Eastern Orthodox view on Salvation?

[Soderquj]

I have always looked at asking the saints for prayers as I would a family member or a friend. Same with Mary, alone they can do nothing but in Christ who knows! I will personnelly take the chance for help!

 

[Gnarwhal]

I have always looked at asking the saints for prayers as I would a family member or a friend. Same with Mary, alone they can do nothing but in Christ who knows! I will personnelly take the chance for help!

Well said.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothea, thanks for posting these links! I'm convinced Orthodoxy is Christianity in all its fullness, yet struggling with the whole concept of venerating and asking intercession of Mary and the Saints vs Protestant prohibitions/warnings against the practice. I found the podcasts, especially Fr. Peter Gillquist's one, very helpful. Thanks again!

Deborah

Edit: links removed from original post as my post count is too low to reply to posts with active hyperlinks

You're welcome! I'm so glad they were helpful! God bless and welcome to TAW!

 

[Zeek]

Zazal, you are welcome to continue asking respectful questions here, as I feel you've been doing. I'm ok with that. I don't know about the others here.

Thanks...I will do so if I feel the need...much appreciated everyone

 

[Knee V]

Zazal, you are welcome to continue asking respectful questions here, as I feel you've been doing. I'm ok with that. I don't know about the others here.

I tend to have a very liberal view of what is considered "fellowship" and "discussion" by non-members. Pretty much anything short of proselytizing by a seemingly well-intentioned person is fine with me. But I know that I certainly do not constitute any kind of majority.


On another note, though, I find that (part of) the movie "What Dreams May Come" does a phenomenal job of summing up what salvation and the Incarnation is all about. The main character never really "joins" his wife, and she spirals deeper and deeper into mental illness and eventually dies and is in Hell. Upon his death, the main character chooses to go to Hell and find her, and when he does, he holds onto her and stays there with her, which ultimately leads to her "salvation" (I use that term very loosely in the context of that movie, which overall is hardly orthodox).

 

[Dorothea]

I tend to have a very liberal view of what is considered "fellowship" and "discussion" by non-members. Pretty much anything short of proselytizing by a seemingly well-intentioned person is fine with me. But I know that I certainly do not constitute any kind of majority.


On another note, though, I find that (part of) the movie "What Dreams May Come" does a phenomenal job of summing up what salvation and the Incarnation is all about. The main character never really "joins" his wife, and she spirals deeper and deeper into mental illness and eventually dies and is in Hell. Upon his death, the main character chooses to go to Hell and find her, and when he does, he holds onto her and stays there with her, which ultimately leads to her "salvation" (I use that term very loosely in the context of that movie, which overall is hardly orthodox).

I remember seeing that movie many years ago and finding it very odd. It was pretty sad for sure. I had never seen it in that light before. That's actually pretty neat.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have always looked at asking the saints for prayers as I would a family member or a friend. Same with Mary, alone they can do nothing but in Christ who knows! I will personnelly take the chance for help!

that's a great way of putting it. if Christ loves us, and they love us because they are truly in Christ, why would they not want to help and why would Christ not use them to help us?

 

[Zeek]

Hey brethren....

In Orthodoxy...when is it recorded that prayers were first made to Mary, Angels and Saints...and how was it established as doctrine, on whose authority and can we trust this ruling?

 

[Thekla]

Hi, Zazal

I don't know of a 'ruling' per se, and some are certainly more well informed than me so hope you'll get a better response ...

But an early copy of the "Sub Tuum Praesidium" hymn/prayer, which is still used in the EO, OO, and RC, was found in Egypt in the 1950s?, and is dated (the discovered text) to the 3rd century.
Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hey brethren....

In Orthodoxy...when is it recorded that prayers were first made to Mary, Angels and Saints...and how was it established as doctrine, on whose authority and can we trust this ruling?

I know that it's in the catacomb churches from the early centuries, but it's also in St Luke's Gospel. in Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man petitions (prays to) Abraham, and Abraham answers (no).

 

[Zeek]

I know that it's in the catacomb churches from the early centuries, but it's also in St Luke's Gospel. in Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man petitions (prays to) Abraham, and Abraham answers (no).

I think that is 'reaching' a bit my friend...both Lazarus and Dives were no longer on the earth...also the lesson Jesus was giving was not about praying to departed Believers, but hard facts surrounding unbelieving hearts.

 

[Zeek]

Hi, Zazal

I don't know of a 'ruling' per se, and some are certainly more well informed than me so hope you'll get a better response ...

But an early copy of the "Sub Tuum Praesidium" hymn/prayer, which is still used in the EO, OO, and RC, was found in Egypt in the 1950s?, and is dated (the discovered text) to the 3rd century.
Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hiya...

Thanks I checked that out...it seems that most agree it dated from around 250AD...I would really like to follow how it developed from there and who established it as an 'acceptable practice' for Christians and by what 'authority' they made the ruling.

Some of the thoughts I am pursuing, no longer challenge Othodoxy and Catholicism over their primacy as the oldest established elements of the ekklesia...but rather the source of their authority, and whether some of their practices (ones that I struggle to see biblically) have not tainted what started off as ancient congregations in the tradition of the biblical Apostles and polluted some of the purity by adopting teachings and traditions that run contrary to sound doctrine.

It is like trying to fit a very large, difficult jig-saw together and being unsure if all the pieces are actually on the table....then trying to force some pieces into places where they just won't fit.

"I have always hated doing jig-saws...but this is a different type.''

 

[Soderquj]

Hey brethren....

In Orthodoxy...when is it recorded that prayers were first made to Mary, Angels and Saints...and how was it established as doctrine, on whose authority and can we trust this ruling?

Zazal

We do not pray to Mary or Saints we ask for their intercessory prayers.
Per Orthodoxwiki.
In and through Christ, Orthodox Christians become competent to intercede before God. In the name of Jesus, Christians are authorized to pray for each other and for all creation. All prayer is to God the Father, through his Son, in his Holy Spirit, even if not mentioned in the words of the prayer.


examples: Tobit 12:12, 1 Tim 2

also another site thread.
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showt...-and-deceased-saints&highlight=praying+saints

 

[Zeek]

Zazal

We do not pray to Mary or Saints we ask for their intercessory prayers.
Per Orthodoxwiki.
In and through Christ, Orthodox Christians become competent to intercede before God. In the name of Jesus, Christians are authorized to pray for each other and for all creation. All prayer is to God the Father, through his Son, in his Holy Spirit, even if not mentioned in the words of the prayer.


examples: Tobit 12:12, 1 Tim 2

also another site thread.
]Ante-Nicene references to the intercession of Mary and deceased saints?

Hi...thanks for the reminder.

I still find it very hard to differentiate between what is a prayer request to say Mary...and when that request seems to extend into a prayer to Mary...I mean if we look at what is being discussed:-

Greek TextEnglish TranslationὙπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν,καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε.Τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας,μὴ παρίδῃς ἐν περιστάσει,ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς,μόνη Ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.Beneath your compassion,We take refuge, O Mother of God:do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:but rescue us from dangers,only pure, only blessed one.
Beneath your compassion,We take refuge, O Mother of God:do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:but rescue us from dangers,only pure, only blessed one. I think you might be able to see why it looks as if Mary is being directly prayed to. Sometimes I feel that it is so obvious to me an outsider from the Orthodox traditions, and that I must be getting the gist of it all wrong...but honestly I see this and many other prayers for exactly what they are unless we are talking a different language.

In a sense it is a prayer to them to pray for us...but that still makes it a prayer to them...and then when some prayers/requests to them imply they have special god-like capabilities, or others imbue them with the sort of praise that I have only ever heard offered to the L-rd...well again you can understand my disquiet.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think that is 'reaching' a bit my friend...both Lazarus and Dives were no longer on the earth...also the lesson Jesus was giving was not about praying to departed Believers, but hard facts surrounding unbelieving hearts.

I get that it was not the core teaching. however, if a sinner in torment can petition a saint, why can't the rest of us?

 

[Soderquj]

I can understand why this would seem that way until you understand the idea of intercession.
Beneath your compassion - Her compassion will lead her to pray for us.
We take refuge - our refuge is the belief that she will pray for us.
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble - Our request to god through her. I would hope no one is asking her to do something herself outside of God.

The rest is our hope that through her intersession we are rescued.

All can participate through grace, but only God saves.
My view and a very simple one at that.

 

[Atwood45]

Hiya...

Thanks I checked that out...it seems that most agree it dated from around 250AD...I would really like to follow how it developed from there and who established it as an 'acceptable practice' for Christians and by what 'authority' they made the ruling.

Some of the thoughts I am pursuing, no longer challenge Othodoxy and Catholicism over their primacy as the oldest established elements of the ekklesia...but rather the source of their authority, and whether some of their practices (ones that I struggle to see biblically) have not tainted what started off as ancient congregations in the tradition of the biblical Apostles and polluted some of the purity by adopting teachings and traditions that run contrary to sound doctrine.

It is like trying to fit a very large, difficult jig-saw together and being unsure if all the pieces are actually on the table....then trying to force some pieces into places where they just won't fit.

"I have always hated doing jig-saws...but this is a different type.''

This is what Protestants say. Can you please explain WHAT sound doctrine is? How you can PROVE that this is un-sound doctrine? how these traditions are man-made?

You can't, because again if you look into the earliest of Christians you will find the Marian doctrines being practiced, because christ said "The gates of hell shall no prevail against my church".

so honestly, If you going to dis-respect Orthodox tradition and say its un-sound with no prove to back it up except your own assumptions and interpretations of the scriptures, than I would really just suggest not posting on this forum, I told you earlier to look into this but if it seems you can't rap your head around this because you have a closed mind to the truth. So seriously before you post here again try and PROOF what you say, and maybe look into the early church father, because I am not lying to you, OO, EO, EC, RC, all these Apostolic churches practice intercession of saints and the virgin Mary, they all see Mary as the mother of god, all of there teachings are consistent with each other, you would think 1500 years apart the OO and EO would differ on this belief? but they don't, because its TRUE apostolic tradition, and anything the Apostles practiced and Christ taught is good enough for me.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

No offense, Atwood, but Zazal is asking sincere questions about things he is struggling to understand. He is not being disrespectful, and is welcome to keep asking.

Most of us in the forum have been where he is now.

Mary

 

[Zeek]

No offense, Atwood, but Zazal is asking sincere questions about things he is struggling to understand. He is not being disrespectful, and is welcome to keep asking.

Most of us in the forum have been where he is now.

Mary

Thanks Mary...that is exactly right...I have absolutely no intent of disrespect whatsoever, and it has been very refreshing to be amongst friends and fellow Believers that come from a different tradition, but with whom for the most part, I believe I can sincerely express my struggle to understand some unusual doctrines (unusual to me)....I have actually come a long way regarding these things in many respects.

 

[Zeek]

I can understand why this would seem that way until you understand the idea of intercession.
Beneath your compassion - Her compassion will lead her to pray for us.
We take refuge - our refuge is the belief that she will pray for us.
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble - Our request to god through her. I would hope no one is asking her to do something herself outside of God.

The rest is our hope that through her intersession we are rescued.

All can participate through grace, but only God saves.
My view and a very simple one at that.

Hey I like simple...I can relate to simple, I think some of us often have the capacity to over complicate things....thanks for explaining how you see things.