• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,211
16,691
55
USA
✟420,610.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Nah. I don't know anything about Barandes, other than that he dared to mention a few key tropes in line with the main "BEEF" in my OP.
Just pickin' out videos and startin' new threads to express your personal "beefs" again. As I suspected.
This thread isn't about religion, so you needn't worry about having to spend the extra time wrapping. This thread is simply about Philosophy (epistemology) and science, which the Stanford article on Einstein gets into.
I watched it again, and didn't get much about Einstein from it. (Not a whole lot of 'there" there anyway in the video to even talk about.)
But, on the other hand, if none of this is interesting to you and you have some t.v. shows to watch, feel free to enjoy your evening. ;)
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,951
11,690
Space Mountain!
✟1,378,916.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Just pickin' out videos and startin' new threads to express your personal "beefs" again. As I suspected.

I watched it again, and didn't get much about Einstein from it. (Not a whole lot of 'there" there anyway in the video to even talk about.)

I wasn't talking about the video, Hans. There is also (A--L--S--O) a link to the main point of this thread. Don't tell me you don't see it in the OP.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Raised by bees
Mar 11, 2017
22,211
16,691
55
USA
✟420,610.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I wasn't talking about the video, Hans. There is also (A--L--S--O) a link to the main point of this thread. Don't tell me you don't see it in the OP.
Perhaps in posts/threads with a main point you shouldn't include multiple sources, particularly shiney moving image sources that distract.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
5,834
4,736
✟352,933.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Barandes is a Christian? I didn't hear anything in his interview that would suggest that. (I could be that "void" mentioned that when posting it.) He just sounded like one of those "philosophy first" types.

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around religion w/o some sort of deity or entity, even if it is not worshiped.

DeepSeek sounds like a perfect CF poster.
I was looking for information about his background and not necessarily focussing on Christianity.
A hint of his background is found in a presentation he gave on "Why We Shouldn't Believe in Hilbert Spaces Anymore," which is yet another QM interpretation but based on Platonism.

With regards to DeepSeek at least it is not one of those extreme CF posters..............
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,233
✟218,050.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Needling a bit more, because you seem to think Metaphysics is navel gazing, are you thinking of Metaphysics as a part of the discipline of Philosophy or more like the Metaphysics section of your local bookstore where the really strange books are found? The local bookstore Metaphysics section is pretty much always distinct from the Philosophy section. So what does Metaphysics mean to you?
The idea that, say, truth is objective, say, is still a metaphysical assumption. Personally speaking I prefer the approach of simply enforcing a line between what we hold as true based on evidence, and what we hold as true based on choice. The two are different, and have different domains of applicability, but in their own domains, each is valid. Objective truth is valid in the domain of objective outcomes, and truth-by-faith is valid in the domain of subjective relationships. Even concepts like 'I am me' and 'I matter' are members of the latter domain, there is no objective evidence to support either of those contentions .. in the realm of objective outcomes, all we can say is 'minds consider themselves to have a separate existence from their environment, whether they really do or not' and 'everything is objective process, a life matters no more than a rock rolling down a hill'. I would reject that, and say that metaphysics is an effort to establish what we would demand to be true simply because we have the power to so demand, it is the use of our intellect to do what is in some sense the right of a sentient being to do .. to believe in something. It just isn't science, so it does not project anything testable onto objective outcomes .. that doesn't necessarily make it invalid where, say, poetry and art may retain their validity for other reasons, (see AJ Ayer footnote in reference).

Whilst my own overall goal in this in this forum is mostly to banish metaphysics from science, Ayer's goal, say, seems to be to also banish it from both art and philosophy, on grounds that all philosophy should be the same as science, and art should not sound like wrangling over the truth of logical propositions. Implicit in this conclusion is Ayer's conviction that no philosophical axioms should be metaphysical in nature .. except the one that seems to be saying that, in terms of objective knowledge, 'logical positivism is our only axiom'(?)

Footnote:
“The elimination of metaphysics”, Language Truth and Logic by A J Ayre.
 
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
5,834
4,736
✟352,933.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Needling a bit more, because you seem to think Metaphysics is navel gazing, are you thinking of Metaphysics as a part of the discipline of Philosophy or more like the Metaphysics section of your local bookstore where the really strange books are found? The local bookstore Metaphysics section is pretty much always distinct from the Philosophy section. So what does Metaphysics mean to you?
Metaphysics is a branch of Philosophy and I did answer your question from a science perspective.
There is nothing wrong with the questions posed in metaphysics except they cannot be answered by science as the subject in question is unfalsifiable which makes it an exercise in navel gazing and little more.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SelfSim
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Metaphysics is a branch of Philosophy and I did answer your question from a science perspective.
There is nothing wrong with the questions posed in metaphysics except they cannot be answered by science as the subject in question in unfalsifiable which makes it an exercise in navel gazing and little more.
Science deals with hard objective provable (and hopefully proven) facts, and I have a lot of respect for that, and is probably why I like it so much. But as for what might not be able to be that way, some of us (most of us probably, if we sat around and thought about it for long enough, etc) Do still try to calculate percentages of what we might think maybe might be more likely to be true than false, and then the other way around for what might be false, and try to do some (if not most) of our thinking based on that, etc. Which also affects what we might believe, or else don't believe, etc. Knowing they cannot be absolutely proven yet, and sometimes based on different evidences that don't apply to all (or that maybe don't apply, or aren't the same for all, etc) but like, with myself for example, I reject any of my own beliefs that fall to less than 50% in my own mind in favor of what is much more likely (to me), and this is how I do a lot of my thinking when it comes to beliefs, or for what can't be proven as solidly as some of the facts in science can, etc. But the problem is, this is different for everybody, etc. Some things I think are true, or are more likely true, because they are the more likely possibility to me, even though I can't 100% prove them to someone else, etc. It can draw on evidence such as subjective experiences, or feelings that you have or get, along with what you might think could be the facts about the subject, all come into play when an individual is deciding what might or might not be more than likely true or false for them or not, etc. I do my best to try and be clear now though with other people at least as to whether this is something I think is more than likely true about a subject, and when it is not, but is actual factual objective proven already, by science or whatever, objective fact, etc. I try anyway, or it is something that I have been working on recently, but might not always get 100% right yet. Trying to get used to saying like "If this, then that" or "If that, then this" and so on and so forth, etc, when it comes to such subjects that are not totally testable or provable like with the subject of Christianity and religion, and things like that.

For example like my saying that if there is a God of the whole universe, then he cannot be like God as he is described or depicted to us in the Old Testament, and if God in the Old Testament really is or ever was real or truly exists, and Jesus was not literally either one of these God's (God in the Old Testament, or God of the whole universe, etc) then he has (or they both have to be) (both Jesus and YHWH) less than the God of the whole universe, and has to be God the Holy Spirit, etc. And I say these things because I have calculated them to be the most likely possibilities (or possibly only possibilities) of these conditional "if's" in my own mind, etc. Also that God of the whole universe cannot be fully omniscient unless the whole entire universe, and everything in it, is entirely deterministic, etc. Because that's another one I have, etc. And I have others, but am just going to provide these for right now as examples, etc. One can also posit all the other "if's" after all also, etc. Like the one's that center around God in the Old Testament being made up or being fashioned/thought up/made up by men, as just one example, or other things like that, etc. But naturally, I don't consider those last kind of if statements or lines of logic/reasoning to be the most, or more likely of the possibilities, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Science deals with hard objective provable (and hopefully proven) facts, and I have a lot of respect for that, and is probably why I like it so much. But as for what might not be able to be that way, some of us (most of us probably, if we sat around and thought about it for long enough, etc) Do still try to calculate percentages of what we might think maybe might be more likely to be true than false, and then the other way around for what might be false, and try to do some (if not most) of our thinking based on that, etc. Which also affects what we might believe, or else don't believe, etc. Knowing they cannot be absolutely proven yet, and sometimes based on different evidences that don't apply to all (or that maybe don't apply, or aren't the same for all, etc) but like, with myself for example, I reject any of my own beliefs that fall to less than 50% in my own mind in favor of what is much more likely (to me), and this is how I do a lot of my thinking when it comes to beliefs, or for what can't be proven as solidly as some of the facts in science can, etc. But the problem is, this is different for everybody, etc. Some things I think are true, or are more likely true, because they are the more likely possibility to me, even though I can't 100% prove them to someone else, etc. It can draw on evidence such as subjective experiences, or feelings that you have or get, along with what you might think could be the facts about the subject, all come into play when an individual is deciding what might or might not be more than likely true or false for them or not, etc. I do my best to try and be clear now though with other people at least as to whether this is something I think is more than likely true about a subject, and when it is not, but is actual factual objective proven already, by science or whatever, objective fact, etc. I try anyway, or it is something that I have been working on recently, but might not always get 100% right yet. Trying to get used to saying like "If this, then that" or "If that, then this" and so on and so forth, etc, when it comes to such subjects that are not totally testable or provable like with the subject of Christianity and religion, and things like that.

For example like my saying that if there is a God of the whole universe, then he cannot be like God as he is described or depicted to us in the Old Testament, and if God in the Old Testament really is or ever was real or truly exists, and Jesus was not literally either one of these God's (God in the Old Testament, or God of the whole universe, etc) then he has (or they both have to be) (both Jesus and YHWH) less than the God of the whole universe, and has to be God the Holy Spirit, etc. And I say these things because I have calculated them to be the most likely possibilities (or possibly only possibilities) of these conditional "if's" in my own mind, etc. Also that God of the whole universe cannot be fully omniscient unless the whole entire universe, and everything in it, is entirely deterministic, etc. Because that's another one I have, etc. And I have others, but am just going to provide these for right now as examples, etc. One can also posit all the other "if's" after all also, etc. Like the one's that center around God in the Old Testament being made up or being fashioned/thought up/made up by men, as just one example, or other things like that, etc. But naturally, I don't consider those last kind of if statements or lines of logic/reasoning to be the most, or more likely of the possibilities, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.
Jesus real claim as to God hood, or being part of the God head, was that he was equal to God in the Old Testament, while at the same time also being 100% honest and saying but that he was not equal to this God of the whole entire universe, but that he could more accurately and easily show that One to us through himself than God could in the Old Testament, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Even the most stringent well tested theories are still held as contextual and provisional .. subject to change with new data.

People claims things as being facts .. not science.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, as everything can be provisional or considered contextual from a certain point of view, etc. Like if the universe (or you or I) truly exists or not, or if our math is right, or works the way we think it does or should, or is supposed to maybe, or something like that, etc. But I was maybe wondering if you could provide us with some practical examples of that from your own understanding or perspective or point of view?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,233
✟218,050.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, as everything can be provisional or considered contextual from a certain point of view, etc. But I was maybe wondering if you could provide us with some practical examples of that maybe?
Newton's Laws, an atom, an electron, GR, the Sun, a planet ... the list is almost endless.
Also as demonstrated by the event known as 'the UV catastrophe' ..
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Newton's Laws, an atom, an electron, GR, the Sun, a planet ... the list is almost endless.
Also as demonstrated by the event known as 'the UV catastrophe' ..
I agree with you I think, but science still has it's uses, and still can most of the time do a pretty good job at explaining a great deal of many things, or at least get you thinking about them, etc. But there is also probably an inherent danger to new knowledge (and the same problem exists in religious circles) when a theory or idea becomes so much widely accepted to the point of being considered so very much "in errant", that none are ever dared allowed to question it.
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,233
✟218,050.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
But there is also probably an inherent danger to new knowledge (and the same problem exists in religious circles) when a theory or idea becomes so much widely accepted to the point of being considered so very much "in errant", that none are ever dared allowed to question it.
Not in science.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Not in science.
The first height of hubris is in thinking or believing in can't ever happen in your circle, etc, especially when it has happened in your circle in the past, etc.

I'm of the opinion that all circles have missed out on a great deal of knowledge for failing to recognize someone else's unique genius in that area for various reasons in the past, and that that still most definitely still happens a lot in every single circle today, etc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,233
✟218,050.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
The first height of hubris is in thinking or believing in can't ever happen in your circle, etc, especially when it has happened in your circle in the past, etc.
.. your opinion ... your belief as a criterion .. for extrapolating both of those into the past ... but whatever .. {yawn}.
 
Upvote 0