on the matter.. I do not claim to be an Apostle.. I have not seen the risen LORD.. you folks are the ones who claim apostolic succession.

What is confusing about your manner of dialogue on this thread is that you boast of how others do not understand certain passages and doctrines. One might think that you are claiming superior knowledge, but now it appears that you are claiming superior revelation. Yet you seem offended that others might do the same.

There is a certain disconnect there.

I'm not offended at all, and I already mentioned that we're simply sharing our views of these things.. I completely disagree with many of the things which you folks claim, like that the orthodox church is the church of God.. so what's new..?

I do and will live forever. The question is whether I will be found to love Him- just as the same question applies to you.

I am assured of He who is salvation, not in "my salvation." It is not a work of mine, but is of Him. Not my faith, but the faith of Christ. I do not make vain claims regarding my own state before Christ because He is the Judge.

You question whether or not you love the LORD..? This is the only constraining motive which a Christian is to have.. is love.. faith which worketh by love..

Our love for Him certainly falls short, although it is not our love for Him which assures our salvation, but rather His perfect love for us.. for nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord..

A lack of assurance is typically evidenced by the object to which it it is focused on.. in this case it's your love for Him, rather than His perfect love for you.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

So are you telling me that I do not understand the simple assertions from you folks concerning the fact that it's presumptious for you to consider yourselves saved.. is that it?

I'll go one step further and state that it is clear that you demonstrate neither understanding of our views, nor the will to do so. You have repeatedly and stubbornly misrepresented what you have read by those persons here with the EO icon.

So, here it's clear that YOU do not understand the implication of your own statements.. because your comments on Rev 20 had nothing to do with my comments on you folks asserting that it's presumptious to believe that you're saved.. IT WAS THE NEXT ASSERTION ON THE LIST that Asinner had mentioned.. so in this case.. you simply do not understand what's being stated.

Your response to me was argumentative re the interpretation of Rev 20. I pointed out that your particular tradition is not the only one. Simple as that.

God inhabiting His creatures is a spiritual reality..He does not inhabit them physically, but spiritually. The teaching that bread is changed into God physically is a complete disconnect from what John 6 actually teaches.. but again.. this has been going on for centuries.. it's not going to be settled here.

So God inhabiting us is a 'spiritual reality.' Is then His habitation of the Eucharist a 'spiritual reality' also, or do you categorize that otherwise?

And again, I asked you what I have mis-stated.. and you will not simply show what that is.. do you folks believe that bread is turned into God.. YES, you do.. do you say it's presumptious to believe that you're saved already.. YES, you do.. so again, perhaps you can elaborate..

Before we address your incorrect statements above, may I remind you that I have cited for you, before and now, my first post, where I specifically itemized your misrepresentation(s). I shall not repeat the list.

Now, as regards the bread "becoming God:"
First, there are two elements, the bread and the wine. We do not discuss their physical properties- we simply say that He is really there. I believe that He is really there in me, also. You would distinguish then spiritual from physical.
We do not use the language of Transubstantiation, nor are we comfortable with it. There is a mystery- two become one flesh in marriage, and God is present in the Cup. God invades this mortal earth for reasons only He can quantify and in way that His word only hints at. There are thousands of unknown mysteries, manners in which God interacts in this physical world. Is a miraculous healing spiritual, physical, or both?
That's a rhetorical question. Your artifice of dividing these two is dangerously reminiscent opf gnosticism, and misrepresents, I believe, your own belief on the matter.

Your question was implying that my litreral application of the millennial kingdom of Christ had bearing upon whether or not there were only 144,000 people saved, isn't that what you were getting at..? I simply showed that the 144,000 in the Revelation are sealed Jews, with there being 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes.. these are contrasted with a multitude which can not be numbered.. is that satisfactory to you..

My point was and is that your choice of what to take literally and what to take symbolically is a choice, and is debatable.

You asked about the thousand year reign of Christ, which you spiritualize into the here and now.. as if this is it.. so I asked you to study out the Day of the LORD in the scriptures and then apply it to a literal 24 hour period of time.. so it's 24 hours as we know and record a DAY..

We don't 'spiritualize it- we really believe that His Kingdom has come and is coming. "Of the increase of His governement and of peace there shall be no end" says the Prophet Isaiah.

You brought up scholars, I simply showed you that scholarship has no bearing on the matter.. I do not claim to be an Apostle.. I have not seen the risen LORD.. you folks are the ones who claim apostolic succession.

That response is all over the map.
Scholarship has bearing on the matter, if one is claiming to have the "correct" doctrine as YOU ARE.
Apostolic Succession is another topic altogether.

I'm not offended at all, and I already mentioned that we're simply sharing our views of these things.. I completely disagree with many of the things which you folks claim, like that the orthodox church is the church of God.. so what's new..?

Your disagreement is noted. I don't find that especially problematic. My responses have been to your misrepresentation of our doctrine(s)

You question whether or not you love the LORD..? This is the only constraining motive which a Christian is to have.. is love.. faith which worketh by love..

Being a student of scripture, I pay attention to the warnings as well as the promises. Neither should be dismissed.
"Be carefully when you think you stand, lest you fall." "Examine yourself, see if you are in the faith." "The heart is deceitfully wicked above all things."

Knowing that I can be deceived helps me to cling to truth.

Our love for Him certainly falls short, although it is not our love for Him which assures our salvation, but rather His perfect love for us.. for nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord..

One thing can- us.

A lack of assurance is typically evidenced by the object to which it it is focused on.. in this case it's your love for Him, rather than His perfect love for you.

His love has never been a question. The human who does not doubt self scares me.

 

[ETide]

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I'll go one step further and state that it is clear that you demonstrate neither understanding of our views, nor the will to do so. You have repeatedly and stubbornly misrepresented what you have read by those persons here with the EO icon.

Ok Iak, if you say so.. thanks for your opinion on this.

Your response to me was argumentative re the interpretation of Rev 20. I pointed out that your particular tradition is not the only one. Simple as that.

Your view and my view of Rev 20 had absolutely nothing to do with my saying that you folks have no assurance of your salvation.. and yet you're telling me that I do not understand.. it's obvious to me that you did not understand the subject that you jumped into after Asinner had made the initial comments.

So God inhabiting us is a 'spiritual reality.' Is then His habitation of the Eucharist a 'spiritual reality' also, or do you categorize that otherwise?

Before we address your incorrect statements above, may I remind you that I have cited for you, before and now, my first post, where I specifically itemized your misrepresentation(s). I shall not repeat the list.

Now, as regards the bread "becoming God:"
First, there are two elements, the bread and the wine. We do not discuss their physical properties- we simply say that He is really there. I believe that He is really there in me, also. You would distinguish then spiritual from physical.
We do not use the language of Transubstantiation, nor are we comfortable with it. There is a mystery- two become one flesh in marriage, and God is present in the Cup.

Hey, I must agree with you on this one.. I forgot that you disagree with the catholics in transubstantiation, and you folks call it consubstantiation, isn't that right..?

So then, you do NOT take John 6 literally, as the catholics do.. is that correct..?

Thanks for pointing that out.. I do remember that there is a difference between you and the catholics.. and that is basically what it comes down to the eucharist.. again, feel free to correct my glaring mis-representation of 'the' true church of God as you endorse it..

My point was and is that your choice of what to take literally and what to take symbolically is a choice, and is debatable.

Well then, some point you've made there.. although that's nothing we didn't know already.

We don't 'spiritualize it- we really believe that His Kingdom has come and is coming. "Of the increase of His governement and of peace there shall be no end" says the Prophet Isaiah.

Revelation 11 speaks of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. this is not the case right now.. for that pertains to the things which shall be hereafter..

That response is all over the map.

Scholarship has bearing on the matter, if one is claiming to have the "correct" doctrine as YOU ARE.
Apostolic Succession is another topic altogether.

Simply sharing my faith Iak, as you do yours.. scholarship has nothing to do with that, perhaps it does for you, it does not for me. The doctrine which I believe to be true are not founded upon scholars, but upon the whole counsel of scripture as it is studied and applied.

Your disagreement is noted. I don't find that especially problematic. My responses have been to your misrepresentation of our doctrine(s)

Well, then thanks again for correcting them.

Being a student of scripture, I pay attention to the warnings as well as the promises. Neither should be dismissed.

"Be carefully when you think you stand, lest you fall." "Examine yourself, see if you are in the faith." "The heart is deceitfully wicked above all things."

Knowing that I can be deceived helps me to cling to truth.

How one builds upon the foundation of Jesus Christ has real reward and loss associated with it. The problem is that you're confounding salvation with sanctification and how we're to walk in the spirit rather than in the flesh.

One thing can- us.

Then this explains why you'll never has assurance, because there is no assurance in yourself. It also flat out denies the truth that nothing can separate us (the body of Christ) from the love of GOD in Jesus Christ..

It's also partly because you folks believe that you're placed there (into Christ) in water baptism as well.

His love has never been a question. The human who does not doubt self scares me.

Again, if you're standing upon yourself.. then it's no wonder that you have doubts.. I don't always 'feel' saved.. and I can doubt myself.. but I know that I can not sustain that which I could have never, ever, earned in the first place.

I asked the question before and you folks don't answer it..

Are you working toward your salvation ?

 

[calmcoolandelected]

The problem is that you're confounding salvation with sanctification and how we're to walk in the spirit rather than in the flesh.

I tried to point that out a couple of hundred posts ago...

CC&E

 

[ETide]

I tried to point that out a couple of hundred posts ago...

CC&E

So perhaps they will answer the question of whether or not they are working toward their salvation..