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How could we survive the horrors of heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by InterestedAtheist, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have vision of such people, right now, and I have pity on them. This is why I seek to be an example who can help people to avoid going there.

    So, yes if I saw someone from Heaven, I would say then also I would have pity on them.
     
  2. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Thinking of questions that you refuse to hear as answered...I've read a plausible answer right here in this thread for at least one of these...
     
  3. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    ImCo,
    everyone created in HIS image was created before the physical universe with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and saviour from any sin or to put their faith in HIS being a liar and a false god, willing to go to hell to avoid a life with HIM. The choices we made separated everyone into two main classes of people:
    1. the elect, those who put their faith in HIM as our GOD whom HE chose (elected) to be HIS Bride in the heavenly state of marriage to HIM and

    2. those who rejected HIS claims to be our GOD and saviour as the lies of false pretender to Deity. But then the elect separated themselves into two categories also, those who stayed holy to HIS commands, the holy angels, and those who rebelled against HIS plans to judge the demons and banish the to the outer darkness, thus becoming sinful themselves and needing to be redeemed and returned to HIM.

    Your question is answered by four parts of my doctrine: the reason for our creation, the meaning of a true free will choice, the eternal nature of these decisions, and the reason we are on earth.

    In short:
    the reason for our creation was to have a loving marriage relationship with us. I base this conclusion on the Wedding of the Church to the Lamb being the culmination of the story of HIS relationship with HIS creation after it has been cleansed for all evil.

    Free will
    This purpose necessitates our having a free will as love and marriage cannot be true if they are forced upon the potential bride. They must choose without any coercion to accept the proposal and come to love the Husband on their own. To be an informed choice and not just a guess as to the acceptance or the rejection of the proposal being the best for themselves, they must know in full what the consequences of all the options are predicted to be. But these consequences cannot be proven or they would coerce the decision of the people...no one would choose to reject HIM if hell was proven to be the natural and legal consequence of this decision. Once proof is given, the choices are fixed.

    The nature of evil
    1. the necessity of our free will meant that the results of a free will decision must be sacrosanct in the eyes of GOD. HE WILL NOT CHANGE THEM for any reason.
    2. The only power that can help a person turn from the evil they have chosen is GOD's power of persuasion motivated by HIS loving grace. By totally rejecting HIM and HIS promise of salvation from all sin, the reprobate were passed over for election and left to their own devices which cannot save them from the natural and legal consequences of becoming sinful and evil in HIS sight.
    3. If GOD were to change their minds and force them to marry HIM no real marriage could result because no true love nor true marriage can be forced, they must be chosen.
    4. When we all saw the creation of the physical universe and HIS deity and power (and hell) were fully displayed, the reprobate could never by their free will change their minds because of the coercive nature of this revelation.
    5. The nature of evil is to grow in the mind and desires until it is fully realized and the person is completely given over to his addiction to evil (thus called a demon) and will never, can never, change his mind about what he believes to be right in the face of opposition...that is he can't be brought to repentance but only banished from heaven.

    Thus the result of their decision to reject YHWH knowing that if they were making an eternal mistake, they would put themselves apart from HIS loving grace and salvation forever, was realized.

    I will end this here and write a new post about why GOD works with some but not all for their salvation....
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  4. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Why are only some people helped by GOD to find faith and salvation?

    In the parable of the weeds in Matt 13, the weeds refer to the people of the evil one and the good seed refers to the people of the Kingdom, verses 36-39. The good seed are not called good because they are righteous since they are liable to be destroyed in the judgment if it is called before they are holy. Therefore good must refer to their status as elect, sown here to come into Christ’s salvation by GOD’s grace. The judgement of the reprobate weeds has been postponed v29-30, until the good seed are made holy and are heaven ready, trained in righteousness by powerful discipline: Heb 12:5-11.

    Thus we are here to work out our pre-conception decisions about GOD’s plan for us. We are not here to find a GOD but to return to the GOD we accepted but disobeyed or to be judged. Every elect who can be saved will indeed be saved but there is no possibility that a reprobate weed, given totally over to evil, can ever escape his self chosen fate. The earth is the time of the redemption of the sinful elect, reborn into Christ’s death to be freed from the hold of sin upon them and sanctified unto holiness, finally willing to accept all YHWH’s judgements as righteous.

    And for those who like to quote verses about the salvation of the world, there are two worlds here on earth in mankind: the world of the Kingdom which will last and the world of the evil one which will be destroyed.
     
  5. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    How exciting! A link to the post, please?
     
  6. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Well, that's a good thing to hear.
    But pity? Sorrow? Unhappiness? So there will be these things in heaven? That doesn't sound very heavenly...
     
  7. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Does this follow? Let's have a look at it.
    That is contradicted by the many, many times in the Bible and stories from two thousand years of Christian literature in which God does interfere to change people's decisions.
    Did God not intervene when he changed Saul of Tarsus from a persecutor of Christians to one of the founders of the Christian Church? Did God not interfere with Jonah's free will when Jonah tried to escape God's instructions? Was God not interfering with the choices of forty-two children when he sent two bears who tare them to pieces? When He forced Pharoah to set the Israelites free from Egypt? Have you never heard a Christian saying that they were lost in sin and God showed them the light, without them asking for Him to?
    The idea that God never interferes with people's choices is flatly contradicted by Christian stories of him doing so all the time.
    Why? Why is it simply not possible for a person to see the choice, heaven or hell, and simply decide they'd rather go to heaven?
    I'll tell you why: because nobody chooses to go to hell. Seriously. Absolutely nobody. You would have to be plumb crazy to make such a ridiculously self-destructive choice. I know you have to tell yourself that people do this, because it means it's their fault rather than God's. But it's contradicted by everything we know of human nature. It just doesn't happen.
    I for one can tell you that I have never made such a choice, and can never imagine doing so. I mean, think about it: "Yes, please, I'll choose the roasting on a spit for eternity; it looks much more fun than hanging about on a cloud playing a harp."
    Seriously: who do you imagine would ever make a choice like that?
    If we're going to turn this into a marriage analogy, I'm afraid it does not make Christianity look good.
    Forget about the extremely dubious ethics of one person wanting to marry every person in existence. Let's go with it. How does that look for, say, me?
    It's like a marriage in which you never meet the spouse, but you're assured they exist. They exist, and they love you.
    No, you can't meet them, but if you do the right things, you'll be able to feel their presence and love for you. And even talk to them! Possibly.
    No, not on a telephone.
    No, they won't actually say anything you don't already know.
    In fact, they might not even speak in words.
    But they love you! Like, they really, really love you. And they want you to come and live in their wonderful home.
    No, you can't see a photo of it.
    No, you can't talk to anyone who's been there.
    And if you don't marry them, by the way, you're choosing to go to a really horrible place. Which the person who wants to marry you made, by the way.
    That does not sound like a healthy relationship at all.
    Why couldn't God manifest in some less titanic form that could prove the truth of Christianity's claims? Like Jesus. Or the vision to Paul. Or, for that matter, just turning up in less-than-mind-blowing form and just producing some evidence of Christianity's claims.
    It makes sense that you think this, because you are supporting the banishing of all humans who do not agree with you to the maximally horrible destination. And so you have to believe that they are, or will become, maximally horrible, because if they aren't, then you are guilty of sending innocents to torture, or at least of endorsing this.
    But if you do believe this, you have to believe that the majority of the normal people you see around you are appalling demons-in-waiting. And it's obvious that they aren't. They're normal people, with a bit of bad, a bit of good and a bit of in-between in them. And if God is restraining them from evil - well, restraining is an interference in their free will, isn't it? You said that God will never, ever do that. But apparently, He does, when He stops humans from being maximally evil on Earth. It all sounds very confusing, and that's probably because it's a mess of contradictory ad hoc rationalisations.
    None of them ever made such a decision. In the whole history of sin and sinners, nobody ever said to themselves, "I know I am evil, and it's such fun. That's why I'm so excited about going to hell, where I will be tortured in the most hideous ways for eternity."
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  8. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Not to mention one more thing:

    Even granting everything you've said, and granting that the people in hell are maximally evil and deserve to be there - aren't you, in heaven, supposed to become morally perfect? And looking down on these unhappy, tortured creatures, wouldn't a truly loving person feel sorry for them?

    But then that would mean that sorrow exists in heaven. And that can't be.

    So you must simply say that you are not sorry for them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  9. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    The fact that GOD interferes strongly in humans affairs against our choices is NOT proof that HE would ever go against a free will choice because sinners have no free will in that we are enslaved to sin. HE goes against our sinful wills all the time, not our pre-sin free will.

    Our addiction to evil desires does not end until we are reborn into His spirit and never ends for the non-elect. Our lives here, our choices, are predetermined for one thing, the sanctification of the sinful elect and the fate of all predestined to achieve HIS purpose of HIS marriage to HIS holy Church.
     
  10. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    After becoming sinful? Because they are addicted to evil to their core....
     
  11. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    You still have not got it eh...we knew each other as well as spirits can well before the earth was created. Your insistence upon thinking only in earthly terms will never let you understand my point of view.
     
  12. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    You are absolutely correct in this. But out of pride and feeling superior you could believe someone claiming to be GOD was a liar and a false god making up the story of hell to manipulate people to worhip him falsely rather than telling the truth of the natural and legal consequences for such a rebellion. Because you think there to be no consequences, you could beleive anything...
     
  13. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    My baseline answer is that if HE is GOD then HE chose the best way possible to bring HIS sinful elect to repentance and sanctification so the postponement of the judgement can ened.
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, if I am pitying you, meaning I am despising you . . . looking down on you . . . this would not be heavenly, in my opinion, since Jesus who is so greater than we are cared about us, pitied us enough to come here to reach us and suffer and die for us. So, His way of pitying is better than how a number of us have pitied people.
     
  15. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    That's nothing bur sophistry, I'm afraid. In order to maintain your argument that God would never interfere with our free will, you must resort to playing word games when confronted by the clear evidence that He does just that.
    (shrug) That doesn't actually mean anything, I'm afraid. You can't avoid the point, so you try to talk around it.
    Since people are obviously not addicted to evil, your argument fails.
    Nobody who knows anything about the human race would say that most people are "addicted to evil."
    Unless they had to to make some obscure theological point that requires the twisting of logic to make sense.
    "You will never be able to understand because you don't think right" is something people say when they've lost the debate.
    We're on a debating forum. You just conceded.
    No, it's really a lot simpler than that.
    If something seems ridiculous, and there's no evidence that it's true, it probably isn't.
    Simple, really.
    In other words, "You can't explain how God is in the right, except that He must be."
    You just conceded the debate.
     
  16. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    But that's not what pity means.
    Your argument sabotages itself.
    Pity is bad, so you won't pity the people in hell, because Jesus pitied us?

    All you're saying is that when you are in heaven, you will either feel bad about those in hell - in which case heaven isn't heavenly - or you won't care about them at all. In which case, heaven is monstrous.
     
  17. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    This has been a very interesting thread, and a fruitful one. My thanks to all those who replied.

    Confronted by the idea that they will be faced with the horrors of loved ones in hell, we've seen Christians responding in quite a range of ways, and all of them tying themselves in knots to avoid the obvious truth: if you saw your loved ones in hell, you would either feel bad, or forfeit the right to be called a loving person.
     
  18. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Ignorance of the fact that our lack of free will here on earth is a Christian doctrine of many theologians and whole sects of the Church does you no good. No free will for sinners is doctrine, your quibbles aside. And the necessity to reconcile that doctrine with the absolute necessity of all sin / evil and all righteousness / faith MUST be by a free will decison is explainable to those who are not blinkered by a previous commitment to a mindset...Christian or atheist.

    If you don't understand Christian theology and cannot follow ordinary Christian words in a theological context....why are you here?

    Again you act as if Christian doctrine is new to you, so curious.

    The letters of the NT are full of the doctrine of our enslavement to sin over, and over, Even Jesus purportedly supported this pov at John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. The use of the more modern and available word 'addiction' for its metaphor 'enslavement' is not out of bounds for the meaning of the words.


    Debating forum or not - I have no vested interest in winning or beating your or you changing your mind.

    I don't debate, I prefer a dialectic. You asked, I answered and it is your job to understand the basic concepts enough to follow the answer. If election, sanctification and the concept of the necessity of free will but it not being available to sinners is gobbledygook to you then I am at a loss... The pejorative gaslighting words sophistry, playing word games and claiming my paragraph doesn't actually mean anything are NOT acceptable debating techniques so we must guess as to why you use them...
     
  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Let me see > I checked a few sources. Compassion is one meaning . . . which I meant.

    And I offered > I would trust God to have me doing what He knows is good.

    And I might have indicated that God will be with people in hell, keeping them in existence and management. Possibly Hebrews 12:29 has something to do with this >

    "For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

    But because of their character, they suffer in God's presence . . . while ones in the nature of God's love benefit.

    By character God is good, and love. But the spirit of evil's character is bad and nasty and negative and so anti-good that it suffers in the presence of God's goodness . . . like how trash burns and rubber burns with a stench in the presence of heat or fire. But one who relates right with fire does not burn. And there are things which benefit from how fire effects them.

    Gold can become purified.

    In the gospels we can read how wrong people became effected, right in the presence of Heaven's own Jesus. They hated Him, and became upset . . . tormented. That was not Jesus' fault, but the fault of their own character.

    And Satan was in Heaven, itself, but his character made him so he hated how Heaven was. So, he was put out. And his children are like him; they are going to hate seeing Jesus on the day of judgment. Possibly, they will suffer less away from Jesus and Heaven, because of the nature of their character.

    But by character God is good and love, with peace and joy and kindness. He can not change from this. So, if ones are anti-God, and suffering about Heaven . . . they have hell away from the intensity of goodness of love in Heaven, so they do not suffer so much like they would in the presence of love and joy and peace. But God is changing our character to better than human so we benefit . . . including so we can care about ones in hell; but we submit to God guiding our attention.

    By the way > you are talking about how hell is . . . mixing up Heaven with hell. Heaven is not like hell. Heaven has love and peace and joy, by its spiritual and unchangeable character. A person in hell has the character to suffer torment and misery even if a person were in Heaven. So, hell is a specialized place for evil like this.
     
  20. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    Nothing but ad hoc rationalisations, I'm afraid. And also doing nothing to solve your problem: how can you consider yourself a loving person if you don't feel bad about people in hell, and how can heaven be perfect if you feel bad there?
     
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