Ephesians 2:8

[Ghost air]

I don't think that alone is what's going on, no. I think God also creates ex nihilo a different will in the elect.

Yes, although it is the bottom line so to speak, the heart of the matter.

As you must know by now, any doctrine that's been "summed up" has been falsified to the extent that it's been reduced.

Summed up with respect to the bottom line, that's all.

This is purely the difference between the views. To consider it the sole element of salvation, and the sole summary of salvation in Reformed thought: that's silly.

Nobody said that it was the sole element, I was talking about the bottom line... and that bottom line pretty much sums up reformed thought in my opinion, just as he says... 'God tickles the willer of the elect'...

Not the case. They have every control. All are uniformly unwilling.

Okay, that's fine, everyone is unwilling unless God makes them willing.

Inability of will is not incapacity. It's unwillingness.

Again, that's great, and everyone is unwilling until God makes them willing, again, I get it. To me, it's not that complicated, and it can basically be understood by its bottom line, which is that man will not believe until God regenerates him so that he will believe... that's consistent with God tickles the willer of the elect imo.

Enjoy !

 

[Benefactor]

Regardless of all the commentary the bottom line is that faith is first and regeneration / salvation is second. Whatever opening of the heart and eyes there is prior to regeneration is not regeneration because faith must be first as the Scripture teaches and regeneration / salvation second.

 

[DeaconDean]

Regardless of all the commentary the bottom line is that faith is first and regeneration / salvation is second. Whatever opening of the heart and eyes there is prior to regeneration is not regeneration because faith must be first as the Scripture teaches and regeneration / salvation second.

Your opinion. Not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[archierieus]

Your opinion. Not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Nothing in Scripture, no doctrine, not even the existence of God, is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. The 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard is applied in criminal cases. This is not a criminal case.

God has left room for a person to exercise faith or, to not exercise faith, according to what his or her choice may be. That is part of giving freedom to choose. God does not compel people to accept Him. He leave them plenty of 'wiggle room' if they don't want to.

 

[A New Dawn]

Nothing in Scripture, no doctrine, not even the existence of God, is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. The 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard is applied in criminal cases. This is not a criminal case.

God has left room for a person to exercise faith or, to not exercise faith, according to what his or her choice may be. That is part of giving freedom to choose. God does not compel people to accept Him. He leave them plenty of 'wiggle room' if they don't want to.

Lots of scripture has been provided that shows that God unilaterally works on individuals. None has been offered to show that man makes the decision independent of God's workings.

 

[archierieus]

Lots of scripture has been provided that shows that God unilaterally works on individuals. None has been offered to show that man makes the decision independent of God's workings.

Different issue. God initiates at every step. Man responds to God's initiative. Every day of life and every breath we take is directly due to 'God's workings.' No one I am aware of has suggested that man does anything 'independent of God's workings.'

But none of that takes away from the fact that God, in the exercise of His sovereignty, has created man with, and given man, the freedom to make a choice.

 

[Hammster]

Different issue. God initiates at every step. Man responds to God's initiative. Every day of life and every breath we take is directly due to 'God's workings.' No one I am aware of has suggested that man does anything 'independent of God's workings.'



But none of that takes away from the fact that God, in the exercise of His sovereignty, has created man with, and given man, the freedom to make a choice.

How does man's fallen nature affect his choices?

 

[archierieus]

How does man's fallen nature affect his choices?

Whatever the answer may be to : that question, on a philosophical level, what we DO know for sure is that God calls us to choose whom we will follow, serve and obey: "Choose you this day whom ye will serve . . ." And that theme continues throughout Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Whatever the answer may be to : that question, on a philosophical level, what we DO know for sure is that God calls us to choose whom we will follow, serve and obey: "Choose you this day whom ye will serve . . ." And that theme continues throughout Scripture.

So you think it is a philosophical question? Interesting.

 

[Benefactor]

Lots of scripture has been provided that shows that God unilaterally works on individuals. None has been offered to show that man makes the decision independent of God's workings.

Man's free will, which has been spoken of, referenced from Scripture and established as God's purpose for man in time and space is not independent of God, it is God's design. Calvinism can't see this because to do so would mean it would have to deny what is or forsake its position.


Examples of free will:

John 11:45 "put their faith in Him" (man exersizing free will)

John 12:36 "Put your trust in the light ...." (Jesus / God asking sinner man to make a choice)

John 12:42 "Yet at the same time many .... believed in Him." (some rejected and some did not reject)

Acts 5 "believed in the Lord"

Acts 6:7 "obedient to the faith"

Acts 7 39 "they rejected him"

Acts 10:35 "who fear and do what is right"

Acts 11:21 "turned and believed in the Lord"

Acts 14:2 "refused to believe"

Acts 15:19 "not make it difficult for Gentiles who are turning to God"

Acts 16:30 "what must I do to be saved" faith first / saved second and that which is saved has been regenerated and that which is regenerated is saved and faith is first.

Acts 17:12 Jews and Greeks believed

Acts 17: 27 "so that man would seek him and perhaps reach out"

Romans 2:8 "reject the truth"

Romans 4:5 "the faith of him for righteousness" faith first righteousness right after

I Timothy 2:4 "wishes to save all men" This can't be true if it is not true. It is true because God desires it. To say that it can't be true is to deny this Scripture, The God I serve can't lie. Freedom ot reject or receive is God's plan for sinner man.

As illustrated a small representation of scripture that teach free will.

 

[Hammster]

And as demonstrated clearly by Benefactor, the reformed view is either completely misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented.

 

[Benefactor]

And as demonstrated clearly by Benefactor, the reformed view is either completely misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented.

Posturing, Grandstanding

Ephesians 2:8 is one of the strongest verses against Calvinism in the Bible. It takes great effort by Calvinist to explain away the meaning of words and their relationship with each other, not to mention the vast evidence that supports faith first and salvation second.

The challenged is this: Produce one verse that refutes what Jesus said which agrees with Paul's statement in Titus 3:5 Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman "your faith has saved you"

Eph. 2:8 tells us that we are saved by God's grace and through faith, the faith Jesus told the woman that saved her. The same faith that Paul's speake of Romans 10.

Produce a scripture that teaches, once and for all, that what Jesus said is not true. Produce one scripture that refutes that Titus 3:5 is not true. Jesus told the woman "your faith saved you" Paul told us that a saved person has experienced "the Holy Spirit's washing of regeneration and renewing" which is "saved". Take these verses and prove that what it says is not what it means. To do that would be like saying that "water is not wet".

Jesus told the woman that her faith resulted in saved and saved is after faith and saved is the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

What will it be: More posturing or Proof, more avoidance of facts leading to fiction.

 

[A New Dawn]

Man's free will, which has been spoken of, referenced from Scripture and established as God's purpose for man in time and space is not independent of God, it is God's design. Calvinism can't see this because to do so would mean it would have to deny what is or forsake its position.


Examples of free will:

John 11:45 "put their faith in Him" (man exersizing free will)

John 12:36 "Put your trust in the light ...." (Jesus / God asking sinner man to make a choice)

John 12:42 "Yet at the same time many .... believed in Him." (some rejected and some did not reject)

Acts 5 "believed in the Lord"

Acts 6:7 "obedient to the faith"

Acts 7 39 "they rejected him"

Acts 10:35 "who fear and do what is right"

Acts 11:21 "turned and believed in the Lord"

Acts 14:2 "refused to believe"

Acts 15:19 "not make it difficult for Gentiles who are turning to God"

Acts 16:30 "what must I do to be saved" faith first / saved second and that which is saved has been regenerated and that which is regenerated is saved and faith is first.

Acts 17:12 Jews and Greeks believed

Acts 17: 27 "so that man would seek him and perhaps reach out"

Romans 2:8 "reject the truth"

Romans 4:5 "the faith of him for righteousness" faith first righteousness right after

I Timothy 2:4 "wishes to save all men" This can't be true if it is not true. It is true because God desires it. To say that it can't be true is to deny this Scripture, The God I serve can't lie. Freedom ot reject or receive is God's plan for sinner man.

As illustrated a small representation of scripture that teach free will.

Nobody said that there isn't an acceptance or rejection, what we keep pointing out is that there isn't, and can't be, a choice for something that is not in our nature to make. We can't choose to accept Christ until our nature has been redeemed, and only then can we choose to accept or reject. But until then, everything that happens is directed by our fallen nature, and it will always be rejection. As Romans 3 clearly points out. There are none that are good, there are none that seek Christ. No. Not. One.

 

[Hammster]

Posturing, Grandstanding



Ephesians 2:8 is one of the strongest verses against Calvinism in the Bible. It takes great effort by Calvinist to explain away the meaning of words and their relationship with each other, not to mention the vast evidence that supports faith first and salvation second.



The challenged is this: Produce one verse that refutes what Jesus said which agrees with Paul's statement in Titus 3:5 Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman "your faith has saved you"



Eph. 2:8 tells us that we are saved by God's grace and through faith, the faith Jesus told the woman that saved her. The same faith that Paul's speake of Romans 10.



Produce a scripture that teaches, once and for all, that what Jesus said is not true. Produce one scripture that refutes that Titus 3:5 is not true. Jesus told the woman "your faith saved you" Paul told us that a saved person has experienced "the Holy Spirit's washing of regeneration and renewing" which is "saved". Take these verses and prove that what it says is not what it means. To do that would be like saying that "water is not wet".



Jesus told the woman that her faith resulted in saved and saved is after faith and saved is the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.



What will it be: More posturing or Proof, more avoidance of facts leading to fiction.

I can't find any verses that disprove what Jesus said. That's like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife yet. But there are plenty of verses that disprove your misunderstanding of what Jesus meant.

 

[Benefactor]

I can't find any verses that disprove what Jesus said. That's like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife yet. But there are plenty of verses that disprove your misunderstanding of what Jesus meant.

Glad to hear that there is agreement in what Jesus and Paul state. There are no passages that refute what they say. What is it that they say?

Luke 7:50 says "Woman your faith has saved you" (saved because of faith) that is clear.

Titus 3:5 Saved according to the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Who did the saving? The Holy Spirit

Who did He save us by the washing of regeneration and renewing

In that one can't be saved according to Jesus unless they have faith then faith is first as stated by Jesus in Luke 7:50 and Saved as a result.

Now saved is defined or described as the work of the Holy Spirit in the washing of regeneration and renewing.

There are no verses in the Bible that refute this, no not one.

 

[A New Dawn]

Glad to hear that there is agreement in what Jesus and Paul state. There are no passages that refute what they say. What is it that they say?

Luke 7:50 says "Woman your faith has saved you" (saved because of faith) that is clear.

Titus 3:5 Saved according to the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Who did the saving? The Holy Spirit

Who did He save us by the washing of regeneration and renewing

In that one can't be saved according to Jesus unless they have faith then faith is first as stated by Jesus in Luke 7:50 and Saved as a result.

Now saved is defined or described as the work of the Holy Spirit in the washing of regeneration and renewing.

There are no verses in the Bible that refute this, no not one.

So, it's not Christ who saves, it is our faith?

 

[Hammster]

So Jesus didn't save the woman in Luke 7:50? I noticed you added your interpretation of what that means. But where did you get that from the text, as it reads?

 

[Benefactor]

So Jesus didn't save the woman in Luke 7:50? I noticed you added your interpretation of what that means. But where did you get that from the text, as it reads?

Answered as expected, continued avoidance

 

[Benefactor]

So, it's not Christ who saves, it is our faith?

Lets see what the verse clearly says:

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

According to Luke 7:50 what saved the woman? Faith

 

[Hammster]

Answered as expected, continued avoidance

Well, you can avoid all you want, but the question still stands.