Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[ETide]

Unity in protestantism, does not exist. Although one may claim there is the Spirit of Unity, it is NOT manifest in faith nor practice. There is much division and discord.

I agree completely that there is NOT unity in protestantism.. and perhaps you think that I'm speaking for it.. let me make it clear that I am not.. I speak of the scriptures which speak of the church of God and which teach us that as the one body of Christ, we're to keep the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace..

The orthodox idea of this unity seems to be that it's based upon the orthodox church being "the" church of God..

How can Christ's Church, that which was founded UPON Him, not be perfect? This is what lead me away from protestantism. The Church of the New Testament painted a much different picture than what I beheld for 13 years as a protestant. I heard the same excuses from others as I hear from you.

We've been through this before Asinner, if you claim to be a member of the church of God.. do you proclaim to be perfect..?

AND, you're obviously free to believe that the orthodox church is the church of God.. if that's your standard for unity of the Spirit, then so be it.. that's your excuse, not mine.

Theo has not been TAUGHT that the Orthodox Church is the Church of God, he has witnessed it for himself as every Orthodox believer has. I have seen perfection, not in myself (quite the opposite), but in that which I have been born into - CHRIST. His Church is perfect and filled with Grace and it is manifested - Unity, Love, Virtue, Holiness, Apostolic, Universal. I say this, not to boast, but to testify to it's existence! The Kingdom of God is at hand! Praise God!

If the orthodox church is the church of God, then it would be easily taught through the scriptures.. although it is not..

I too have seen perfection IN CHRIST, and that His church is growing in the grace and in the knowledge of Him.. if it was already perfect, then there wouldn't be a need for growing up into Him.. we'd all already be there.

Christ has set HIS standards and It is Glorious, indeed!

I agree, and your standard is that the church of God is the orthodox church, so be it.. it's no biggee.. others don't accept that.. it's no biggee..

I take it you have never been in contact with an Elder or Bishop of the Orthodox Church. You would not be making these comments if you had. Please do not judge, that which you do not know.

God Bless

I have no desire to contact a man, who is no different than myself, who has a title of His High Holiness.. or whatever it may be..

I've been in contact with my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.. and more importantly.. He has been in contact with me.. He has been intimately aqauinted with my lost estate.. even bearing my sins in His own body on the tree..

His High Holiness knows nothing of that..

 

[stumpjumper]

MOD HAT ON

Please keep this discussion to the topic at hand and refrain from using ad-hominens. Please post with Christian kindness and keep within forum rules.

1 Corinthians 13
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[WarriorAngel]

We've been through this before Asinner, if you claim to be a member of the church of God.. do you proclaim to be perfect..?

I have no clue what you are asking this for.

Are you suggesting now you are perfect?
Or that you ask that Asinner is perfect because of her faith??

You lost me.

 

[Theophorus]

The church of God is not perfect in its love and care for one another.. all of us are growing up together into that PERFECT man, even our Lord Jesus Christ..

You are like a broken record ETide, just repeating the same thing over and over until someone "gets it". I don't get it because it makes no sense.
And neither does this statement. Was it not pointed out in the scriptures that the Church is Christ? If Christ is not perfect, then we are in big trouble. I'm sorry but your description of the church is one that concedes defeat and justifies discord.
That is just not in the scriptures, regardless of my affiliation.

IT defies your imagination perhaps.. because you have been taught that the Orthodox church is the church of God.. although the body of Christ is being conformed to the glory and image of Christ through the SPIRIT of God, not through the orthodox church.

My teacher was the scriptures. I think the problem with your concession is that you have not experienced true unity. You look around and pronounce it unattainable. Just because you have not tasted it, does not mean one has to accept your defeatism.

If you believe that the Orthodox church is the church of God, then you've set that as your standard for God's church.. it's obvious to me who is setting standards here Theo..

It is God who is setting the standards ETide, and it is obvious who is compromising them.

 

[Asinner]

I agree completely that there is NOT unity in protestantism..

Disunity is the rotten apple of protestantim.

The orthodox idea of this unity seems to be that it's based upon the orthodox church being "the" church of God..

Wrong. Anyone can claim to be the Church of God. As I stated previously, His Church is where the manifestation of Christ exists - Unity, Love, Virtue, Holiness, Catholicity, Apostolicity . . . The saints of Orthodoxy testify to this.

We've been through this before Asinner, if you claim to be a member of the church of God.. do you proclaim to be perfect..?

Again, I will answer NO. I am the opposite.

AND, you're obviously free to believe that the orthodox church is the church of God.. if that's your standard for unity of the Spirit, then so be it.. that's your excuse, not mine.

Again, it is Christ's standard; for they are His Fruits which bear witness. I only testify to it.

If the orthodox church is the church of God, then it would be easily taught through the scriptures.. although it is not..

That is because sola scriptura denies the visible, physical Church and makes Christ merely spiritual. A heresy already condemned. You don't see His Church in the scriptures because you don't want to see it. You prefer to lean on your understanding. All who interpret scriptures outside of the Church, interpret them with their passions. The result - DISUNITY and a mockery made of Christ. Two examples of this are a symbolic Eucharist and a symbolic Baptism. Both are physical AND spiritual, just as Christ is both God and Man. Can we reason the Incarnation and understand it? No. We can also not reason and understand His Holy Mysteries.

I too have seen perfection IN CHRIST, and that His church is growing in the grace and in the knowledge of Him.. if it was already perfect, then there wouldn't be a need for growing up into Him.. we'd all already be there.

This does not negate where the fruits of the Spirit are manifest.

I agree, and your standard is that the church of God is the orthodox church, so be it.. it's no biggee.. others don't accept that.. it's no biggee..

It is HUGE!!!! Salvation is found within His Church. Christ is not Buddha, and should never be reduced to a set of teachings. He rose from the dead, conquering death by death, and in Him is eternal life. This is not only a teaching, it becomes real within the Sacraments of His Church. Christ is tangible and spiritual.

I have no desire to contact a man, who is no different than myself, who has a title of His High Holiness.. or whatever it may be..

Would you say that you are just as Holy as John the Baptist, Paul, John the Apostle? These men were Holy, because of the Grace given them by Christ. Do you have this same Grace, Etide? Is it possible that some attain Virtue before others? I am far from Humble, far from Pure, far from exhibiting Meekness, Charity . . .

I've been in contact with my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.. and more importantly.. He has been in contact with me.. He has been intimately aqauinted with my lost estate.. even bearing my sins in His own body on the tree..

I believe those who seek Him will find Him.

God Bless

 

[doidareclaimtofollowHim]

[/size]

Disunity is the rotten apple of protestantim.

And unity in the wrong thing is the rotten apple of catholicism.

 

[Asinner]

And unity in the wrong thing is the rotten apple of catholicism.

Define "wrong" unity?

God Bless

 

[doidareclaimtofollowHim]

Define "wrong" unity?

I would say the unity in the fact that the traditions of the catholic church are more important than what God is saying right now. And in the fact that the what the pope says is the right interpretation of the bible. And unity in the belief that both grace and works save you. And the unity in the fact that you can only be a saint if you do three miracles. And the unity in the belief that you must confess to priests. And requirements for holiness. And praying to mary. and the ever-virgin mary.

Sorry, got carried away.

 

[Asinner]

I would say the unity in the fact that the traditions of the catholic church are more important than what God is saying right now. And in the fact that the what the pope says is the right interpretation of the bible. And unity in the belief that both grace and works save you. And the unity in the fact that you can only be a saint if you do three miracles. And the unity in the belief that you must confess to priests. And requirements for holiness. And praying to mary. and the ever-virgin mary.

Sorry, got carried away.

Firstly, I am Orthodox, not Catholic. We have no pope. Jesus Christ is the head of His Church.

On Mary:
http://www.protomartyr.org/mary.html

About the Orthodox Church:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2642693-wiki-orthodox-church.html

God Bless

 

[doidareclaimtofollowHim]

On Mary:

Ok, I have a lot or problems with the twisting of scripture here in this article.


"For some Christian bodies have come to stand dogmatically against Christ and the New Testament by refusing to bless her." She says the will call me blessed not bless her and pray to her. Do you really think that the foundation of Christ's teaching was to pray to mary? that goes against the rest of his teaching.

and the fact that the word until was used in other passages that say "until she died" doesn't mean that the until in matthew 1:25 ment that. It says he didn't know her[sexually] until after jesus was born. That sure sounds like she had sex...and there is nothing wrong if she did. Sex is a holy thing when done the way God intended. And they couldn't have been married if they didn't have sex.

About the Orthodox Church:

please read Mark 7:1-13. Jesus talks about people doing this...I believe the orthodox church is doing this more than it is not.

 

[ETide]

Was it not pointed out in the scriptures that the Church is Christ? If Christ is not perfect, then we are in big trouble.

The church of God is the body of Christ, many members, but one body. All of the members have been baptized into His body by one Spirit.. His Spirit.

Every single member of the body of Christ has the imputed righteousness of Christ. They're perfect in that respect, ie, with respect to righteousness which is IN CHRIST.. (on a side note, even though this is true, the orthodox church can not assure any person of their salvation)

Each member has been delivered from the penalty of sin.. they're being delivered from the power of sin in their lives.. and ultimately they will all be delivered from the presence of sin..

SO, the church of God is the body of Christ, it will be presented to God by Himself as a glorious church, having no spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.. it will for ever be His bride.. the Lamb's wife..

It's not an earthly institution, but a heavenly entity.. it's a habitation of GOD through the Spirit.. our citizenship is in heaven, not on earth..

I'm sorry but your description of the church is one that concedes defeat and justifies discord.

The only reason that you say this is because of the fact that I've said that the Orthodox church is not the church of God.. and it's not.. this is not a difficult thing.. if you'd like to persist in this, then that's fine.. although it's your only basis for saying what you say to me, because all that I have commented on is the church of God as it is spoken of in the scriptures.. perhaps you don't like that, and that's fine.. that's your choice.. your standard is that the orthodox church is the church of God.. that's fine..

That is just not in the scriptures, regardless of my affiliation.

Says you, but you've been taught that the orthodox church is the church of God.. so it's your measuring rod, or your standard.. if others do not measure up to your orthodox church, then you say that they're substandard..

My teacher was the scriptures. I think the problem with your concession is that you have not experienced true unity. You look around and pronounce it unattainable. Just because you have not tasted it, does not mean one has to accept your defeatism.

You're obviously making this stuff up.. I experience wonderful unity in the body of Christ all the time.. so you got to be kidding here.. but again Theo, it's simply because it doesn't measure up to your orthodox standard.. that's why you say these things.

It is God who is setting the standards ETide, and it is obvious who is compromising them.

You've made it very clear as to what YOUR standard is Theo.. it's the orthodox church..

 

[Theophorus]

Etide, you have no idea of my background. You make declarative statements based on assumptions.

 

[Theophorus]

Maybe you should defend your statements rather than sepeculating on my motives.

 

[Theophorus]

Your views of salvation are different than mine, as well as different than some protestant views. This has an influence on how you see the Church, and for that matter, unity. This is the cruxt of the matter.

 

[Asinner]

I agree completely that there is NOT unity in protestantism..

I experience wonderful unity in the body of Christ all the time

 

[ETide]

Disunity is the rotten apple of protestantim.

Here's a suggestion.. as long as you compare your church to their church.. you'll probably continue to miss "the" church.

Truly, without a doubt, there is one church, and it is Christ's church.. He has been building it since Pentacost.. He gave Himself for it.. He alone adds members to it, some plant, some water, but GOD gives the increase.. He baptizes every member into His body by His Spirit..

I fellowship with ~50-500 folks during the course of a year.. usually ~50 folks in our local assembly from week to week. THIS is a tiny portion of the body of Christ.. it would be ridiculous at best to claim that we're the church of God exclusively.. there are millions of members all over this planet that He has baptized into His body.. I'm privileged and blessed to know and fellowship with a few of them.. but that doesn't mean that we're the body of Christ in its entirety.. that would be silly and completely contrary to the scriptures.

Wrong. Anyone can claim to be the Church of God. As I stated previously, His Church is where the manifestation of Christ exists - Unity, Love, Virtue, Holiness, Catholicity, Apostolicity . . . The saints of Orthodoxy testify to this.

Yes, anyone can claim to be the church of God, and in this case, it's you folks.

Again, I will answer NO. I am the opposite.

And yet you claim to be a member of the body of Christ.. the church is not CHRIST, it is the BODY OF CHRIST, many members.. one body.. we're NOT GOD Asinner, He is. We're His body, His flesh and His bones..

His Spirit within us IS PERFECT, as it is the NEW MAN created in righteousness and true holiness.. but we still deal with sin and our old man.. he is decreasing, and Christ should be increasing.. if we're growing up into Him in all things..

Again, it is Christ's standard; for they are His Fruits which bear witness. I only testify to it.

I agree, and EVERY SINGLE born again Christ filled believer on this planet can produce the fruit of the Spirit, because they have CHRIST IN THEM.

That is because sola scriptura denies the visible, physical Church and makes Christ merely spiritual. A heresy already condemned. You don't see His Church in the scriptures because you don't want to see it. You prefer to lean on your understanding. All who interpret scriptures outside of the Church, interpret them with their passions. The result - DISUNITY and a mockery made of Christ. Two examples of this are a symbolic Eucharist and a symbolic Baptism. Both are physical AND spiritual, just as Christ is both God and Man. Can we reason the Incarnation and understand it? No. We can also not reason and understand His Holy Mysteries.

It all comes down to your claim that your orthodox church is the church of God.. if anyone says different, then they are told the things which you say to me here.. it's fine.. I understand that you're response is simply based upon your standard. It doesn't bother me, I simply try to help others see that it's different than this..

This does not negate where the fruits of the Spirit are manifest.

I Agree.. I see them all the time with fellow believers in Christ Jesus.

It is HUGE!!!! Salvation is found within His Church. Christ is not Buddha, and should never be reduced to a set of teachings. He rose from the dead, conquering death by death, and in Him is eternal life. This is not only a teaching, it becomes real within the Sacraments of His Church. Christ is tangible and spiritual.

SALVATION is found IN CHRIST and in HIS FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION.

As I mentioned before, it's ironic to me that the church which claims to be "the" church, can not assure anyone of their salvation, and you're saying that it's within the church..? ?

Would you say that you are just as Holy as John the Baptist, Paul, John the Apostle? These men were Holy, because of the Grace given them by Christ. Do you have this same Grace, Etide? Is it possible that some attain Virtue before others? I am far from Humble, far from Pure, far from exhibiting Meekness, Charity . . .

We all are far from it.. and yet many simply do not understand that they (ie, those IN CHRIST) are imputed with the righteousness of Christ.. this is so important, and yet many simply think that they attain their salvation through works.. good works in Christ are the RESULT of being saved and having CHRIST IN YOU..

I believe those who seek Him will find Him.

God Bless

And He saves those who diligently come to Him in faith.. and He will seek and save those who are not looking for Him, He is the Great Shepherd, no doubt about it.

 

[Asinner]

Ok, I have a lot or problems with the twisting of scripture here in this article.


"For some Christian bodies have come to stand dogmatically against Christ and the New Testament by refusing to bless her." She says the will call me blessed not bless her and pray to her. Do you really think that the foundation of Christ's teaching was to pray to mary? that goes against the rest of his teaching.

and the fact that the word until was used in other passages that say "until she died" doesn't mean that the until in matthew 1:25 ment that. It says he didn't know her[sexually] until after jesus was born. That sure sounds like she had sex...and there is nothing wrong if she did. Sex is a holy thing when done the way God intended. And they couldn't have been married if they didn't have sex.


please read Mark 7:1-13. Jesus talks about people doing this...I believe the orthodox church is doing this more than it is not.

If you are interested in the truth about Mary and what Orthodox Christians believe, please ask your questions here.

http://www.christianforums.com/f145-the-ancient-way-eastern-orthodox.html

God Bless

 

[ETide]

You will not understand if you believe the body of Christ is the orthodox church.. if you're understanding comes down to orthodox versus protestant.. etc.. then you don't understand what the body of Christ, His church, actually is.

 

[Theophorus]

Etide, the Church is communion with the Holy Trinity. The Church has always existed. It was made manifest at pentacost. Christ said to Paul that when he persecuted the Church, he persecuted Himself.

Look at that prayer again in John. That they may be one as He and the Father are one!

 

[Asinner]

You will not understand if you believe the body of Christ is the orthodox church.. if you're understanding comes down to orthodox versus protestant.. etc.. then you don't understand what the body of Christ, His church, actually is.

Etide

You made two distinctly opposite statements. I don't have to be Orthodox to see that.

God Bless