Eastern Orthodox view on Salvation?

[Atwood45]

I don't say it as a Protestant...I say it as a Believer in Jesus...IMO if something is unbiblical it is unbiblical, it doesn't matter what the source...Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Catholic, Orthodox or any other flavour



I don't have a problem with what is written here...although I do have a problem with other aspects of 'Dialogue with Typho' that strongly suggest Justin Martyr adheres to a form of anti-Semitism and therefore it disqualifies some of the authority behind his words.



I have looked at many of these apparent apparitions of Mary, and have to say with my hand on my heart that I do not find any of them inspiring or convincing...mainly because they often expose themselves by contradicting 'sound doctrine' especially through self-promotion and the promise of 'special graces' that appear to by-pass the only Name through which a person can be saved...I see them not as figments of peoples imagination, but more akin to spirits of deception.

I appreciate your response and your effort to encourage me to look at things to do with Othodoxy...but I will always do so with open eyes and give my honest response from the heart.
I don't mean to be negative in any way whatsoever...but I believe we all need to be able to exercise a little discernment before embracing certain doctrines, traditions or miraculous manifestations.

I include two quotes from the Fatima article you referred me too that high-light part of the problem with this apparition, which demonstrates what I have already stated, in that Mary is elevated to G-d-like status...this is simply an unacceptable, unbiblical, non-Apostolic teaching and immediately reminds me of this admonition:

Gal 1:8 ..." But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed..."

I have to say with deep concern my friend, that what is being put forward as a godly appearance and divine sign is nothing more than a deceptive spirit, and it absolutely grieves me that such a thing should be so widely embraced and accepted.

"The Hearts of Jesus and Mary are attentive to the voice of your supplications", the Angel told the children.

...'And meanwhile God and the Immaculate Heart are increasingly offended,...'

I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say to you, I am NOT trying to backup a Contrary Gospel to the one Jesus preached, and I am NOT trying to prove something unbiblical. What I am trying to tell you is that your interpretation and understanding of scripture could easily be off-based, it could EASILY be taken out of context. What I am trying to get across is that your interpretation is not infallible, so NEITHER is mine. This being said there must be something that is infallible and I believe that to be the church, not only from scripture(Matt 16:18-20, 1 Timothy 3:15 specifically) but also from tracing back to the apostles, which the first KNOWN apologetic of Christianity where very Orthodox in their believes, this leads me to not think I am defending a false gospel, but rather the opposite, by rejecting the true interpretation of the bible and trying to deem yourself as infallible in interpretation and understanding of the scriptures I can easily say what your saying to me is un-scriptural, because the very fact of private interpretation of the bible and Sola-scriptura is not only not Biblical, its historically what caused heresy, the Gnastics being the first. So, OPEN your heart and mind and try to understand the Orthodox perspective on mary, before condemning it without further though, because Sola-scriptura is unbiblical no matter how you twist it.


Also, on Justin-Martyr, you believe him to be Anti-Semitic so his word shouldn't be taken seriously? I am going to remind you of two things. One, ALL of the church fathers expressed honour to Mary and saw her as the God-bearer and the ark of the new covenant, I just used his quote as an example.

Two, Martin Luther was one of the most Anti-Semitic person to ever live on the planet. His Ideology on the Jews was used in many of Hitlers speech to try and Justify what he was doing in the holocaust, so by this Logic one shouldn't take Martin Luthers word for any authority behind his words either? Of course you don't think that, as your whole Ideology and theological opinions where started by Martin Luther in some way or another, so by this logic since Luther was very Anti-Semitic, his word had no authority, thus your whole theology in your own eyes has no authority, as it was created by a Anti-Semitic man in the 1500's.

On the miracles. since its late I have not really read what you said on them, nor have I even finished reading all your points, I am not responding to it, as its very late, but I was just giving some examples, seeing truth in a faith shouldn't be found by Miracles aswell, It should be found through research and seeking.

I just wanted to let you know that your approach on this is very close-minded and should be looked into with more of a open mind and a eagerness to learn. You cannot state something is un-biblical and UN-APOSTOLIC when you have no authority to actually determine the truth in this statement(In fact, if you did your research you would find out it IS biblical and IS apostolic). Secondly, to condemn the word of St.Justin Martyr just because you believe him to be anti-Semitic is very Hypocritical, sine Luther was very ant-Semitic, and he was the inspiration behind many of Hitlers attempts to justify his anti-Semitic actions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I realise the Catholic Church sees Rev 12 as a reference to Mary...but most of the commentaries I have read affirm that it is representative of the Body of Messiah...eg all Believers, the 'Church'.

well, it can be seen as both. Mary functions as a type of the Church. she is the living Temple in whom God dwells (literally for nine months), and she is the first person to become Christlike by grace.

and there is nothing about her that is anything that is not offered to us all. she is the great exemplar of what we are all called to be.

 

[Dorothea]

I do not want to break the Forum rules as I engage with my Orthodox brethren in this section of the Boards, so if anything I write causes offence or concern please understand that I am trying to be sincere, respectful and totally open and honest about how I view things and where I am coming from...I am not seeking to teach or appear controversial, but I do have many years as a Believer behind me, and therefore have strongly held beliefs and understandings that I trust are Scripturally based and when challenged will no doubt be expressed in the best way I know how.

I am really interested in Eastern Orthodoxy...and wonder if there is room for diversity within this framework of traditional belief...I mean could someone be a signed up member as it were and yet find some things unacceptable...or does there have to be a uniformity of belief that subjects itself to the authority of the teachings of Church Fathers and exalted Saints?

Could you give us an example of what types of beliefs that you are speaking of that may be flexible or what not?

I do know people have become catechumens who were not inclined toward asking the Saints' intercessions, or understanding icons completely either. Even though I didn't grow up in the Church, when I came back to it in my early 20's, I had no clue about anything, but since it was the only Church I felt at home in (not really knowing any others but a couple non denominational ones on the AF bases we lived on), I didn't really get the Saints or what icons were for. It took me a little over 10 years to first ask a few Saints for their prayers. I just never understood it, nor did I know how to, nor did I feel the need to. Ever since then, my closeness to my brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before me has grown. I now cannot imagine not having them in my life, a good part of my life as part of His Body. I've found most folks who come to the EOC, those two things are stumbling blocks for them, and in time, they get it. It's what a priest called the "inner life" of the church, so it's not usually understood too well outside of it, but not impossible!

I have a friend who has come to believe the EOC is the ancient and closest and truest Church of Christ out there, and she grew up Methodist, then fell away in her teens and the few decades following. She came back to Christ when her sister (who was devoted to Christ) died of cancer a few years ago. She then started asking me questions, as we'd "met" on a message board a few years before when she was agnostic. The first year, she didn't agree at all with icons or the petitioning of the Saints for their prayers. Then a year later, she understood and accepted the icons. Then, more recently, she has begun to understand the Saints, but not to the point where she feels she wants to ask for their prayers. It's a slow process, especially if one has never been exposed to this, nor were they brought up to understand the Saints in this way through the Scriptures.

There are a few good podcasts on the Intercession of the Saints. One is this one by Fr. Peter Gillquist (may his memory be eternal):

Fr. Peter Gillquist - Intercession Of The Saints - Orthodox Conference on Missions and Evangelism 2009 - Ancient Faith Radio

And this excellent one by Fr. Josiah Trenham:

The Saints The Great Cloud Of Witnesses - The Arena - Ancient Faith Radio


Coincidentally, my friend really loves to listen to Fr. Josiah. She has learned a lot, she says, from him, and other videos she watched on her own and asked me at times if the videos on you tube she picked were authentic to Orthodoxy.

 

[Zeek]

I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say to you, I am NOT trying to backup a Contrary Gospel to the one Jesus preached, and I am NOT trying to prove something unbiblical. What I am trying to tell you is that your interpretation and understanding of scripture could easily be off-based, it could EASILY be taken out of context. What I am trying to get across is that your interpretation is not infallible, so NEITHER is mine. This being said there must be something that is infallible and I believe that to be the church, not only from scripture(Matt 16:18-20, 1 Timothy 3:15 specifically) but also from tracing back to the apostles, which the first KNOWN apologetic of Christianity where very Orthodox in their believes, this leads me to not think I am defending a false gospel, but rather the opposite, by rejecting the true interpretation of the bible and trying to deem yourself as infallible in interpretation and understanding of the scriptures I can easily say what your saying to me is un-scriptural, because the very fact of private interpretation of the bible and Sola-scriptura is not only not Biblical, its historically what caused heresy, the Gnastics being the first. So, OPEN your heart and mind and try to understand the Orthodox perspective on mary, before condemning it without further though, because Sola-scriptura is unbiblical no matter how you twist it.

Hi Atwood,

Just briefly...why do you presume I have a Sola-Scriptura perspective...I have no problem with teachings or traditions that are outside of the Bible as long as they conform to sound doctrine.

I don't know what you mean by private interpretation...ever since I have been a Believer G-d has led me and taught me Scriptural truth through the leading of the Holy Spirit...I don't always get it right, and sometimes I am as slow on the uptake as some of the disciples appeared to be...but I get fed and mu spirit is nourished. If I am off base on anything, I am secure in the knowledge that friends and leaders will help correct me as I am a very willing learner and I hope a conscientious disciple.

Also, on Justin-Martyr, you believe him to be Anti-Semitic so his word shouldn't be taken seriously? I am going to remind you of two things. One, ALL of the church fathers expressed honour to Mary and saw her as the God-bearer and the ark of the new covenant, I just used his quote as an example.

Not quite what I said...I was suggesting that he weakens his authority in what he tries to put across when one understands some of the views he held.

I did not realise there was conformity throughout the people referred to as Church fathers regarding the status of Mary...historically I had always seen it as a progression that gathered momentum and snow-balled into something many perhaps would not have agreed upon a century or two before.

Two, Martin Luther was one of the most Anti-Semitic person to ever live on the planet. His Ideology on the Jews was used in many of Hitlers speech to try and Justify what he was doing in the holocaust, so by this Logic one shouldn't take Martin Luthers word for any authority behind his words either? Of course you don't think that, as your whole Ideology and theological opinions where started by Martin Luther in some way or another, so by this logic since Luther was very Anti-Semitic, his word had no authority, thus your whole theology in your own eyes has no authority, as it was created by a Anti-Semitic man in the 1500's.

Just so you know, I do not have any fondness for Martin Luther...I think he was a harsh and violent individual, and as you rightly point out a very notable anti-Semite. There were plenty of other godly people around that disagreed with Rome and believed in salvation through faith...but Luther made the noise, had the position and got the credit...

On the miracles. since its late I have not really read what you said on them, nor have I even finished reading all your points, I am not responding to it, as its very late, but I was just giving some examples, seeing truth in a faith shouldn't be found by Miracles aswell, It should be found through research and seeking.

I am very open to miracles when they are of G-d and when they line up with the word of G-d and do not present something that is false.

I just wanted to let you know that your approach on this is very close-minded and should be looked into with more of a open mind and a eagerness to learn.

I think you mistake my robust approach as representing a closed mind....I assure you I am very open-minded and always eager to learn...but I am not willing to have the wool pulled over my eyes by things that do not add up, or seem contrary to sound doctrine. Also I come from a different tradition, so it must be expected that I will weigh up things according to what I have learnt...but at least I am aware that I come with certain pre-conceived ideas that I probably don't even recognise...I think we all do to lesser or greater extents.

I think if we are patient and friendly with one another it goes a great way to better understanding what is being said and why...even if we are not convinced by what is being said...at least we can see Christian love and respect in the way it is discussed.

Secondly, to condemn the word of St.Justin Martyr just because you believe him to be anti-Semitic is very Hypocritical, sine Luther was very ant-Semitic, and he was the inspiration behind many of Hitlers attempts to justify his anti-Semitic actions.

Seriously my friend, you are jumping to a few unwarranted conclusions/judgments about me...I don't disregard everything Justin Martyr wrote, but I am aware of his fallibility because of his stance against the Jews...same with many other early Church fathers and in particular with Martin Luther.

I have absolutely no axe to grind with any historical traditions...but we have to be up-front and honest about the lives of some of these people and not place them on some sort of pedestal.

 

[Zeek]

well, it can be seen as both. Mary functions as a type of the Church. she is the living Temple in whom God dwells (literally for nine months), and she is the first person to become Christlike by grace.

and there is nothing about her that is anything that is not offered to us all. she is the great exemplar of what we are all called to be.

I can live with most of that...while still looking into it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can live with most of that...while still looking into it.

it's all good. if Orthodoxy is what we all believe it to be, we have nothing to prove, so we aren't going anywhere. take your time with this stuff.

 

[Zeek]

Could you give us an example of what types of beliefs that you are speaking of that may be flexible or what not?

Hi Dorothea,

The extremes I see regarding the veneration of Mary.
Communion with the Saints.
Petitions to Angels.

That sort of stuff...it just doesn't gel...neither does the idea that the Church is built on Peter, rather than the G-d inspired faith that Peter expressed when honouring Jesus as Messiah....but I think Orthodoxy is more on track in this area that the Catholic view. (on track according to my understanding)

I do know people have become catechumens who were not inclined toward asking the Saints' intercessions, or understanding icons completely either. Even though I didn't grow up in the Church, when I came back to it in my early 20's, I had no clue about anything, but since it was the only Church I felt at home in (not really knowing any others but a couple non denominational ones on the AF bases we lived on), I didn't really get the Saints or what icons were for. It took me a little over 10 years to first ask a few Saints for their prayers. I just never understood it, nor did I know how to, nor did I feel the need to. Ever since then, my closeness to my brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before me has grown. I now cannot imagine not having them in my life, a good part of my life as part of His Body. I've found most folks who come to the EOC, those two things are stumbling blocks for them, and in time, they get it. It's what a priest called the "inner life" of the church, so it's not usually understood too well outside of it, but not impossible!

I think I can understand this a little better now...especially knowing we are part of a larger Body...many of whom are now with the L-rd...I can see how it can widen your horizons and get you to appreciate there is no separation between us even at death....but can you tell me :-

1. How confident you are your petitions to the Saints or Mary prevail with G-d and have a direct influence...where is your authority or recommendation that this is acceptable and expedient?

2. How do you know the ones you are petitioning are even with the L-rd, as you don't know what was in their hearts, and you can't have any insight into the spiritual condition of most of them?

I have a friend who has come to believe the EOC is the ancient and closest and truest Church of Christ out there, and she grew up Methodist, then fell away in her teens and the few decades following. She came back to Christ when her sister (who was devoted to Christ) died of cancer a few years ago. She then started asking me questions, as we'd "met" on a message board a few years before when she was agnostic. The first year, she didn't agree at all with icons or the petitioning of the Saints for their prayers. Then a year later, she understood and accepted the icons. Then, more recently, she has begun to understand the Saints, but not to the point where she feels she wants to ask for their prayers. It's a slow process, especially if one has never been exposed to this, nor were they brought up to understand the Saints in this way through the Scriptures.

Interesting...I find these sort of personal testimonies get me thinking, and are a helpful source of information that is real without being all religious.

There are a few good podcasts on the Intercession of the Saints. One is this one by Fr. Peter Gillquist (may his memory be eternal):

Fr. Peter Gillquist - Intercession Of The Saints - Orthodox Conference on Missions and Evangelism 2009 - Ancient Faith Radio

And this excellent one by Fr. Josiah Trenham:

The Saints The Great Cloud Of Witnesses - The Arena - Ancient Faith Radio

I will try and listen to some when I get the chance...I think you gave me some others about a year and a half ago that were actually very good in most aspects.

Coincidentally, my friend really loves to listen to Fr. Josiah. She has learned a lot, she says, from him, and other videos she watched on her own and asked me at times if the videos on you tube she picked were authentic to Orthodoxy.

I could do with listening to some good solid biblical teachers that actually know how to open up the Scriptures...so will have a look....I can get the Ancient Faith broadcast on my i-phone, so will channel in from time to time.

Thanks for your help and advice...lol I can understand how some things might be a slow process...I'm the sort of person who has to fully understand something inside out before I will take a bite.

All the best. Zazal

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. How confident you are your petitions to the Saints or Mary prevail with G-d and have a direct influence...where is your authority or recommendation that this is acceptable and expedient?

2. How do you know the ones you are petitioning are even with the L-rd, as you don't know what was in their hearts, and you can't have any insight into the spiritual condition of most of them?

I would say that we are confident because we see the fruits of those petitions, and it has been constant for 2000 years. we know it is acceptable because it can be found in Scripture. in St Peter's Epistle, he talks about when he puts off this tent (his body, ie his coming martyrdom), he will continue to labor for the Church.

as for your second paragraph, again we see the fruits. the saints are constantly helping us on earth and have been. it's not like Mary's acts are somehow small, isolated, and only happened back in the early centuries. she is just as active as she always has been. because she, being conformed in Christ (as everyone in heaven is), she still loves us and wants to help us.

 

[Atwood45]

Hi Atwood,

Just briefly...why do you presume I have a Sola-Scriptura perspective...I have no problem with teachings or traditions that are outside of the Bible as long as they conform to sound doctrine.

I don't know what you mean by private interpretation...ever since I have been a Believer G-d has led me and taught me Scriptural truth through the leading of the Holy Spirit...I don't always get it right, and sometimes I am as slow on the uptake as some of the disciples appeared to be...but I get fed and mu spirit is nourished. If I am off base on anything, I am secure in the knowledge that friends and leaders will help correct me as I am a very willing learner and I hope a conscientious disciple.

I presume it because you were stating that the marian doctrines were un-biblical and that you disagree with the beliefs because you believe it to be unbiblical? If that isn't sola-scriptura than I don't know what is. It honestly seems YOU don't even know what you believe, because there is only two churches in the world that claim to have preserved the Apostolic faith, and thats the Orthodox and Catholic. Both of these churches have a very similar understanding on the intercession of mary(and the significance of mary) and the saints, and so do the EARLIEST of Christians. I have a simple question to you, How do you know your interpreting scripture right? you don't, the holy spirit was promised to guide the church to truth, not to guide every individual who reads scripture to truth, or else there wouldn't 15,000+ denominations(and thats a conservative estimate). So, by your statement here you say you believe in Apostolic tradition and scripture. So I ask you; What in your opinion is Apostolic Tradition? How do YOU know what sound doctrine is in light of this tradition? The easiest way to find out the truth in scripture and tradition is to go to History, and you will find a lot of what you believed to be un-sound doctrine is truth and what you believe to be sound-doctrine is infact heretical.



Not quite what I said...I was suggesting that he weakens his authority in what he tries to put across when one understands some of the views he held.

I did not realise there was conformity throughout the people referred to as Church fathers regarding the status of Mary...historically I had always seen it as a progression that gathered momentum and snow-balled into something many perhaps would not have agreed upon a century or two before.

What you said here makes no sense. St. Justin Martyr taught the views of Christians at this time, I don't think he ever made it a necessity to be Anti-Semitic to be a Christian, so your statement is very illogical. If you believe the status of Mary isn't historical and it turned into something it wasn't over time, well, your wrong, thats the only way I can put this, If you believe this you haven't really gone in-depth with early Christian Theology at all, Ignatius, Ireaneus, St.Justin, Clement, all these men honored Mary as their mother, and seen her as the god-bearer, its quite clear, I am not going to cite a thousand quotes to prove I am right, but instead going to encourage you to actually research this and find the truth.



Just so you know, I do not have any fondness for Martin Luther...I think he was a harsh and violent individual, and as you rightly point out a very notable anti-Semite. There were plenty of other godly people around that disagreed with Rome and believed in salvation through faith...but Luther made the noise, had the position and got the credit...

Yes, but all of your believes stemmed off Luther, to deny this is to deny history, if wasn't for Luther the reformation would not have happened.

I am very open to miracles when they are of G-d and when they line up with the word of G-d and do not present something that is false.

Again, you have no authority to say that these miracles present something that is false. In fact, if you look at what these miracles did and taught, it was in-line with church teaching.

I think you mistake my robust approach as representing a closed mind....I assure you I am very open-minded and always eager to learn...but I am not willing to have the wool pulled over my eyes by things that do not add up, or seem contrary to sound doctrine. Also I come from a different tradition, so it must be expected that I will weigh up things according to what I have learnt...but at least I am aware that I come with certain pre-conceived ideas that I probably don't even recognise...I think we all do to lesser or greater extents.

I think if we are patient and friendly with one another it goes a great way to better understanding what is being said and why...even if we are not convinced by what is being said...at least we can see Christian love and respect in the way it is discussed.



Seriously my friend, you are jumping to a few unwarranted conclusions/judgments about me...I don't disregard everything Justin Martyr wrote, but I am aware of his fallibility because of his stance against the Jews...same with many other early Church fathers and i particular with Martin Luther.

I have absolutely no axe to grind with any historical traditions...but we have to be up-front and honest about the lives of some of these people and not place them on some sort of pedestal

Ok, if you have a open mind as you claim, I seriously encourage you to understand that YOU have no authority to judge if something is sound doctrine or Apostolic tradition, you and I are both mere fallible men, and only Sacred Scripture, Tradition and the Church is infallible(And this claim I made is Historically Accurate) Also, regarding St.Justin Martyr, you can't pick and chose which doctrines he teaches to be right or wrong, its either you he's teaching truth or heresy, and I think we all, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant don't see St. Justin Martyr as Heretic, and he actually helps defend the truth against heresies. Many of his writings about doctrine protestants don't accept, so its either in my opinion you accept the full revelation of Christ, all of his teachings, or you pick and choice to which ones YOU seem to be sound, not the ones Christ himself instituted when he established his VISIBLE church.

Honestly, its historical and Biblical to Interpret Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition, and it seems you agree with me. So in saying this I encourage you to look into history and into what the Early Christians taught, and compare them with the sects of Christianity today, I can guarantee if you DONT believe in Sola-scriptura(as you stated) that you will realize that Mary is Mother of god, and Sinless, and that honoring her and praying through her is not a corrupt doctrine but is true Christianity, because its apart of Sacred tradition and the Early Christianity made the connection between Mary and Eve, they also made the Connection between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the new(Mary). What I don't want you doing is picking and choosing quotes from church fathers but actually reading the Primary sources where these quotes come from, because in context you have to have the most closed mind possible to not see the orthodoxy in their beliefs. God Bless

Also, I am not trying to debate with you, and I don't believe this forum is for debating, im just trying to show you that what your saying right now, your believes, are slightly confusing and that if you DONT practice Sola-scriptura it is very easy to look into history to find the truth Apostolic tradition, as it seems to me your sect of Christianity only picks and chooses which doctrines they believe to be sound, but not what the Universal church believes to be sound.

 

[Ignatius21]

Should this perhaps be moved into a debate forum? Not to nit-pick, but at this point the thread has moved away from its original topic, and has become a debate between a Catholic and an Evangelical in an Orthodox forum

I find it interesting and would love to join in, but perhaps this is not the place for it.

And thanks to Dot for suggesting the book. I hope to order it!

 

[Dorothea]

1. How confident you are your petitions to the Saints or Mary prevail with G-d and have a direct influence...where is your authority or recommendation that this is acceptable and expedient?

2. How do you know the ones you are petitioning are even with the L-rd, as you don't know what was in their hearts, and you can't have any insight into the spiritual condition of most of them?

What Matt said is true. For me personally, I know they answer my asking for their prayers because I've experienced it back in 2008...the very first time I asked prayers of the Saints. I was feeling helpless at the time because my son's MRI at the time was saying his brain tumor and cyst it produces had grown a bit, and the doctor was saying he may have to have chemotherapy, which would be a year long, and I worried much about it, as I tended (and still do at times because my faith is weak at times) to worry, especially over my son's health. My husband was in S. Korea at the time (he was in the Air Force), and he wasn't going to be home for about 3 more months. My son and our family had gone through so much when he was an infant and up through that time and to a lesser degree, now, that I was feeling hopeless, which isn't good. I prayed all the time, every night to God for his healing. And for some reason, asking the Saints to pray came to my head. I was reminded of St. John of San Francisco and Shanghai because my former priest had given us holy oil from his monastery in San Fran, and had anointed my son with it when we still lived in the Spokane, WA area. I'd never seen a picture of St. John, nor did I know his story. All I knew and was told was that he was a wonderworker, and he was close to children and was a wonderworker for children. I had just started reading my first book on a Saint - and it was St. Nektarios of Aegina. He is the Patron Saint of those with cancer. Although, my son's brain tumor was benign, the remnant is still stuck on the tip of his brainstem because doctors cannot operate on the brainstem because it causes death, and so I was told to ask him for prayers (which I never did til then), and of course, the Theotokos....I knew she was important and the Mother of Christ, and that she loved everyone. That was the extent of what I knew then. So, really, I felt I had nothing to lose, and was quite desperate for some "help" to give me some peace of mind, really, and so, I fumbled around for a bit trying to figure out what I was supposed to say, how to ask. And then, I just said it: "Most Holy Theotokos, St. John, St. Nektarios...please pray for my son." That's all I said. And within a half hour or more, I literally felt a weight lift off of my shoulders, and I experienced all my worries and struggles being taken off of me and them taking on these struggles through their prayers. The rest of the month, I was at peace. Even when I took my son back the next month for a second MRI to see if his tumor had grown before deciding to do the chemo. The whole time, I was at peace and felt happy (it was very odd for me...especially me being the worrywart I was). Anyway, when the doc came in and said the tumor hadn't grown, nor the cyst, but both had shrunk, and that he didn't know why, but they did, I knew he was going to say this. I already knew the outcome. Anyway, no chemo for my son, and I was very happy and thanked the Saints for their prayers, and they continue to pray for him. Many people are praying for him, including monks and nuns at many monasteries in Greece, even on Mt. Athos. Anyway, because of this experience, I know they hear our prayers and intercede for us. In fact, that's what they do constantly up in heaven, as it shows in Revelation. Give glory to God through the heavenly worship, and pray for all of us, when those prayers as incense in bowls they hold and pray for us.

I also know by reading some life after death stories from both Orthodox and non Orthodox Christians that a person's senses are more acute when their souls have left their bodies. The blind can see, they can hear more acutely. They hear what people are saying on earth, but the people on earth can't hear them because they're in a limited space - on earth. And whatever limbs they had lost were restored.

Intercession for all will continue until His Second Coming.

The authority is the prayers of the righteous avail much. Those who have finished the race, cheer us on from the stands. The Cloud of witnesses. Because we are to pray for one another. Through the Holy Spirit, we are all connected as one Body. Christ is the Head and we are His Body.

As far as knowing if a person is a Saint, it is through witnesses around the person that they know this through their actions, fruits, etc. There is a sense of holiness not easy to explain when you are around these types of people. It is evident because the person who has great love for God and neighbor is felt, the Light of Christ permeates those around the person. Those we know of that are Saints, we ask of their prayers. There are many Saints we don't know of. It is said in Sirach about how we are to praise these saints.

I also like what Fr. Josiah says in the podcast I posted for you. This short piece I thought was really telling:

Fr. Josiah Trenham: "One of the great Athonite Fathers of the early 20th century was a man named Kalistratos (sp?), Fr. Kalistratos. When I read his life as a new priest, I've never forgotten it. I've thought of it every year, because it says in his life that he knew this, what I'm telling you, the reality of the Saints, the fact that they're more alive than we are. He knew this in experience.

I brought a little quote from his life. Listen to this. Fr. Kalistratos - reality was 'in those who existed behind the icons and frescos' - the Saints who were depicted. Those who moved about him clothed in flesh and blood - that's us - those who moved about him clothed in flesh and blood, seemed to him just symbolic and deceptive as shadows. Though dead, he considered the Saints his true friends. But the living, he considered uncertain. When one bishop asked him what is the most important thing for a priest. He answered "The most important thing is to communicate first with the Master, afterwards with the lords of the Master's servants, and finally with the Master's servants." The Master is He who he called Christ. The Master's servants' lords are the Saints, but the Master's servants are the people of this world."

 

[Dorothea]

Should this perhaps be moved into a debate forum? Not to nit-pick, but at this point the thread has moved away from its original topic, and has become a debate between a Catholic and an Evangelical in an Orthodox forum

I find it interesting and would love to join in, but perhaps this is not the place for it.

And thanks to Dot for suggesting the book. I hope to order it!

You're welcome!

 

[Zeek]

Thank you everyone for you interaction, help and advice...I will continue to look into these things...there was much more I would have liked to discuss but I think Ignatius points out this is not the place or maybe even the Board, so I will reluctantly depart and just watch and read unless I see a thread in which I can freely participate without bending the rules.

In brother love. Zazal

 

[Knee V]

Thank you everyone for you interaction, help and advice...I will continue to look into these things...there was much more I would have liked to discuss but I think Ignatius points out this is not the place or maybe even the Board, so I will reluctantly depart and just watch and read unless I see a thread in which I can freely participate without bending the rules.

In brother love. Zazal

If the rules were being bent in this thread, you can freely discuss these types of things here http://www.christianforums.com/f827/ without bending any rules.

 

[Zeek]

If the rules were being bent in this thread, you can freely discuss these types of things here http://www.christianforums.com/f827/ without bending any rules.

Thanks for pointing it out bro...never realised it existed.

Mind you...having checked it out things aren't exactly whizzing around in there.

 

[Dorothea]

Zazal, you are welcome to continue asking respectful questions here, as I feel you've been doing. I'm ok with that. I don't know about the others here.

 

[Protoevangel]

Thanks for pointing it out bro...never realised it existed.

Mind you...having checked it out things aren't exactly whizzing around in there.

As long as you are asking questions and not debating, you'll get better feedback here. If there is a topic you really need to hash through on though, take it there, and someone will help you out.

 

[Protoevangel]

Zazal, you are welcome to continue asking respectful questions here, as I feel you've been doing. I'm ok with that. I don't know about the others here.

That'll teach me to hit reply, then go get a plate of dinner before submitting it. lol

 

[Dorothea]

That'll teach me to hit reply, then go get a plate of dinner before submitting it. lol

 

[Augustinosia]

Could you give us an example of what types of beliefs that you are speaking of that may be flexible or what not?

I do know people have become catechumens who were not inclined toward asking the Saints' intercessions, or understanding icons completely either. Even though I didn't grow up in the Church, when I came back to it in my early 20's, I had no clue about anything, but since it was the only Church I felt at home in (not really knowing any others but a couple non denominational ones on the AF bases we lived on), I didn't really get the Saints or what icons were for. It took me a little over 10 years to first ask a few Saints for their prayers. I just never understood it, nor did I know how to, nor did I feel the need to. Ever since then, my closeness to my brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before me has grown. I now cannot imagine not having them in my life, a good part of my life as part of His Body. I've found most folks who come to the EOC, those two things are stumbling blocks for them, and in time, they get it. It's what a priest called the "inner life" of the church, so it's not usually understood too well outside of it, but not impossible!

I have a friend who has come to believe the EOC is the ancient and closest and truest Church of Christ out there, and she grew up Methodist, then fell away in her teens and the few decades following. She came back to Christ when her sister (who was devoted to Christ) died of cancer a few years ago. She then started asking me questions, as we'd "met" on a message board a few years before when she was agnostic. The first year, she didn't agree at all with icons or the petitioning of the Saints for their prayers. Then a year later, she understood and accepted the icons. Then, more recently, she has begun to understand the Saints, but not to the point where she feels she wants to ask for their prayers. It's a slow process, especially if one has never been exposed to this, nor were they brought up to understand the Saints in this way through the Scriptures.

There are a few good podcasts on the Intercession of the Saints. One is this one by Fr. Peter Gillquist (may his memory be eternal):

And this excellent one by Fr. Josiah Trenham:

Coincidentally, my friend really loves to listen to Fr. Josiah. She has learned a lot, she says, from him, and other videos she watched on her own and asked me at times if the videos on you tube she picked were authentic to Orthodoxy.

Dorothea, thanks for posting these links! I'm convinced Orthodoxy is Christianity in all its fullness, yet struggling with the whole concept of venerating and asking intercession of Mary and the Saints vs Protestant prohibitions/warnings against the practice. I found the podcasts, especially Fr. Peter Gillquist's one, very helpful. Thanks again!

Deborah

Edit: links removed from original post as my post count is too low to reply to posts with active hyperlinks