Epoch of Time

[Open Heart]

To date the State of California doesn't believe "Creationism" should be taught as "Science" in neighborhood Public Schools?

Of course not. Creationism is not Science. It is based on inductive reasoning and searching. You start with the conclusions (the world was created 6000 years ago in 6 days) and then go look for evidence to support that point. Science is deductive. You start with the evidence first, then reach conclusions.

I disagree with your definition of Creationism. By your definition, Theistic Evolution would be Creationism. And it's not. Creationism is the belief that God created the world in six days, without evolution, each kind of animal specifically created as it is.

The truth is that the overwhelming evidence proves that the world is billions of years old, and that life has changed slowly, in a punctuated manner, giving rise to increasingly complex life forms. This is indesputable. What is theoretical (the THEORY of evolution) is what drives this. Is is natural selection? Random mutation? Genetic drift? Some say God.

 

[Open Heart]

Yet, everything you have stated shows you clearly DO NOT understand the science.

Since you are qualified to teach science (but then this is more physic and math) please do explain time dilation as it pertains to the expansion of space/time.

I will stand beside what Schroeder has to say regarding the literal 6-day creation and how in fact it does not violate IN ANY way the observed age of the universe. Schroeder has his Phd in physic MIT, Phd in Earth Science MIT

Time Dilation:
Let's say you have two guys, and they are watching their watches. One is going super duper faster than the other. Time dilation is the difference in elapsed time that they notice.

An Earth Scientist is not an expert in the age of the universe. You need a Cosmologist if you are going to appeal to authority.

My aunt was a genius mathematician who was an aid to Hubble (the guy who discovered the Big Bang). Even though she was an Evangelical, she believed in an ancient universe, because that's what the evidence proved. I'm not appealing to her as an authority, but mentioning her as my mentor. She taught me that all truth is God's truth, so a real Christian never has to be afraid of what Science reveals.

 

[Halbhh]

The Wise and Foolish Builders

46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

1 John 2. 17. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.



Matthew 12:8
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”


Mark 2:28
So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”


Luke 6:5
Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”


The disciples did not break the Sabbath command, because they were getting something to eat, and not harvesting the field.



Mark 2:27
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.


Man, as in mankind. It does not say the Sabbath was made for the Jew, but mankind. The seventh day is Yahshua’s Sabbath.


Catholicism regarding the Sabbath

Different statements made by Catholic clergy regarding the Sabbath. Here are some quotes with their sources:

"It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. 'The day of the Lord' was chosen, not from any direction noted in the scriptures, but from the Catholic church's sense of its own power...People who think that the scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.



Do you pay homage to the Catholics by keeping a Sunday Sabbath?

Reading through all Christ said about the Sabbath including such things as certain kinds of working on the Sabbath..... To get the full picture, one needs to be reading through fully in the gospels. But to the point of whether Christ kept the Sabbath doing such things as work of healing and other examples He explained such as an ox fallen into a well, and more, you would more trust the text than me. To get the real flavor. Why He said things like, "Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man," finally is understood more fully by reading all of a gospel, fully.

 

[CherubRam]

Reading through all Christ said about the Sabbath including such things as certain kinds of working on the Sabbath..... To get the full picture, one needs to be reading through fully in the gospels. But to the point of whether Christ kept the Sabbath doing such things as work of healing and other examples He explained such as an ox fallen into a well, and more, you would more trust the text than me. To get the real flavor. Why He said things like, "Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man," finally is understood more fully by reading all of a gospel, fully.

Sabbath and the law


Romans 3:31. KJV
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Romans 3:31. NIV
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Do you uphold the law by keeping the Sabbath?

There are the laws of God, and there were the laws of the Pharisees. It was the laws and traditions of the Pharisees that Christ spoke against. Knowing the commands of God is a good teacher for living in the spirit of love.


1 John 5:3.
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,


2 John 1:6.
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


Look, the ones keeping the commandments are the ones getting into heaven.


Revelation 12:17.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yahshua Christ.


Revelation 14:12.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yahshua.


Revelation 22:14.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Christ and the disciples preached the keeping of the commands of God, but yet many who call themselves Christian seem to be teaching another message.

Grace: (In the Christian belief,) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

God's grace does not mean that you are to keep sinning by breaking God's commands.


Matthew 4:4.
Yahshua answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”


Exodus 20:8.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

 

[Halbhh]

Sabbath and the law


Romans 3:31. KJV
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Romans 3:31. NIV
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Do you uphold the law by keeping the Sabbath?

There are the laws of God, and there were the laws of the Pharisees. It was the laws and traditions of the Pharisees that Christ spoke against. Knowing the commands of God is a good teacher for living in the spirit of love.


1 John 5:3.
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,


2 John 1:6.
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


Look, the ones keeping the commandments are the ones getting into heaven.


Revelation 12:17.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yahshua Christ.


Revelation 14:12.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yahshua.


Revelation 22:14.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Christ and the disciples preached the keeping of the commands of God, but yet many who call themselves Christian seem to be teaching another message.

Grace: (In the Christian belief,) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

God's grace does not mean that you are to keep sinning by breaking God's commands.


Matthew 4:4.
Yahshua answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”


Exodus 20:8.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Amen. (Also, these are some of the most needed messages today in the world of Christianity)

We may already agree 100% on things that matter.

About the Sabbath -- Christ corrected the pharisees over and over, so many times, because they didn't know the true intent, the real spirit of the law, and preached just legalistic stuff as if the law were merely a show, or just for-show.

They didn't really get it.

It wasn't legalistic, but about time spent in rest, focused on the things of God, during a week.

This is why He points out to them such things as how any can correctly do the work on the (saturday, etc.) Sabbath of rescuing their own ox on a Sabbath from a well (Luke ch 14).

I don't presume you disagree on that. Someone earlier was worried about whether people keep a 'Saturday' Sabbath though. I think they could benefit from reading through Romans chapter 14 (and if they haven't, they could start on chapter 1 and read through).

 

[CherubRam]

Amen. (Also, these are some of the most needed messages today in the world of Christianity)

We may already agree 100% on things that matter.

About the Sabbath -- Christ corrected the pharisees over and over, so many times, because they didn't know the true intent, the real spirit of the law, and preached just legalistic stuff as if the law were merely a show, or just for-show.

They didn't really get it.

It wasn't legalistic, but about time spent in rest, focused on the things of God, during a week.

This is why He points out to them such things as how any can correctly do the work on the (saturday, etc.) Sabbath of rescuing their own ox on a Sabbath from a well (Luke ch 14).

I don't presume you disagree on that. Someone earlier was worried about whether people keep a 'Saturday' Sabbath though. I think they could benefit from reading through Romans chapter 14 (and if they haven't, they could start on chapter 1 and read through).

Priest Break Sabbath


Leviticus 22:9

“‘The priests are to perform my service in such a way that they do not become guilty and die for treating it with contempt. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.


Matthew 12:12

How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”


The priests in the temple break the Sabbath by performing their Sabbath duties, and yet are innocent.


Gentiles in Judaism were also called Israel and Israelites. The Gentiles had the same laws to observe as the Hebrew’s.


Kindling a fire in those days was done by rubbing two sticks together, for which is a great deal of work.

Romans 14 is about other Sabbath Days of rest.
Romans 14.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.



Other Sabbath Rest

Colossians 2:16 Commentary


Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

The Sabbath days spoken of here in Colossians, has to do with letting the land rest, mentioned in the scriptures below. It has nothing to do with God’s Seventh Day Sabbath; otherwise there would be a contradiction in the scriptures. The Seventh Day Sabbath is to be kept by all of mankind continually. It is also a sign of who God’s people are.




Exodus 23:10
[ Sabbath Laws ] “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops…


Leviticus 23:39
“‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of Sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of Sabbath rest.


Leviticus 25:1-2
[ The Sabbath Year ] The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a Sabbath to the Lord.


Leviticus 25:4
But in the seventh year the land is to have a year of Sabbath rest, a Sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards.


Leviticus 25:6
Whatever the land yields during the Sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your male and female servants, and


Leviticus 25:8
[ The Year of Jubilee ] “‘Count off seven Sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven Sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years.


Leviticus 26:34
Then the land will enjoy its Sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its Sabbaths.


Leviticus 26:35
All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the Sabbaths you lived in it.


Leviticus 26:43
For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees.


2 Chronicles 36:21
The land enjoyed its Sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah.

 

[CherubRam]

Seal of God.

In the scriptures Yahwah seals His people with His law.

Isaiah 8: 16
“Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.”


Revelation 7:2
Then I saw another messenger coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God.
Who is this person?


Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.


Hebrews 8: 10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahwah; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: And I will be there God, and they shall be my people:


Deuteronomy 6: 8
“And you shall bind them (the laws of God) for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be in your forehead between your eyes.” (Memory is in the forehead.)


According to Daniel, in chapter 7:25, the Beasts hatred is directed against the commandment dealing with time. This can only mean the Sabbath commandment, which alone deals with an element of time, the fourth commandment.


Daniel 7: 25
And he (the little Horn) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yahshua the Christ.


Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yahshua.


Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



Question: Why are there Christians who preach against the laws of God?


Exodus 13:9
And it shall be for a sign to you upon your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that Yahwah's law may be in your mouth:


Exodus 31:13
Speak to the children of Israel, saying, truly my Sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am Yahwah that sanctifies you.


Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days Yahwah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested,…




Gentile converts are a part of Israel in the body of believers.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


The Seal of God is His commandments in accord with the New Covenant, along with the testimony of Yahshua. P.S. Baptism is a testimony to Yahshua also.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I am certified by the State of California to teach Science in any self contained classroom.

Open Heart, I am curious how you, as a science teacher, look at other miracles in the Bible. Do you just take things on faith, or look for a scientific explanation? A mix of both?

 

[BukiRob]

Time Dilation:
Let's say you have two guys, and they are watching their watches. One is going super duper faster than the other. Time dilation is the difference in elapsed time that they notice.

An Earth Scientist is not an expert in the age of the universe. You need a Cosmologist if you are going to appeal to authority.

My aunt was a genius mathematician who was an aid to Hubble (the guy who discovered the Big Bang). Even though she was an Evangelical, she believed in an ancient universe, because that's what the evidence proved. I'm not appealing to her as an authority, but mentioning her as my mentor. She taught me that all truth is God's truth, so a real Christian never has to be afraid of what Science reveals.

Lets try this again, Dr Schroeder has his Phd in PHYSICS from MIT AND his Phd in Earth Science from MIT.

You STILL are not getting it. At the moment of the BIG bang the universe was tiny. Time is not a separate thing. It is SPACE/TIME as such, as the universe expanded TIME as a part of SPACE being expanded underwent Time dilation.

As we look back in time, at creation Day 1 APPEARS to us to have taken ~8 billion years. Day 2 appears to be ~ 4 billion years ago.

The redshift phenomenon that we observe that tells us that the universe is still expanding. Specifically, it is SPACE/TIME that is expanding this means that one day at Creation from G-d's perspective looking forward is still a 24 hour day but from OUR perspective looking back it is BILLIONS of years ago. If you truly understand time dialation and the expanding space you can see this is very simple to understand

 

[visionary]

Lets try this again, Dr Schroeder has his Phd in PHYSICS from MIT AND his Phd in Earth Science from MIT.

You STILL are not getting it. At the moment of the BIG bang the universe was tiny. Time is not a separate thing. It is SPACE/TIME as such, as the universe expanded TIME as a part of SPACE being expanded underwent Time dilation.

As we look back in time, at creation Day 1 APPEARS to us to have taken ~8 billion years. Day 2 appears to be ~ 4 billion years ago.

The redshift phenomenon that we observe that tells us that the universe is still expanding. Specifically, it is SPACE/TIME that is expanding this means that one day at Creation from G-d's perspective looking forward is still a 24 hour day but from OUR perspective looking back it is BILLIONS of years ago. If you truly understand time dialation and the expanding space you can see this is very simple to understand

From God's view at the time of creation, according to His time, it was as written. According to man, aka the MIT spew, time is not a hard and fast, but relative to point of view. As such, I think we should trust God on this, because any calculations contrary will ultimately fail in its scientific "proof".

 

[Open Heart]

Lets try this again, Dr Schroeder has his Phd in PHYSICS from MIT AND his Phd in Earth Science from MIT.

You STILL are not getting it. At the moment of the BIG bang the universe was tiny. Time is not a separate thing. It is SPACE/TIME as such, as the universe expanded TIME as a part of SPACE being expanded underwent Time dilation.

As we look back in time, at creation Day 1 APPEARS to us to have taken ~8 billion years. Day 2 appears to be ~ 4 billion years ago.

The redshift phenomenon that we observe that tells us that the universe is still expanding. Specifically, it is SPACE/TIME that is expanding this means that one day at Creation from G-d's perspective looking forward is still a 24 hour day but from OUR perspective looking back it is BILLIONS of years ago. If you truly understand time dialation and the expanding space you can see this is very simple to understand

Let's try this again. Your source is not a cosmologist. He's a geologist. Which means he's not an expert in this field. I'm going to listen to the experts. Got it?

 

[visionary]

Of course not. Creationism is not Science. It is based on inductive reasoning and searching. You start with the conclusions (the world was created 6000 years ago in 6 days) and then go look for evidence to support that point. Science is deductive. You start with the evidence first, then reach conclusions.

I disagree with your definition of Creationism. By your definition, Theistic Evolution would be Creationism. And it's not. Creationism is the belief that God created the world in six days, without evolution, each kind of animal specifically created as it is.

The truth is that the overwhelming evidence proves that the world is billions of years old, and that life has changed slowly, in a punctuated manner, giving rise to increasingly complex life forms. This is indesputable. What is theoretical (the THEORY of evolution) is what drives this. Is is natural selection? Random mutation? Genetic drift? Some say God.

Science is not necessarily based on facts alone, since they base a lot on their theory [faith].

 

[BukiRob]

Let's try this again. Your source is not a cosmologist. He's a geologist. Which means he's not an expert in this field. I'm going to listen to the experts. Got it?

WRONG.

He is a PHYSICIST who TAUGHT Physics at MIT. He also happens to have a Ph.D. in Earth science.
He is EMINENTLY more qualified to speak on the topic than you.
As I have stated, the facts regarding time dilation and how a LITERAL 6-day creation is in perfect harmony with the observed age of the universe

 

[BukiRob]

From God's view at the time of creation, according to His time, it was as written. According to man, aka the MIT spew, time is not a hard and fast, but relative to point of view. As such, I think we should trust God on this, because any calculations contrary will ultimately fail in its scientific "proof".

Oy vie! THEY ARE 1 in the same!!! We see 13.8 billion years because we are looking BACK THROUGH TIME.
The universe is 14 billon years old as measured from the time-space coordinates of the earth; that is, as measured from our view, our location, within the universe. But there is an aspect of the universe that changes the perception of the timing of events when those events are viewed, not “on location,” but from afar, across a great galactic distance. That is the stretching of space.

http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=53

I cite Schroeder because he DOES have the scientific background to speak on the topic and he is a lifelong student of the Torah:

Schroeder’s formal theological training in biblical, Talmudic and kabbalistic interpretation includes fifteen years of study under the late Rabbi Herman Pollack, Rabbi Chaim Brovender and Rabbi Noah Weinberg, of blessed memory.

He marries the science with a Hebraic understanding of Torah.

 

[visionary]

Oy vie! THEY ARE 1 in the same!!! We see 13.8 billion years because we are looking BACK THROUGH TIME.
The universe is 14 billon years old as measured from the time-space coordinates of the earth; that is, as measured from our view, our location, within the universe. But there is an aspect of the universe that changes the perception of the timing of events when those events are viewed, not “on location,” but from afar, across a great galactic distance. That is the stretching of space.

The Age of the Universe | Gerald Schroeder

I cite Schroeder because he DOES have the scientific background to speak on the topic and he is a lifelong student of the Torah:

Schroeder’s formal theological training in biblical, Talmudic and kabbalistic interpretation includes fifteen years of study under the late Rabbi Herman Pollack, Rabbi Chaim Brovender and Rabbi Noah Weinberg, of blessed memory.

He marries the science with a Hebraic understanding of Torah.

I didn't argue with you, I stated I am staying with the way God sees it and states it.

 

[CherubRam]

The heavens were created before the earth was. The earth was a body of water without form when God came upon it. That means the sun was already present in order for it to be a liquid form. Could God have created the earth in a literal six days, yes; but there was no reason to do so. And besides that, how long was the water present before adding a firmament. The creation days are most certainly epochs of time. Time is the progression of events, and then there is also man made time. Progression of time existed before God formed; otherwise God would not have formed if this was not true.

 

[Open Heart]

WRONG.

He is a PHYSICIST who TAUGHT Physics at MIT. He also happens to have a Ph.D. in Earth science.
He is EMINENTLY more qualified to speak on the topic than you.
As I have stated, the facts regarding time dilation and how a LITERAL 6-day creation is in perfect harmony with the observed age of the universe

I'm going to say this one final time and then I'm going to ignore any response from you. The man is not a Cosmologist.

 

[Open Heart]

Science is not necessarily based on facts alone, since they base a lot on their theory [faith].

What are you talking about? Science doesn't "based stuff on their theory." Rather, they base their theories on evidence.

 

[visionary]

What are you talking about? Science doesn't "based stuff on their theory." Rather, they base their theories on evidence.

Faith in scientists who can not even profess faith in creation, sure do manipulate their facts to proof otherwise... that is the way it works.

 

[BukiRob]

I'm going to say this one final time and then I'm going to ignore any response from you. The man is not a Cosmologist.

Was Einstien a cosmologist? NOPE. Yet cosmology is founded on much of his work