Epoch of Time

[chunkofcoal]

It's not about what we know. It's about
believing what God said. If you don't
believe him for one thing, why another?

Good point. I was reading Amos 4:7-8 and thinking a lot of people don't seem to believe that God controls the weather - now it's all about "climate change."

And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered. So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
(Amo 4:7-8)

 

[BukiRob]

God created in 6 days things that take millions or billions of years. In our time there are actually 6 days, but each day may contain millions or billions of years of creation.

IMO this is an erroneous view. G-d created in 6, 24 hour days.

The problem is that the vast majority of people look at an observed age of the universe of between ~16-14 billion years and assume in error that the Bible has to be wrong.

Genesis in the first days of creation is looking at things from G-d's perspective which, is a perspective of creation looking forward in time. We, on the other hand, are observing time from our point in space looking back. 99.9% of people fail to consider the reality of time dilation when attempting to reconcile a literal 6-day creation and the observed age of the universe.

In other words, Bible looks at: creation -----> through time. We observe: creation <------- present.

The redshift phenomenon that tells us that space and the universe itself is expanding (and indeed accelerating its rate of expansion.) workes the same way when we observe time looking back towards the creation of the universe. By the way, I use the word creation intentionally because there is no question concerning the creation of the universe the only argument is what caused its creation.

The relationship between the expansion of the universe and time is exponential, NOT linear. In other words when we look at day 1 from OUR perspective its duration, because of time dilation, lasted ~8 billion years, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE LOOKING BACK.

You actually have it backward. G-d used 6, 24 hour LITERAL DAYS to create. Day one lasted ~8 billion years from our perspective, Day 2 lasted ~4 billion years, Day 3 lasted ~2 billion years, Day 4 ~1 billion years, Day 5 ~ 1/2 of a billion years.... again these are 24 HOUR DAYS but from our perspective looking back as a result of the dilation of time they are observed as enormous amounts of time.

This actually is shown in scripture in Ps 104
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
2 covering yourself with light as with a garment,
stretching out the heavens like a tent.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I read an article about scientists studying "retrocausality" "which basically proposes that the future can influence the past and the effect, in essence, happens before the cause."

If scientists are still studying time, that means they don't understand time. I think if scientists don't understand time, then they can't say for certain that God didn't create the world in 6 days.

A New Quantum Theory Predicts That the Future Could Be Influencing the Past

 

[Open Heart]

I read an article about scientists studying "retrocausality" "which basically proposes that the future can influence the past and the effect, in essence, happens before the cause."

If scientists are still studying time, that means they don't understand time. I think if scientists don't understand time, then they can't say for certain that God didn't create the world in 6 days.

A New Quantum Theory Predicts That the Future Could Be Influencing the Past

I think that saying we don't understand time and causality, and saying the world was created in six 24 hour days is a huge leap.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I think that saying we don't understand time and causality, and saying the world was created in six 24 hour days is a huge leap.

You don't believe God created the world in 6 days?

 

[Open Heart]

You don't believe God created the world in 6 days?

I absolutely believe that God created the universe. I believe its been some 13 billion years since He did that in the Big Bang. It's been around 4.5 billion years since the earth was formed. Genesis 1 is a creative way of telling us that God created everything, did it in an orderly fashion, and that it was good. I believe it.

 

[Laureate]

Thank you for pointing out that particular thing that the phrasing about a day being a thousand years may not be only figuratively meaning a very long time of indeterminate length, but could mean something more specific possibly. Either way, we can be assured, even if it means only an undetermined long time. It's good to remember not to get too caught up in ever trying to predict the month or year though. We have real challenges, most of us, each day, to stay on the narrow road, and our need to confess, and pray, and look to Him, each day. That is, today, and also specifically tomorrow also, Tuesday, should it arrive first.

True that, first things first, but not all are still wrestling with their faith, some have overcome and moved on to the joys of liberal study, where prayer continues as we continue to grow on the path.

A day equating to a thousand years in the eyes of our Sovereign Author is a scriptural Fact, whereas the viewing of that passage to indicate an 'indeterminate length of time' (though it may be popular in some circles) it is purely interpretative without Scriptural support.

 

[Laureate]

I hope it never sounds like I'm saying something like "it has to be this way, and not that way". That's the thing I want us to examine actually!

For instance, I try to be sure to point out over and over Mat 7:24-27 as the only way to endure, so that if one side is proven wrong on such minor issues of precisely what God did in small details not in the text (which of course we can't know every small detail), they won't then be lost by having the basis of their faith house destroyed.

If we are doing as Christ said in Matthew 7, we are on the Rock, and cannot be destroyed. I only enter these evolution discussions because I truly want to be sure all my brothers and sisters are only building their faith on the Rock, alone, and not even one tiny bit on anything other than only the rock of hearing and putting His words into practice.

It's not Jesus first, and then creation doctrine B2 instead of A3. It's Jesus first, and in the middle, and in the end.

We should not worry or be dogmatic about small details we can't be totally sure of, because they are not in the text! We should only present our interpretations as our interpretations, and not more than our interpretations. Saying they are our interpretations, and not too important!

True, however when an interpretation is purely Scriptural, in that it is not a man who said, A day is as a thousand years, (and as a complete night watch) in the sight of our Sovereign Author, it should be taken to heart as True;

On day one the Light of Day was established, this Light is evidently the Sun, the two Great Lights mentioned on day four contextually pertains unto the Northern and Southern Lights of the poles which do actually regulate the rotation and velocity of our planet and thereby Governs Night and Day, as well as the seasons.

In short, the scriptures pertaining to the Days of Creation clearly indicate a Day as reckoned by the rotation of the Sun.

Nonetheless time is completely a relative factor, meaning, the Observation point of our Sovereign Author throughout creation was either a thousand light years away in distance, or it's equivalent in the microscopic present sense, where Light years equates to Life years, in essence there are molecules that actually perceive a thousand years where we only perceive a 24 hour day.

Because our Author is omni present, I believe He was viewing from both the micro and macro observation points.

Yet when our Master says He shall return in three days, the Spiritual connotation is three thousand years, as the Carnal connotation is 72 hours.

 

[Halbhh]

is as

"is as" though means like unto normally. Yes, it could be "is as" = "is" -- that's possible, unknown -- but it's more normal reading to read "is as" to be "like as if" or "like unto"

About the unimportant matter of how I understand Genesis chapter 1 about the minor details of mere time durations (as contrasted to the profoundly relevant actual meaning which is unconnected to time duration to me), I think the days were actual real days, individual ones, given, seen, in a vision. Actual days. With time gaps between them also. Of course, this could be wrong, and that would not even matter. I don't preach time durations, but occasionally do want people to realize that time durations are understood differently by different believers, so that they don't wrongly think only if they believe theory A3 they are authentic believers in God.

 

[Laureate]

Don't think to say what God did in small detail more than we can be sure of -- for instance we haven't any wording at all about how much time passed during Gen 1:1. Here's what I'm trying to say --

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

It's a strong message to us not to think we know all things He has done, or how He might do things!

We simply do not know with total certainty whether He used evolution or did not and merely made it appear as if evolution happened so in order that we must have real faith, and not merely easy proof of such facts in an easy, outright way from scripture, which would preclude faith. For instance, if scripture did reveal in a simple, clear outright way that the Earth was "4.55 billion years old", then once science saw that it appears just exactly that old (ever since the 1950s), then we'd not even need faith, or rather, we'd simply know without any faith!

Yet faith itself is a profound value, as we see in scripture, such as in Hebrews chapter 11.

"And out of the ground (Î)yéhûʷəʰ Elohéyîm formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." [Genesis 2:19]

Just like Adam, the Beast were formed from the Earth, one either believes or they do not, the Evolution theory has us all evolving from a sea creature evolving unto a land creature, accepting the scriptural report also requires faith that it is true.

 

[BukiRob]

I absolutely believe that God created the universe. I believe its been some 13 billion years since He did that in the Big Bang. It's been around 4.5 billion years since the earth was formed. Genesis 1 is a creative way of telling us that God created everything, did it in an orderly fashion, and that it was good. I believe it.

Pretty clear that you absolutely do not understand the science.

You are not considering time dilation or how in fact a LITERAL 6 day, 24 hour day can 100% be PROVEN to be accurate AND the OBSERVED age of the universe be ~14 billion years old.

You like MANY do not even understand the OBSERVED age of the universe is from OUR point in space. You seemingly do not understand that Genesis is giving us an account of the first 6 days from G-d's perspective looking FORWARD in time while you, I and everyone else is looking BACK through time.

 

[Halbhh]

"And out of the ground (Î)yéhûʷəʰ Elohéyîm formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." [Genesis 2:19]

Just like Adam, the Beast were formed from the Earth, one either believes or they do not, the Evolution theory has us all evolving from a sea creature evolving unto a land creature, accepting the scriptural report also requires faith that it is true.

But God made all things, and all animals are in fact, factually, of the substance of the Earth. They are truly in essence from the ground, made of the molecules in dirt, under our feet, right now.

The same atoms and molecules literally under your feet right now -- those very same were at times in animals, constituting them, and will be again.

Factually.

And God made them all. See? There isn't anything contradicting such as "guided evolution" there in the text.

I'm saying we should not dare to risk accidentally blocking some seekers from finding Christ with some whatever theory we prefer about precisely how God created as if we ourselves know all things. We should not dare. What is in Genesis chapter 1 through 3 is that God made all things. All we see He made. All is His design.

Physics -- is His design!

But what is not in Genesis chapter 1 through 3 is precise details. When we talk about those, it's beside the point of the text. To get the point of the text, we must read with a listening mind, laying aside our own thinking about this and that, whatever, and truly hear the words, without doctrines as our goal.

 

[Halbhh]

Pretty clear that you absolutely do not understand the science.

You are not considering time dilation or how in fact a LITERAL 6 day, 24 hour day can 100% be PROVEN to be accurate AND the OBSERVED age of the universe be ~14 billion years old.

You like MANY do not even understand the OBSERVED age of the universe is from OUR point in space. You seemingly do not understand that Genesis is giving us an account of the first 6 days from G-d's perspective looking FORWARD in time while you, I and everyone else is looking BACK through time.

It's crucial to remember we can only endure in faith solely by doing this Christ said to us about how to endure --

Matthew 7:24-27

There is no other way to make it through the storms that will always come in life.

What words of His does He mean? Those in the gospels -- the actual words He spoke to you and to me, that we might listen, and hear, and follow.


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

 

[Laureate]

But God made all things, and all animals are in fact, factually, of the substance of the Earth. They are truly in essence from the ground, made of the molecules in dirt, under our feet, right now.

The same atoms and molecules literally under your feet right now -- those very same were at times in animals, constituting them, and will be again.

Factually.

And God made them all. See? There isn't anything contradicting such as "guided evolution" there in the text.

I'm saying we should not dare to risk accidentally blocking some seekers from finding Christ with some whatever theory we prefer about precisely how God created as if we ourselves know all things. We should not dare. What is in Genesis chapter 1 through 3 is that God made all things. Period. But what is not in Genesis chapter 1 through 3 is precise details.

Agreed!
I was referring to the Theory of Evolution, not Evolving processes which clearly do exist.

 

[Laureate]

It's crucial to remember we can only endure in faith solely by doing this Christ said to us about how to endure --

Matthew 7:24-27

There is no other way to make it through the storms that will always come in life.

What words of His does He mean? Those in the gospels -- the actual words He spoke to you and to me, that we might listen, and hear, and follow.


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

We are to Identify and Follow his Actual Voice which speaks from the bosom of our Father and our repented hearts, for he is the Messenger of the (New) Covenant.

 

[Laureate]

But God made all things, and all animals are in fact, factually, of the substance of the Earth. They are truly in essence from the ground....

Everything that was Created has it's origin אל הים 'From the Sea', yet the Sea and Subterranean Earth were not Spoken into Existence though they were formed from His Being.

 

[Halbhh]

We are to Identify and Follow his Actual Voice which speaks from the bosom of our Father and our repented hearts, for he is the Messenger of the (New) Covenant.

It's a very good thing for anyone to hear and know -- that the 4 accounts we have, the gospels, are real accounts of His Words to us, spoken in order that we would listen, and hear, and be saved. Now, because we believe in Him, we will want to read, listen, and hear all that Jesus said to us.

His Words to us in the gospels are forever, and we will live by them in the age to come --

33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

[Laureate]

"is as" though means like unto normally. Yes, it could be "is as" = "is" -- that's possible, unknown -- but it's more normal reading to read "is as" to be "like as if" or "like unto"

About the unimportant matter of how I understand Genesis chapter 1 about the minor details of mere time durations (as contrasted to the profoundly relevant actual meaning which is unconnected to time duration to me), I think the days were actual real days, individual ones, given, seen, in a vision. Actual days. With time gaps between them also. Of course, this could be wrong, and that would not even matter. I don't preach time durations, but occasionally do want people to realize that time durations are understood differently by different believers, so that they don't wrongly think only if they believe theory A3 they are authentic believers in God.

'Like unto' is a biblical reference for comparison, seeing how the Scriptures are Two edged Both Carnal (Nature) and Spiritual, we learn this by careful examination of the Parable of the Sower.

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" [John 3:12]

I agree however, too many are willing to throw the Baby out with the Bath water, just because one may be mistaken as it pertains to a revelation does not mean their entire understanding is amiss.

On the other hand, too many believe they can attain unto the Truth of Salvation without Growing in their Continuance of the Word.

Too many say, All one needs to know is... (fill in the blank), yet leave out..

"
"Bind up the Testimony, seal the Torah among my disciples.
To the Torah and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light rising nor dawning upon them." [Isaiah 8:16 & 20]

Any Creed short of this is Depraved.

 

[Laureate]

It's a very good thing for anyone to hear and know -- that the 4 accounts we have, the gospels, are real accounts of His Words to us, spoken in order that we would listen, and hear, and be saved. Now, because we believe in Him, we will want to read, listen, and hear all that Jesus said to us.

His Words to us in the gospels are forever, and we will live by them in the age to come --

33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is true, but lacks the acknowledgement of the New Covenant.

 

[Halbhh]

'Like unto' is a biblical reference for comparison, seeing how the Scriptures are Two edged Both Carnal (Nature) and Spiritual, we learn this by careful examination of the Parable of the Sower.

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" [John 3:12]

I agree however, too many are willing to throw the Baby out with the Bath water, just because one may be mistaken as it pertains to a revelation does not mean their entire understanding is amiss.

On the other hand, too many believe they can attain unto the Truth of Salvation without Growing in their Continuance of the Word.

Too many say, All one needs to know is... (fill in the blank), yet leave out..

"
"Bind up the Testimony, seal the Torah among my disciples.
To the Torah and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light rising nor dawning upon them." [Isaiah 8:16 & 20]

Any Creed short of this is Depraved.

We are indeed to learn from John 3:12. Let's listen --

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a ”

4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritbgives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”d

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.e 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,f 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”g