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How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by InterestedAtheist, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    I will answer to God. And I have offered my explanation which is my answer. And I consider it logical to do what I have offered > if ones in hell are going to stay there, it is logical to do all we can now to reach sinners and help them to change in their character so they can share with us and benefit from Heaven.

    Satan's character so ruined him that he considered Heaven to be horrible . . . because Jesus so greatly good and kind and glorious is on the throne and not Satan; therefore, I find it to be logical, how ones of Satan's character can not benefit from being in Heaven. This is the logic which I have offered, rather than be decoyed where your logic would take me, with how you have dictated we are supposed to understand things.

    I simply don't agree with you. And I am offering what is better, and worthy of our attention. I find your logic to be misleading, and I have been offering why.
  2. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    United States
    But you can access CA??? :scratch: Listen, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

    Absolutely, because we all deserve an eternity in literal Hell
    . Guess emotional manipulation doesn't work on me. You have one chance to feel bad for them, and that's when they're alive. It's like they're walking across a busy street and they have no idea a huge truck is racing towards them. Yeah, that's when I feel the most urgency for them--to do anything I can to help them. To tell them of how to avoid the coming disaster that's upon them. <-- That's love.

    Because there are these two things in theology called "total depravity" and "utter depravity."

    Everyone born of Adam is born in total depravity and deserves Hell. “There is none righteous, no, not one;" - Romans 3:10 In fact, the list of verses supporting this doctrine is downright huge.

    Therefore, no one merits Heaven (that's why I'm a Protestant). The doctrine of justification by grace (un-merited favor) through faith (dependent and objective trust) alone (and not works) is the only way one can be saved, and God does all of it. Even the Holy Spirit motivates you to strive for purity and to be like Jesus.

    "Utter depravity" is one who really-really tries to sin to the greatest extent that he possibly can. These people wake up in the morning with the singular goal to deliberately provoke God's wrath 24/7.

    Sproul's point is that, while Hitler and I are both totally depraved (and deserve Hell equally), Hitler was far more ambitious than I was, and really pushed the ball further on utter depravity than I did. But does that make me more righteous than Hitler? Not really, because when compared to Christ, I am closer to every-single-mass murderer who ever lived than I am to Christ.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  3. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    United States
    Sinners only have free will to sin. They have no free will to be righteous. That's Reformed theology.

    You could have simply said, "No Paulo, I don't believe there was a grand conspiracy to stitch together a ton of unverifiable accounts into a coherent 'Jesus narrative' to fool the masses."
  4. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    United States
    Ignoring the law of identity doesn't make the solution magically go away. It just makes you a misologist.

    What if some Christians (like myself) already faced the fact that loved ones are in Hell?


    Implying we don't deserve eternal justice?

    Christian doctrine teaches that God's love is manifest in two basic directions:

    1. God loves everyone in the sense of (a.) Doctrine of Providence and (b.) the Doctrine of Common Grace.

    "Grace" is always defined as "un-merited favor." That means every second God allows an unrepentant sinner to live, He is showing more Grace and Mercy.

    Which won't last forever, of course. Because God eventually has to demonstrate His Justice.

    ^ So don't take it for granted. That's a warning.

    2. God loves His Redeemed; those whom He bought back from sin and spiritual corruption by Grace (un-merited favor) alone. And He will continue to love them eternally.

    Therefore, yes indeed, "God loves you."

    The elect are changed into His glory. We will be "like" Him and be conformed to His sense of Holiness and justice. That's Heaven. Not your concept of Heaven. Don't even pretend we share the same abstract concept here.
  5. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    You must assume that people in hell are utterly evil, because if you don't, then the morality of Christians in heaven is called into question. The problem is, you're saying were never loving anyway, not even while they were alive. And this is obviously ridiculous. No Christians believe that non-Christians and other people in danger of hellfire are irredeemably evil while on this Earth; they realise that all humans are flawed, part good, part bad, but capable of loving. In fact, you've just given yourself a huge problem to deal with, because if you say that nobody who is in hell ever loved anyone, then you're saying that anyone who does love people will never go to hell. Which is good news for me.

    In short, your apologetic doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and I'm afraid heaven is still a pretty horrible place, whether its populated by unfeeling, heartless monsters, or by good people torn by loss and guilt as they are faced with the impossibility of helping their tortured loved ones.
    Either way, not very heavenly.
  6. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    What's CA?
    Didn't you know you can't access youtube in China? Check it out, you'll see it's true.
    Ah, bolding and underlining. That means you're shouting. Don't get frustrated, nobody can win arguments all the time.
    It's not me using emotional manipulation on you. It's your love for the people who go to hell. I quite understand that contemplating this may cause frustration.
    Why are you telling me this? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic at hand.
    Free will means that you are able to make choices. Nothing more, nothing less. It really is as simple as that.
    Still no idea what you're talking about, but enjoying it.
    You're still stuck on the horns of the dilemma, and I'm afraid you're doing a poor job of trying to talk yourself off it.
    This is only to be expected, of course. Better apologists than you have tried before.
    The problem is, you don't get to get over it. Because if you do go to heaven and find there is a loved one in hell, they are going to be there forever.
    At which point, you can either say you don't care, in which case you cannot call yourself a loving person, or that you do care. And if you do care, then (confronted by the thought of a loved one in terrible agony forever), you are going to be very unhappy, and heaven won't be so heavenly.
    Why feel bad about them being in hell? Because you love them. Even if you believe that they are now an iredeemably sinful monster (a ridiculous supposition) that wouldn't stop a truly loving person for feeling bad for them.
    What you believe is your own affair. But if you tell us your beliefs, we are at liberty to point out the logical contradictions in them. Which is what this us all about.
    Of course we share the same concept of heaven. You believe in it, and I don't, but it's not like I'm making up a story about heaven. What would be the point of that?
    All I'm doing is listening to what Christians say about heaven, and then pointing out the consequences of their beliefs. If you don't like that, that's your problem, not mine.
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Jesus does say,

    "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46.

    I have already offered explanation of this, as context to go with what I mean when I say ones in hell never loved anyone.

    I mean they never have been all-loving in the way which Jesus expects.

    There is real loving, there is selfish loving. Selfish loving comes from the character which qualifies a person to be in hell. This is what I mean. And I have given this already for context. And, of course, we labor with hope of how God is able to cure our character so we become like Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Him.

    But . . . again . . . like I mean > there are people who can't stand Jesus, because they want their selfish ways, including how they tend to love the ones they can use, and they pick and choose who is worth loving and good enough for them to love. And yes we in Jesus still can need correction so we do not have love idols.

    And a person's selfish nature makes him or her able to suffer torment in the presence of God. So, I see why God would give them a special place, in hell, away from the brilliance and goodness which they find to be tormenting. And if Jesus has us shining brighter than the sun, in the resurrection, I see how children of hell would not like being around us. So, indeed, then, it could be nicer for them if we are not shining at them but leaving them alone.

    But now is the time when we can reach people, like I have offered. But we need to get our own character cured, after having been into such selfish favoritistic loving, ourselves. We are not wise to only be trying to "save" people; we ourselves need to be prepared in our character so we do well with Jesus . . . how God alone is able to correct us.

    Your twenty or thirty words of isolated logic is not going to help us with this. But it does help to remind me to have compassion for wrong people, and care about them and reach to them. So I can benefit from this discussion :)
  8. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    But your representation of "heaven" does not include Jesus. Jesus is so kind and compassionate, that He left Heaven itself in order to reach us and save us. And Jesus is all the good that there is of Heaven. Jesus is not horrible; so the Heaven that I am talking about can not possibly be horrible. You have not dealt with who and how Jesus is, in your representation of "heaven".

    What you are talking about is how hell is, with monsters who have been so cruel that they make it seem like they are too good for Jesus and they don't need Jesus. And then their example helps others to decide they don't need Jesus so they end up in hell. That is what is horrible. Your definition of horrible does not deal with this. People might go around acting so charming, even affectionate, but their character is weak so they can suffer torment of worry and fear and boredom and loneliness and unforgiveness and ongoing misery because of bad circumstances. In Jesus Christ's character we can be encouraged and creative so we do what is good about bad things . . . like how Christ on the cross made good use of that horrible time. This is how Heaven's love with its character makes us able to relate and love. I do not think this is horrible.

    But yes what your imagination and logic have produced is a horrible place. I agree with not going there.

    Heaven's character is God's, with almighty immunity against cruel and anti-love stuff of abusive anger and worry and other deep suffering. And this character makes us strong so we can do well "without complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:13-16) in our relating with ones close to us so we don't hurt and abuse each other with arguing and controlling and possessing each other. We have growing almighty safety in our character, if not in our circumstances >

    "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

    So, even now Heaven I am talking about is being good for people.
  9. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

    No sir. A free will makes uncoerced choices made in full knowledge of the various opinions about the outcomes of choosing any particular option and with no proof of which outcome is the truth. This creates a very personal choice based upon what that person hopes for the most.

    From the Christian pov, humans are coerced by many things: their dna, their family and cultural upbringing, their addiction to sin and their being under the sway of GOD's predeterminism of this life though this pov causes enough cognitive dissonance many turn to doublethink to resolve their feelings, ie, believing that yes we are coerced by all these things but yes we have a free will.

    Because our free will is an absolute necessity it is no great leap to think that we had our time of free will before the foundation of the world when we chose our FATES and some chose to be sinful in GOD's sight at that time so the earth was created as a prison for the reprobate and as a rehab centre for the sinful elect within predetermined LIVES without a free will for any sinner unless reborn.

    Commitment to the doctrine of our being created here on earth within the concepts of creationism of the soul or traducianism is the cause of much of the theological mess.
  10. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    United States
    Apologies. Typo. What I mean is, "If YouTube is blocked in China, then how can you access ChristianForums?" :scratch: CF would be three times as forbidden as YouTube.

    No, Caps Lock typically means you're shouting. I do it to slow down skimming and/or cherry-picking.

    ^ Clear admission of deliberate emotional manipulation on IA's part. One can still love people who are justly convicted for crimes, sentenced to the death penalty, and such.

    This is like attending a lethal injection, taking a seat next to a close relative of the convict, and then whispering, "If you didn't object to the conviction, then you obviously didn't love him." That's a stone cold evil move there. But then again, I wouldn't expect anything less.

    Because you asked me to explain. The thread speaks for itself.

    "Free will" is one of those deceptively facile buzzwords that everyone takes for granted until they're forced to actually think about it. It's been debated for hundreds of years. For example: I am free to choose whether I want to have ham or jam for breakfast, but it doesn't mean I'm free to control every possible circumstance that could prevent me from having ham or jam for breakfast (the ham went bad, the ham ninjas broke in and ate it first, the fridge broke down in the middle of the night, I fall down the stairs on the way to the fridge, etc. etc.), in which case, my perception of "free will" isn't really as free as I may assume it is.

    Well then maybe you'll learn something. There are a lot of atheists out there who don't believe Jesus said what He said in the gospel account, and that it is a series of redactions by other authors. IOW, a religious conspiracy to create-a-Christ.

    The law of identity is not a dilemma. It's an absolute law of logic. No worries, really.

    In which case, the record shows that you pointed out zero contradictions in the Doctrine of Common Grace, as well as the Doctrine of Special Grace.

    No, I'm pretty sure we don't. Why don't you try to describe your concept of Heaven as you believe you heard it from professing Christians?
  11. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    And I explained to you that your explanation doesn't make sense.
    So I see you've now changed your definition of love, to fix the problem I pointed out. The problem is, this doesn't help you either.
    In order to save your argument, you still have to prove that the people who go to hell never loved anyone at all. You're trying to say that this is true because only Christians are capable of "real, true" love. But this is obviously false. Christians themselves will tell you that they aren't perfect, that their virtue is still mixed with sin. And that means that the non-Christians' sin is still mixed with virtue.
    You're still facing the fundament problem, and haven't yet resolved it. To say that people who go to hell never, ever loved anybody is obviously false. Even "selfish" love carries an element of love in it. They are not irredeemably evil while on earth, and so are still deserving of your love.
    And you know what this means: you are not, sadly, able to completely discount them. You loved them while they were on earth, and your love meant something. So you can't just ignore it while in heaven. Indeed, it's a horrible thing for you to even try, and the harder you try to, the worse a person you will be.
    "Isolated logic," eh? Logic is all we need here. What I've said makes sense, and you know it. You've lost. You can see now that heaven is not - cannot - be heavenly, if hell also exists. Deal with it.
    If you say so. But you've still lost the debate. Why not have the grace to admit it?
  12. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    That's a problem for you, because it's simply the heaven you Christians me about. You just didn't realise it.
  13. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

    Sure thing. Typos happen.
    Anyway, strangely, it's not.
    Be told that it looks like shouting and makes you look like you're getting frustrated.

    Of course one can. But if you actually love them, you feel bad for them, even if you agree with their punishment.
    First, this looks like it's getting difficult for you. Take a breath and relax. You're taking this too seriously.
    Second: no, it's not like that. It's like seeing people at an execution, and they're laughing and smiling. You learn that they are close friends of the convicted, but they seem to not care in the slightest. The logical conclusion is that they don't actually love him.
    Your little explanation of depravity doesn't seem to help either you or me. You'll have to clarify.
    Nobody ever said that free will meant you controlled everything. Why would you think they think that? You're still free to choose ham or jam.
    Let's stick to the topic, shall we?
    The law of identity doesn't help you here in the slightest.
    Flaws? What are you talking about? There are no flaws in them. The only problem is, they don't help you in the slightest, which means you're still stuck on the dilemma.
    Sure. From Christians, I understand that people who go to heaven will be perfectly happy. The existence of hell that loved ones go to presents an insuperable obstacle to this, meaning that the people in hell either do not care about their loved ones (in which case, they're not loving) or aren't perfectly happy (in which case heaven isn't heavenly).
    It's a simple problem that Christians have now spent thirteen pages trying to work around, with no success. And the doctrines of grace aren't going to make any difference at all, I'm afraid.
  14. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    United States
    Then admins should remove them.

    Then why are you here?

    I appear to be taking it too seriously because I'm not allowed to lol. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

    - Pretty sure we'd take God's justice just as seriously as Luke 16:23-31. Pretty sure Abraham in the account isn't laughing and smiling.

    - So you define love as. . .a feeling? :neutral:

    - More Luke 16: “Then [the rich man in Hades] said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’

    Your little explanation of depravity doesn't seem to help either you or me. You'll have to clarify.

    I clearly stated, "Sproul's point is that, while Hitler and I are both totally depraved (and deserve Hell equally), Hitler was far more ambitious than I was, and really pushed the ball further on utter depravity than I did. But does that make me more righteous than Hitler? Not really, because when compared to Christ, I am closer to every-single-mass murderer who ever lived than I am to Christ."

    Or anything, really. . .

    You first.

    Sure it does.

    God's nature = God's nature




    2. the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.

    synonyms: essence

    My quote in the thread clearly states the word "contradictions." Word search in thread shows you were the only one to use the word "flaws" before this post. Are you really going to make me get this tedious with you?

    - So what I'm hearing is that you define heaven as a separate place, correct?

    - Why are they happy?

    What do you think "Hell" is for, as you hear it from Christians?

    - You haven't (yet) explained why one necessarily should feel bad for loved ones in Hell. Is it because you see it as unreasonable torture, or something?
  15. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    But without Jesus you can't love in the way which is possible with God . . . with the character of Jesus.

    Like I offer, among other things >

    "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

    And loving people includes helping people see they need how Jesus died on the cross for us, so we can be reconciled with God and become ready with the right character so we can spend eternity with Him. Human loving does not do this.

    Also, the character of God's love is almighty against the kind of fear which "has torment" >

    "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

    So, loving people includes helping them to know and discover how God is able to give them His own almighty immunity of love against cruel and disabling fear and worry. And the character of this love makes us ready to share eternity with Jesus.