Eastern Orthodox view on Salvation?

[Atwood45]

Hello Eastern Orthodox forum, its me again ><. Well, again as I have stated in other friends I am a Eastern-rite Catholic, exploring the Orthodox faith. I find the spirituality of the East to be a lot more christ centred than the scholastic view of the west, were salvation has to be defined by like 5 points(Calvinism) and if you don't believe these points you are eternally dammed, No as a Eastern Catholic I believe that Salvation is a daily practice, its how we try and live the life of Christ, strive for perfection and abide the commandments and put our faith in our lord, I don't believe in a Necessary believe for Salvation other than that one must use the grace god gives us in the sacraments to live a life of devotion to Christ, and to live by his word, although the Catholic side of me believes in Mortal sin and venial sin, so that if one commits moral sin its a direct act against god and can, if without being repented, lead to damnation. It is a struggle though as I find the West to have adopted philosophical or rational ways to explain mysteries in Christ, instead of just accepting we can't explain god because he's god!, he's too complex to be explained.

So basically, what i am wondering in Roman catholic theology salvation starts at baptism and with faith and works we can be saved.

For protestants its Sola-fide to be saved. My whole time as a christian I have debated between these two(obv im in favor of the catholic viewpoint), I know that faith without works is dead, and james really helps explain this, but as a Orthodox christian do you explain Salvation as faith and works like the Catholics? Or do you like I like to explain it by just living your life in the grace of Christ and trying to strive for perfection through the sacraments on the church? I guess if someone could give me a good answer for this it will help me to decide if my beliefs are more orthodox or Catholic.

Thanks.

 

[Soderquj]

[FONT=&quot]By Divine Grace we understand the saving work of God, made available through the work of Christ and distributed by the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is a free gift, necessary for our salvation and requiring our cooperation. (Synergy) We respond to God's grace through our works of love, which manifest the fruits of God's grace working in each of us. We have been saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. We are being saved by our active participation in the Sacramental life of the Church as a work of love manifesting the fruits of God's Grace. We will be saved if we remain in him at His glorious Second Coming.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[ArmyMatt]

Salvation is an eternal process to become more and more like God. from God's side, He has done everything I can to save man. Christ is risen and death and the devil's power are destroyed. so on one hand, everyone is saved. everyone will get a glorified body at the end.

for those who have struggled in this life to become like God, whether they know it or not, their meeting of Christ will be paradise to them. for those who have wanted nothing to do with Christ and have hardened their hearts against Him, God's presence will expose their darkness and sin and they will be in torment. there will be many people who on the Last Day will realize the Christ had been their desire all their life, and they did not know it. and many who preached the Gospel to millions who want nothing to do with the real Jesus.

 

[ProScribe]

The Epistle of St. James may say faith and works while one St. Paul's epistles talks about grace - you have to have a good purview of the Christian bible.

 

[Ignatius21]

Given all the fights and controversies that have happened, and continue to happen, between Catholics and Protestants (and then among Protestants and Protestants and Protestants and Protestants and Protestants...), I think the phrase "faith and works" can be misleading when understood from either Western perspective. I don't believe it should be understood as "faith + works -> salvation" as though faith in itself were not saving. Nor should it be understood as "faith -> salvation + works" as though works were merely a footnote to salvation, something one does simply because one is saved.

It's hard to express in words, but perhaps more like "salvation is faith through works," or "we are saved by faith actualized in our lives through works." We aren't working toward some reward, or currying favor with God, or offsetting sins with merit. We are saved by grace through faith, where faith is more than just an intellectual assent, and more than just a sort of "trust" that will lead to obedience. Faith is assent, and trust, and action. It's a dynamic thing, a verb more than a noun.

If faith without works is dead and cannot save (James), and if we are saved by grace through faith (Paul), then any "faith" that has no works is something other than faith. Therefore I can only conclude that faith, properly understood, includes works of obedience within it. After all, if salvation is participation in the divine life (and it is, in Eastern through), such that we become joined to the divine through participation in the Incarnation of Christ, then we are becoming like Christ by becoming in Christ. And what did Christ do? The work of his Father. "Good works" done out of love for God are salvation, because our goal is nothing less than to spend eternity doing the work of God. Heck, that's what "liturgy" means!

Hope that's helpful.

--------------------------

ps. As an aside, I came out of a 5-pt calvinist background. Calvinism does not teach that one is saved by believing in Calvinism, nor that one is necessarily damned for not believing all five points of a system. There are some Calvinists who will reduce it to that, but they do not believe anyone is saved through belief in a list of doctrinal points. As I read somewhere, once, (per Protestant theology) "we are saved by faith alone, not by believing in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone."

 

[truthseeker32]

Good post, Ignatius.

In the defense of Roman Catholicism I just wanted to state that their theology isn't the cut and dry scholasticism it is always made out to be. I know many Roman Catholics who hold beliefs that would be welcomed in an Orthodox parish. Just as in the Orthodox faith, there is a wide range of ideologies found among Catholics.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think the best little phrase I have heard about it is we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

 

[Ignatius21]

Good post, Ignatius.

In the defense of Roman Catholicism I just wanted to state that their theology isn't the cut and dry scholasticism it is always made out to be. I know many Roman Catholics who hold beliefs that would be welcomed in an Orthodox parish. Just as in the Orthodox faith, there is a wide range of ideologies found among Catholics.

Yes, well said. Nor does their doctrine teach that one's faith gets you part of the way, and then we have to climb the rest of the way ourselves. It's very scholastic in its approach, insanely nuanced, and very merit-oriented. But not all Catholics hold to exactly the same interperation of that.

It should also be noted that when speaking of synergy and man's "co-operation" with God, we aren't saying that God does X%, and man does (100-X)% to complement it, as though God can't or won't accomplish all of salvation. As St. Paul says, it is the Spirit who works in us to accomplish God's purpose, and he who began a good work in us will see it through to completion. God is accomplishing all of our salvation within us, but in such a way that our cooperation and co-working is a means by which God's salvation is actualized in our lives. We freely cooperate with God, but we have no room for boasting, and in no way do we improve upon what God has done, and is doing, to save his people. It's a mystery, the same mystery at work between Christ's human will and his divine will. Free, total cooperation between the human and the divine, neither overpowering or undercutting the other, and yet not adding up to 200% of God's work somehow. Christ is still ONE person. Our participation in this mystery is through Christ...our cooperation and obedience in our own salvation thus does not add to God's work. Rather his work is made present to us, in us, and through us in space and time through our cooperation.

Dunno if that makes any sense...really this defies words.

 

[Dorothea]

I like the way it's described by Fr. John in the book I'm reading:

Salvation involves much more than the forgiveness of sins, the justification of Western theology. Salvation is the "transformation" and deification of human nature through the experience of God's deifying grace which is actually a direct personal experience of God Himself through His uncreated energies.

 

[Atwood45]

Thanks for all the answers! all of them were very great. It seems to me that I myself being a Eastern Catholic truly believe in the Orthodox view on salvation, My protestant friends bring up how I am over complicating Christ by adding to his death and resurrection, I tried to explain that Faith without works is dead thus Faith and works kind of go hand in hand and one without the other is useless, but the way Armymatt put it makes way more sense so I thank you for that .

Godbless

 

[ArmyMatt]

I like the way it's described by Fr. John in the book I'm reading:

Salvation involves much more than the forgiveness of sins, the justification of Western theology. Salvation is the "transformation" and deification of human nature through the experience of God's deifying grace which is actually a direct personal experience of God Himself through His uncreated energies.

awesome way of putting it

 

[Dorothea]

awesome way of putting it

I thought so, too.

 

[Colleen1]

Interesting thread and great discussion. I think this topic is one of the ultimate questions of all Christians...faith, works, salvation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Interesting thread and great discussion. I think this topic is one of the ultimate questions of all Christians...faith, works, salvation.

yep, the only one more important I think is who God is.

 

[Colleen1]

yep, the only one more important I think is who God is.

Yes, the character of God and how we relate to Him...I would agree with this.

 

[Ignatius21]

Thanks for all the answers! all of them were very great. It seems to me that I myself being a Eastern Catholic truly believe in the Orthodox view on salvation, My protestant friends bring up how I am over complicating Christ by adding to his death and resurrection, I tried to explain that Faith without works is dead thus Faith and works kind of go hand in hand and one without the other is useless, but the way Armymatt put it makes way more sense so I thank you for that .

Godbless

Atwood45, you've hit on a key aspect of most Protestant theology. Without any room for mystery, beyond rational paradox, doctrines end up being what you could call "zero sum." Whatever man does in salvation must necessarily add to what God does. Think of the arguments between Calvinists and everyone else. Calvinists say salvation is "God 100%, Man 0%." And others will disagree and say "Oh no, we have a tiny part to play, so really it's like God 99.9%, man 0.1%," to which Calvinists will reply "Who are you, O Man, to boast about your 0.1% before God?" And so it goes.

But when you believe in "mystical math," the equation becomes 100% God + 100% man = 100% salvation. Just as 100% Divine nature + 100% human nature = 100% Christ, not 200%

Also bear in mind that "the Gospel" to many evangelicals has been reduced to "Jesus endured your punishment so you wouldn't go to Hell." Justification means "not going to hell." The question "how can I be saved?" equates to "How can I not go to hell?" "Are you saved?" means, of course, "If you died today are you sure you wouldn't go to hell?" With that simplistic focus, allowing any sort of works to be included in "salvation" means you would be adding to the work of Christ on the cross, because that work of Christ was understood as being what was necessary to keep you out of hell. But the question asked by the early Christians wasn't just "how can we escape hell" but "How can we bridge this chasm between God and Man that was brought on by our own sin, and our captivity to the Devil?" It took a cosmic rescue mission, a smash 'n grab from Hades itself, to overthrow the Devil and destroy death. A much bigger picture than just not going to hell.

And it always bugs me, too, that while I disagree with the RCC doctrine of Purgatory and all the merit theology that it entails, it remains a fact that Catholicism does NOT teach that suffering in Purgatory adds to the work of Christ in keeping you out of hell, because if you're in Purgatory you're already "saved" from Hell by the work of Christ alone. Classical definitions of Purgatory treat suffering as vindictive from God to balance the scales, as it were, so that all your temporal sins are appropriately paid for through justice. Orthodoxy sees the process of sanctification after death more like silver being refined through fire (a very Biblical metaphor)...if there is any suffering, it's more like the suffering that comes from having a surgeon remove the cancer from you.

I have talked to MANY Catholics who would affirm what I just said above, with full agreement. They would say the stuff about vindictive punishments, suffering for temporal sins, is a more "medieval" way to look at it, etc. But those dogmatic definitions remain in today's official explanations of Catholic doctrine on Purgatory, and it always seems to me that these people are shrugging it off a bit too easily...though I could very well be misunderstanding.

I think I've rambled enough

 

[americanvet]

If I may ask a question within this thread:

I have always seen Salvation as Christ grace with the evidence of that salvation shown by works of faith.

How does this go along with the Orthodox view? Thanks. And sorry to the op if this hi-jacks your thread.

 

[isshinwhat]

I like the way it's described by Fr. John in the book I'm reading:

Salvation involves much more than the forgiveness of sins, the justification of Western theology. Salvation is the "transformation" and deification of human nature through the experience of God's deifying grace which is actually a direct personal experience of God Himself through His uncreated energies.

I've enjoyed reading through this thread and would like your thoughts on the following. The Fathers of the Council of Trent taught that, "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." That same sentiment is echoed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1997-1999:

"Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life... The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification."

I, too, apologize if it jacks the thread, but Dorothea's quote above sounded remarkably like the Catechism to me. May you all have a blessed Sunday.

 

[Soderquj]

If I may ask a question within this thread:

I have always seen Salvation as Christ grace with the evidence of that salvation shown by works of faith.

How does this go along with the Orthodox view? Thanks. And sorry to the op if this hi-jacks your thread.

As stated earlier in this thread

we are saved by grace (which is a gift of God), through faith ( which is also a gift from God), for good works ( which are the fruits).

 

[ArmyMatt]

If I may ask a question within this thread:

I have always seen Salvation as Christ grace with the evidence of that salvation shown by works of faith.

How does this go along with the Orthodox view? Thanks. And sorry to the op if this hi-jacks your thread.

it works if you believe that the works are a part of the saving process and are done of our free will.

and welcome to TAW!