Eastern Orthodox view on Salvation?

[Thekla]

Hiya...

Thanks I checked that out...it seems that most agree it dated from around 250AD...I would really like to follow how it developed from there and who established it as an 'acceptable practice' for Christians and by what 'authority' they made the ruling.

Please excuse me if some of this is repetition for you !

At any rate, the date of origin of this hymn/prayer is unknown, but indeed the record of it is quite early. From what I know, there is not a clear record of the use before and after (perhaps in part because not much has survived from that period, and it can't be assumed that everything was written).

Similar hymn/prayers are used for multitudes of Saints - you will hear them chanted weekly in parishes of their "namesake", and on the Feast day/commemoration. Being steeped in the Liturgical life 'interprets' their use; there is a default understanding that we are asking for their prayers to God. Their lives in Christ, which represent the victory of Christ in each Saint, are examples for us. And that it is God working, in and through them, that is the ultimate source of the answer - like the healings in the NT after the Ascension of Christ.

Precedent for asking the righteous departed for their prayers to God exists in Judaism, and according to several (Jewish) sources this originates with Joseph the Patriarch. (If you google "Rachel's Tomb", you can read about this.) As I've mentioned before, neither Christ nor the Apostles are recorded as commenting on or 'correcting' this practice.

In Christianity, which early saw itself as the 'fulfillment' of Judaism in Christ, much was brought forward - the hours of prayer, chanting of the Psalms/hymns, etc. Now that the understanding was that Christ had indeed 'recapitulated all things, Heaven and earth', joined in His body by the Holy Spirit (Heaven and earth), and 'come to the Heavenly Jerusalem, to the spirits of just men made perfect (completed) - asking those who are present with us in in Him would seem 'natural/normal'.

Some of the thoughts I am pursuing, no longer challenge Othodoxy and Catholicism over their primacy as the oldest established elements of the ekklesia...but rather the source of their authority, and whether some of their practices (ones that I struggle to see biblically) have not tainted what started off as ancient congregations in the tradition of the biblical Apostles and polluted some of the purity by adopting teachings and traditions that run contrary to sound doctrine.

I don't mean to be prickly, but to this must be asked "what/which" sound doctrine, and from where does this derive its authority ? And also in what particular way is the practice viewed which might be different from the view of its practitioners ? Biblically, we do know that God hears and answers the prayers of the departed - He answers Rachel with reassurance (Jeremiah). Then also, how we understand the verses (above) from Paul, can locate or not depending on understanding, this practice.

It is like trying to fit a very large, difficult jig-saw together and being unsure if all the pieces are actually on the table....then trying to force some pieces into places where they just won't fit.

Maybe you're forcing the pieces into the wrong place - try another area of the puzzle Ie, looking at things somewhat differently. Or moreso, looking at things not as a puzzle, but trying to get the gist of the whole before investigating the parts, as none are actually pieces 'on their own' but in a context.

"I have always hated doing jig-saws...but this is a different type.''

God bless your efforts +

 

[Zeek]

I get that it was not the core teaching. however, if a sinner in torment can petition a saint, why can't the rest of us?

Well bro the way I see it is that Jesus has presented His disciples with a lesson in the form of a parable...He is the only one who truly understands what is taking place, and the why, when, how and where. In this example any jurisdiction Abraham has is purely confined to the realm of Hades at that time...there is no sense that he has any authority outside what is presented in the parable...but he would be a dominant figure in that pre-heavenly domain..even in his shadowy pre-resurrection form.

Also, if this really was representative of our authority to petition those faithful Believers who have gone on before...you would expect to see it in operation throughout Scripture, certainly in the New Covenant teachings, or within Apostolic teaching.

That is why I am deeply curious as to its genesis, and how it emerged and became a tangible doctrine believed and practiced by many, and from where the authority arose that bound this as truth in Heaven...who breathed life into it and can I trust them.

 

[Atwood45]

No offense, Atwood, but Zazal is asking sincere questions about things he is struggling to understand. He is not being disrespectful, and is welcome to keep asking.

Most of us in the forum have been where he is now.

Mary

I wouldn't have a problem if he was asking questions, but he's clearly making statements..... the way I read his posts is not a question like "WHY are u right" but more like "You could be right on this, but the Marian doctrines are not sound doctrines" He is not asking "Why is the practice of intercession of mary and the saints practice?" He is stating that the intercession of saints and mary is not sound doctrine, this is what is agitating me, the way he posts it makes it seem he has his mind made up on mary without a real good reason.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

Hiya...

Thanks I checked that out...it seems that most agree it dated from around 250AD...I would really like to follow how it developed from there and who established it as an 'acceptable practice' for Christians and by what 'authority' they made the ruling.
​

Please excuse me if some of this is repetition for you !

At any rate, the date of origin of this hymn/prayer is unknown, but indeed the record of it is quite early. From what I know, there is not a clear record of the use before and after (perhaps in part because not much has survived from that period, and it can't be assumed that everything was written).

Similar hymn/prayers are used for multitudes of Saints - you will hear them chanted weekly in parishes of their "namesake", and on the Feast day/commemoration. Being steeped in the Liturgical life 'interprets' their use; there is a default understanding that we are asking for their prayers to God. Their lives in Christ, which represent the victory of Christ in each Saint, are examples for us. And that it is God working, in and through them, that is the ultimate source of the answer - like the healings in the NT after the Ascension of Christ.

Yes I have been through this a number of times in the past, and with you, but it is good to be reminded. I don't have any problem honouring great men and women of G-d...celebrating a feast day dedicated to them...but I do have a problem with some of the prayers, sung and spoken on these days...because honestly they go too far in my understanding.

Precedent for asking the righteous departed for their prayers to God exists in Judaism, and according to several (Jewish) sources this originates with Joseph the Patriarch. (If you google "Rachel's Tomb", you can read about this.) As I've mentioned before, neither Christ nor the Apostles are recorded as commenting on or 'correcting' this practice.

I remeber this well, and I still find it very tenuous.

In Christianity, which early saw itself as the 'fulfillment' of Judaism in Christ, much was brought forward - the hours of prayer, chanting of the Psalms/hymns, etc. Now that the understanding was that Christ had indeed 'recapitulated all things, Heaven and earth', joined in His body by the Holy Spirit (Heaven and earth), and 'come to the Heavenly Jerusalem, to the spirits of just men made perfect (completed) - asking those who are present with us in in Him would seem 'natural/normal'.

Hmmm...this is an interesting way of explaining things, I hadn't looked at it quite this way before...I will bear this in mind and give it further thought, and pursue it through Scripture.

Some of the thoughts I am pursuing, no longer challenge Othodoxy and Catholicism over their primacy as the oldest established elements of the ekklesia...but rather the source of their authority, and whether some of their practices (ones that I struggle to see biblically) have not tainted what started off as ancient congregations in the tradition of the biblical Apostles and polluted some of the purity by adopting teachings and traditions that run contrary to sound doctrine.
​

I don't mean to be prickly, but to this must be asked "what/which" sound doctrine, and from where does this derive its authority ? And also in what particular way is the practice viewed which might be different from the view of its practitioners ? Biblically, we do know that God hears and answers the prayers of the departed - He answers Rachel with reassurance (Jeremiah). Then also, how we understand the verses (above) from Paul, can locate or not depending on understanding, this practice.

Not at all...be as picky as you like...I think this is also where some of Atwoods objections lie...I mention 'sound doctrine' on the basis and the context of these Scriptures which I thought most people would automatically understand:

Titus 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

1 Tim 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2 Tim 4: 1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

I realise that I come from a tradition that has always despised the idea of praying/petitioning any one other than G-d...and I have always believed this because it is what I was taught, and is what I find in Scripture...so now I am checking things out for myself.

I still don't find the couple of Scriptures you use very convincing on this issue...and I am really open to being persuaded by Scripture...I have built my whole life around Torah and New Covenant teachings....you could say I always welcome being persuaded by Scripture and the input of the Holy Spirit. (by that I mean the Holy Spirit adding weight to the words I read and convicting me, or encouraging or exhorting etc)
​

It is like trying to fit a very large, difficult jig-saw together and being unsure if all the pieces are actually on the table....then trying to force some pieces into places where they just won't fit.
​

Maybe you're forcing the pieces into the wrong place - try another area of the puzzle Ie, looking at things somewhat differently. Or moreso, looking at things not as a puzzle, but trying to get the gist of the whole before investigating the parts, as none are actually pieces 'on their own' but in a context.

Yes you're right Thekla, that is why I am trying to re-think many things, and seriously trying to understand where some of you dear brethren are coming from....without trying to pick up or make an issue out of many less important things...I am just trying to stick with a few core issues that I personally find very difficult to address, and at the same time find as much as I can about Believers in the first few centuries after Messiah.

​

"I have always hated doing jig-saws...but this is a different type.''
​

God bless your efforts +

That's very kind of you...G-d give you wisdom and patience.
​

 

[Fotina]

Yes you're right Thekla, that is why I am trying to re-think many things, and seriously trying to understand where some of you dear brethren are coming from....without trying to pick up or make an issue out of many less important things...I am just trying to stick with a few core issues that I personally find very difficult to address, and at the same time find as much as I can about Believers in the first few centuries after Messiah.​

Father Stephen Freeman's blog has some great explanations.

The Communion of Saints in Prayer

The Church never teaches a doctrine or dogma simply for the sake of teaching. Such proclamations are always about the truth as revealed to us in Christ – particularly as it relates to our salvation. The intercession of the saints is one such dogma. For it safeguards the revealed teaching concerning what it means to be a human created in the image of God and the very nature of our salvation. Human beings are created such that we are meant to share and live a common life – the life of God. The Communion of Saints is simply a dogmatic expression of that reality – a verbal icon of the truth of our being.

So Great A Cloud of Witnesses

There is a commonplace expression in Western theology of the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant – making a two-storey distinction between our lives here and the saints’ lives elsewhere. However, the teaching of the Church as found in her Creeds, clearly states that the Church is “One.” “Christ is not divided,” St. Paul taught. Thus the “cloud of witnesses” that surround us, not only cheer for us, but participate in our struggle. They are not made perfect or complete apart from us, but we are not made perfect apart from them. The perfection we have in Christ is one perfection – Christ Himself, the “author and finisher” of our faith.

You Never Pray Alone


Prayer is the offering of our common life before God. Whether or not we ourselves enter into this common prayer, the prayer remains. In the Tradition we begin our prayers: “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” What follows is thus not our own individual existence but the voice of our common life given in Christ Jesus through the Spirit to the glory of God the Father.
In the matrix of humanity conceived as individual – prayer – at best – is conversation. It obviously does not inform God of what He does not know – nor does it convince Him to do what He does not will to do. As such, prayer is reduced to the sound of our own ego.
There are times when such a sound is all that we can manage – indeed there are times when we cannot manage even a sound. Such times are all the more reason to become increasingly familiar with the ceaseless prayer of the Son to the Father through the Spirit. It is also reason to become familiar with the voice of the whole Church (in heaven and on earth) as it prays in union with Christ.
The anxieties of those who refuse to understand the communion of saints, and the prayer which ascends ceaselessly from the Church, is, I think, largely born of an individualism – the hallmark of most forms of modern Christianity. Christ alone saves us (apart from Him we can do nothing), and yet it pleases Him to share His life with us (it is our true existence). There is not a life of Christ that is not also a saving life. Salvation is part of our common life, even though it be solely the work of Christ.
Many are scandalized when they first visit and Orthodox Church and hear the prayer, “Most Holy Theotokos, save us!” What they think they are hearing is Mary put in the place of Christ. In the Tradition there is no such thought. The prayer is a recognition of the one salvation in Christ of which the Mother of God is intimately a part.
The shift from individualistic thought to the understanding of life as communion is perhaps among the most difficult undertakings in the modern world. It runs counter to modern culture and asks us to enter a world that can seem quite foreign. But this strange world is nothing other than the Kingdom of God – life in Christ – communion in the life of Christ and the life of one another. May God hurry the day of our transformation!

Prayer and Communion

Participation in the life of God (communion) is the heart of intercessory prayer.

But [Christ], because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them (Hebrews 7:24-25).
​

Christ’s “intercession for us” should not be understood as an eternal torrent of words; intercession is Christ’s union with us who have now been united to Him and thus united to His eternal communion with the Father.
This same understanding of prayer is at the heart of the intercession of the saints. Much confusion about the intercession of the saints has been wrought by poor images of prayer. We have reduced prayer to talk and intercession to talk to God about someone else. It is in this imagery that the Protestant question comes forward: “Why do we need someone else to speak to God for us? Isn’t Christ’s prayer enough?”
Of course, if prayer is just talk, then surely Christ’s words would be sufficient. But this oversimplification of prayer fails to do justice to Christ’s own prayer (as well as that of the saints). The intercession of the saints is their communion and participation in the life of Christ. By His life they live and the very character of that life is a communion with God. Rightly understood – that communion is prayer itself. When we express our own communion with the saints through asking their prayers we are giving verbal expression to what is already an ontological reality. As we are in communion with Christ so we are in communion with the saints. The Church cannot be other than the Church.
There may be those who reject the “intercession of the saints” (particularly as caricatured by inadequate understandings of prayer), but if they are truly in the communion of the Church then the intercession of the saints is inherently part of that communion. There is no Church that is not also the communion of the saints.
Our salvation is participation in the life of Christ. It is our healing, our forgiveness, our resurrection and our peace. Prayer is the sound of salvation – even in a wordless state.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well bro the way I see it is that Jesus has presented His disciples with a lesson in the form of a parable...He is the only one who truly understands what is taking place, and the why, when, how and where. In this example any jurisdiction Abraham has is purely confined to the realm of Hades at that time...there is no sense that he has any authority outside what is presented in the parable...but he would be a dominant figure in that pre-heavenly domain..even in his shadowy pre-resurrection form.

Also, if this really was representative of our authority to petition those faithful Believers who have gone on before...you would expect to see it in operation throughout Scripture, certainly in the New Covenant teachings, or within Apostolic teaching.

That is why I am deeply curious as to its genesis, and how it emerged and became a tangible doctrine believed and practiced by many, and from where the authority arose that bound this as truth in Heaven...who breathed life into it and can I trust them.

well, for one, just because it's a parable does not mean that it cannot be taken literally. yes, Abraham was in Hades, but he was in the area for the righteous and not the unrepentant (this was a pre Christian Jewish belief). if you read Daniel and Maccabees in the Septuigent, in both cases long dead prophets help both Daniel (Habbakuk) and Judas Maccabeus (Jeremiah). so this is in Scripture. plus, in the NT, in St Peter's epistle, he states that after he puts off this tent (his body ie his death), he will continue to work for the Church.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I'm so glad Fotina brought up Fr. Stephen Freeman's "One Storey Universe"! That is actually an excellent series that I think would help you with these very issues you are dealing with, and understanding them through the lens of Orthodox Christianity.

Here is a link to the pdf for easy reading, or printing:

Christianity in a One-Storey Universe – PDF « Glory to God for All Things

I hope this is helpful for you!

Mary

 

[Dorothea]

Father Stephen Freeman's blog has some great explanations.

The Communion of Saints in Prayer

The Church never teaches a doctrine or dogma simply for the sake of teaching. Such proclamations are always about the truth as revealed to us in Christ – particularly as it relates to our salvation. The intercession of the saints is one such dogma. For it safeguards the revealed teaching concerning what it means to be a human created in the image of God and the very nature of our salvation. Human beings are created such that we are meant to share and live a common life – the life of God. The Communion of Saints is simply a dogmatic expression of that reality – a verbal icon of the truth of our being.

So Great A Cloud of Witnesses

There is a commonplace expression in Western theology of the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant – making a two-storey distinction between our lives here and the saints’ lives elsewhere. However, the teaching of the Church as found in her Creeds, clearly states that the Church is “One.” “Christ is not divided,” St. Paul taught. Thus the “cloud of witnesses” that surround us, not only cheer for us, but participate in our struggle. They are not made perfect or complete apart from us, but we are not made perfect apart from them. The perfection we have in Christ is one perfection – Christ Himself, the “author and finisher” of our faith.

You Never Pray Alone


Prayer is the offering of our common life before God. Whether or not we ourselves enter into this common prayer, the prayer remains. In the Tradition we begin our prayers: “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” What follows is thus not our own individual existence but the voice of our common life given in Christ Jesus through the Spirit to the glory of God the Father.
In the matrix of humanity conceived as individual – prayer – at best – is conversation. It obviously does not inform God of what He does not know – nor does it convince Him to do what He does not will to do. As such, prayer is reduced to the sound of our own ego.
There are times when such a sound is all that we can manage – indeed there are times when we cannot manage even a sound. Such times are all the more reason to become increasingly familiar with the ceaseless prayer of the Son to the Father through the Spirit. It is also reason to become familiar with the voice of the whole Church (in heaven and on earth) as it prays in union with Christ.
The anxieties of those who refuse to understand the communion of saints, and the prayer which ascends ceaselessly from the Church, is, I think, largely born of an individualism – the hallmark of most forms of modern Christianity. Christ alone saves us (apart from Him we can do nothing), and yet it pleases Him to share His life with us (it is our true existence). There is not a life of Christ that is not also a saving life. Salvation is part of our common life, even though it be solely the work of Christ.
Many are scandalized when they first visit and Orthodox Church and hear the prayer, “Most Holy Theotokos, save us!” What they think they are hearing is Mary put in the place of Christ. In the Tradition there is no such thought. The prayer is a recognition of the one salvation in Christ of which the Mother of God is intimately a part.
The shift from individualistic thought to the understanding of life as communion is perhaps among the most difficult undertakings in the modern world. It runs counter to modern culture and asks us to enter a world that can seem quite foreign. But this strange world is nothing other than the Kingdom of God – life in Christ – communion in the life of Christ and the life of one another. May God hurry the day of our transformation!

Prayer and Communion

Participation in the life of God (communion) is the heart of intercessory prayer.

But [Christ], because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them (Hebrews 7:24-25).
​

Christ’s “intercession for us” should not be understood as an eternal torrent of words; intercession is Christ’s union with us who have now been united to Him and thus united to His eternal communion with the Father.
This same understanding of prayer is at the heart of the intercession of the saints. Much confusion about the intercession of the saints has been wrought by poor images of prayer. We have reduced prayer to talk and intercession to talk to God about someone else. It is in this imagery that the Protestant question comes forward: “Why do we need someone else to speak to God for us? Isn’t Christ’s prayer enough?”
Of course, if prayer is just talk, then surely Christ’s words would be sufficient. But this oversimplification of prayer fails to do justice to Christ’s own prayer (as well as that of the saints). The intercession of the saints is their communion and participation in the life of Christ. By His life they live and the very character of that life is a communion with God. Rightly understood – that communion is prayer itself. When we express our own communion with the saints through asking their prayers we are giving verbal expression to what is already an ontological reality. As we are in communion with Christ so we are in communion with the saints. The Church cannot be other than the Church.
There may be those who reject the “intercession of the saints” (particularly as caricatured by inadequate understandings of prayer), but if they are truly in the communion of the Church then the intercession of the saints is inherently part of that communion. There is no Church that is not also the communion of the saints.
Our salvation is participation in the life of Christ. It is our healing, our forgiveness, our resurrection and our peace. Prayer is the sound of salvation – even in a wordless state.

This is Excellent! Thank you for sharing this, Fotina. It's brought me great spiritual nourishment.

 

[Zeek]

well, for one, just because it's a parable does not mean that it cannot be taken literally. yes, Abraham was in Hades, but he was in the area for the righteous and not the unrepentant (this was a pre Christian Jewish belief). if you read Daniel and Maccabees in the Septuigent, in both cases long dead prophets help both Daniel (Habbakuk) and Judas Maccabeus (Jeremiah). so this is in Scripture. plus, in the NT, in St Peter's epistle, he states that after he puts off this tent (his body ie his death), he will continue to work for the Church.

I think you misunderstand me a little Matt.

I believe the parable described reality...but only Jesus understood exactly how it all panned out, as no one has come back and given us insight into what actually was occuring...we just get snippets. He was speaking from His experience..and presumably those righteous people in Abrahams bosom knew Him in their disembodied state, in His Pre-incarnate state, as IMO His presence would surely be known there.

I believe in the Judea-Christian concept as described/touched upon in the Bible...and that this afterlife was a waiting place that was divided into two sections, one for sheep and one for goats as it were...waiting for the promise, and looking towards Messiah's victory over death.

I think this must be the reference in Peter you are referring to:

1Peter 1:12Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

Could you please show me the point you are trying to make from this as I can't see it...maybe it is another Scripture.....also it would be helpful to me if you could give the other references in Maccabees and Daniel so that I can read them for myself.

Many thanks. Zazal

 

[Zeek]

Father Stephen Freeman's blog has some great explanations.

The Communion of Saints in Prayer

.

Thanks Fotina....will read through as soon as I can.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

Maccabees I can help with, having embroidered the verse reference into the lining of a Bible cover that I embroidered for my godfather years ago, whose Christian name is Jeremiah. 2nd Maccabees 15 can be found here in Greek, English and Hebrew: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: 2 Maccabees 15 , but the translation is a bit archaic so I've typed out the Orthodox Study Bible translation of what I want too:

In his utter vanity and arrogance, Nicanor decided to put up a public monument of victory over Judas and his army. But Macabeus never ceased to trust the Lord and fully hope that He would help him. So he encouraged his men to have no fear of any attack from the Gentiles, but to bear in mind how help had come to them from heaven in times past. Now they should anticipate the victory the Almighty would give to them. He also exhorted them out of the law and the prophets, calling to mind the battles they had won, making them more eager to fight. Then after he revived their courage, he gave his commands and at the same time emphasized the Gentiles' faithlessness and ther failure to keep their oaths. So he issued each of them armor - not so much of the surety of shields and spears as with the encouragement of courageous speech. Then he inspired them all by telling about a dream, a kind of vision, worthy of believing.

The vision he was was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a true gentleman of modest and noble manner, one well-spoken and from childhood formed in all that pertains to virtue, was praying with hands outstretched for the whole nation of the Jews. Then in the same manner another man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and glory, and having about him a certain astonishing and majestic preeminence. Onias then spoke, saying, "This is Jeremiah, the prophet of God, a man who loves his brothers and prays fervently for the people and the holy city." Stretching forth his right hand, Jeremiah gave a sword of gold to Judas, and as he presented it to him, he addressed him as follows: "Take this sacred sword, a gift from God, by which you will strike down your enemies."
~ 2 Macc 15:6-16

(emphasis mine)

Judas Maccabeaus is blessed by God, and teaches his men who he is about to lead into battle about the help from God, using the Law and the Prophets (i.e., teaching from Scripture) and then as well as the Scripture tells of the vision "worth believing" i.e. not just a dream or something made up.

What's important to note is that at this point Onias is dead, he was spoken of in chapter 3 (and worked a miracle) and is spoken of as righteous but his successor (who was not godly) is named in chapter 4. So he comes to Judas, who is seeking help from Heaven, as God's messenger and a herald for the greater Saint, the Prophet Jeremiah. If you read stories of Saints interceding for or helping holy people, this is quite a common pattern. The Prophet Jeremiah gives Judas the sword, a gift from God. The gifts that the Saints can give are not from themselves, but from God (as are all gifts!)

So what we can see here, is that the Prophet Jeremiah is ceaselessly praying for the Jews and Jerusalem, so he is aware of what's going on and he's praying, which fits with the vision of the Saints crying out before the Throne in Revelation. More importantly, he has not only found an answer to his prayer from God, but God has given him something to give to Judas to help him. So the Saints are God's servants in eternity, and they both ask his help for others and perform the tasks he gives.

Here's another story - this one isn't Scripture, it's more recent than that, only a few decades ago, but you can see some similar elements, and it's about today (the 27th of July)'s saint, St Panteleimon, who on earth was a doctor who gave his services for free to the poor and was tortured and martyred for Christ.

In the Kalyva of St. John Chrysostom, which belongs to the Koutloumousiou Monastery’s Skete of St. Panteleimon, Monk Daniel is still alive and struggling in asceticism. As he himself assures us, and as we have also learned from other fathers, he has been sick for over twenty years: his head, back, kidneys, heart, feet, and sometimes his whole body, hurt. He has been to many doctors and has undergone many examinations, X-rays, and radiography, all with the same outcome.

The doctors cannot find any bodily disorder; nevertheless, the brother continues to suffer from an inexplicable illness, with which doctors and science are unable to help him.

A few years ago, on July 27, during the Vigil for the Feast of St. Panteleimon, Brother Daniel, with great faith and tears in his eyes, besought St. Panteleimon with these words:

“O Saint of God and Patron of our Skete, you who are a doctor and who, for the love of Christ, were martyred and shed your blood, beseech Christ our Master to grant me my health, so that I, too, will be able to glorify His Name and chant during Vigils in good health.”

Having said this, from his pain and exhaustion, Monk Daniel fell into a light sleep and saw St. Panteleimon in a vision kneeling before the throne of God and asking for the brother’s health to be restored.

Monk Daniel heard Christ the Master say to St. Panteleimon:

“My brother, Great Martyr Panteleimon, are you perhaps more compassionate than I? Or do you have greater love for the people than I do? I know that you shed your blood for My sake, but did I not also shed My Blood, and continue to shed it every day, for the salvation of men’s souls? Know that it is My will, and it is often to one’s advantage, that one’s body be sick, that his soul might be saved. This is how I desire many people to be saved.”

When Brother Daniel heard these words, he woke up and glorified the Name of God, also thanking St. Panteleimon for his efforts and intercession. And immediately, as he himself told us, a burden was lifted from him and he was inwardly assured that he must bear his cross and his illness with patience and thanksgiving.

Source: Monk Andrew the Hagiorite, Gerontikon of the Holy Mountain [in Greek] (Athens: 1979), pp. 287-288.

There are several speeches here. The first is the request to St Panteleimon from Fr Daniel:
"O Saint of God and Patron of our Skete, you who are a doctor and who, for the love of Christ, were martyred and shed your blood, beseech Christ our Master to grant me my health, so that I, too, will be able to glorify His Name and chant during Vigils in good health.”
Self explanatory enough. Any request for help to a Saint is, if stated explicitly or not, a request for them to beseech Christ, who may intervene Himself or send His Servants the Saints to do His work (as happened with the Prophet Jeremiah who came bearing the sword from God).

Then there's St Panteleimon's request to Christ, which we're not given, and Christ's response:
“My brother, Great Martyr Panteleimon, are you perhaps more compassionate than I? Or do you have greater love for the people than I do? I know that you shed your blood for My sake, but did I not also shed My Blood, and continue to shed it every day, for the salvation of men’s souls? Know that it is My will, and it is often to one’s advantage, that one’s body be sick, that his soul might be saved. This is how I desire many people to be saved.”
So the Saints petition Christ, who responds to them just as He would to us (although they see Him face to face).

The whole thing is a vision and given to Fr Daniel by God to comfort him and strengthen him in his struggle, and now passed on to us for comfort and encouragement (I am in a similar situation to Fr Daniel, although not the ascetic despite it all that he was!)

Daniel & Habbakuk is different, in that they were both physically alive, but Habbakuk was transported from 'his own place' (and time, 100 years before) to give Daniel, in the lion's den, food and comfort. Here's a Jewish site describing it: The Prophet Habakkuk - Haftorah Personalities
And here's the Scripture itself:
Daniel 14 DRA - And Daniel was the king's guest, and - Bible Gateway
A quote:

28 And they came to the king, and said: Deliver us Daniel, or else we will destroy thee and thy house.
29 And the king saw that they pressed upon him violently: and being constrained by necessity he delivered Daniel to them.
30 And they cast him into the den of lions, and he was there six days.
31 And in the den there were seven lions, and they had given to them two carcasses every day, and two sheep: but then they were not given unto them, that they might devour Daniel.
32 Now there was in Judea a prophet called Habacuc, and he had boiled pottage, and had broken bread in a bowl: and was going into the field, to carry it to the reapers.
33 And the angel of the Lord said to Habacuc: Carry the dinner which thou hast into Babylon to Daniel, who is in the lions' den.
34 And Habacuc said: Lord, I never saw Babylon, nor do I know the den.
35 And the angel of the Lord took him by the top of his head, and carried him by the hair of his head, and set him in Babylon over the den in the force of his spirit.
36 And Habacuc cried, saying: O Daniel, thou servant of God, take the dinner that God hath sent thee.
37 And Daniel said: Thou hast remembered me, O God, and thou hast not forsaken them that love thee.
38 And Daniel arose and ate. And the angel of the Lord presently set Habacuc again in his own place.
39 And upon the seventh day the king came to bewail Daniel: and he came to the den, and looked in, and behold Daniel was sitting in the midst of the lions.
~ Daniel 14:28-39

 

[ArmyMatt]

thanks Kyriaki, but Habbakuk died 100 years prior to Daniel according to the OSB.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

Oh, that's true, my mistake. In which case it's time & space travel? It doesn't have the same tone as when Saints come from Heaven to minister to those currently alive in the body. Either way, it isn't the same thing.

 

[Zeek]

Thanks for those things....I am not very familiar with what have always been known to me as extra-biblical writings...when I have read some things, I find it hard to believe they are inspired in the same way as Scripture...do all Orthodox use them in their devotions and study and hold them in the same regard as the rest of Scripture?

I would still like to hear about the quote in Peter that Matt mentioned...I feel on more solid ground using the Scriptures I am traditionally familiar with...but I will bear the other things in mind.

 

[Dorothea]

All those supposed books - the 10 books that the Protestant Bibles don't have are valid Scriptures and part of the Bible. And I personally like The Wisdom of Sirach and Tobit the best out of all the OT.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks for those things....I am not very familiar with what have always been known to me as extra-biblical writings...when I have read some things, I find it hard to believe they are inspired in the same way as Scripture...do all Orthodox use them in their devotions and study and hold them in the same regard as the rest of Scripture?

I would still like to hear about the quote in Peter that Matt mentioned...I feel on more solid ground using the Scriptures I am traditionally familiar with...but I will bear the other things in mind.

well, that is the OT that Christ used/read. so those books are as valid as the others. it was Martin Luther who made a mistake when translating the Bible into German. he thought that that Mazoratic (spelling?) was the more accurate, when it was the Greek OT that was older.

 

[Knee V]

Thanks for those things....I am not very familiar with what have always been known to me as extra-biblical writings...when I have read some things, I find it hard to believe they are inspired in the same way as Scripture...do all Orthodox use them in their devotions and study and hold them in the same regard as the rest of Scripture?

I would still like to hear about the quote in Peter that Matt mentioned...I feel on more solid ground using the Scriptures I am traditionally familiar with...but I will bear the other things in mind.

1 Peter 1:12-15 (NKJV)
For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established In the present truth. Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Look at the last sentence (vs 15). After he has died he will continue to ensure that they are reminded of the things he mentioned in the previous paragraphs.

 

[Zeek]

All those supposed books - the 10 books that the Protestant Bibles don't have are valid Scriptures and part of the Bible. And I personally like The Wisdom of Sirach and Tobit the best out of all the OT.

Lol Dorothea....by what authority are they considered valid, and are they validated by the same rules and criteria that validated the other books of the Bible? I have always thought that they were not included because they were not part of accepted Jewish Scripture, and that they contain historical inaccuracies and mythical stories, but I have never looked into it. I am not saying they are not useful...but I had assumed they were a bit like the Talmud, and subject to the authority of accepted Scripture?

 

[Zeek]

1 Peter 1:12-15 (NKJV)
For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established In the present truth. Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Look at the last sentence (vs 15). After he has died he will continue to ensure that they are reminded of the things he mentioned in the previous paragraphs.

Hey Knee....Do you honestly think that is a correct understanding of the passage, and have you compared it to many other translations...as what I read gives no such implication...help me here.

 

[Thekla]

Yes I have been through this a number of times in the past, and with you, but it is good to be reminded. I don't have any problem honouring great men and women of G-d...celebrating a feast day dedicated to them...but I do have a problem with some of the prayers, sung and spoken on these days...because honestly they go too far in my understanding.

Sorry for the delay - I'm only here intermittently between tasks (busy Summer !).

Again, I would appeal to context; the use and understanding of these hymns/prayers occurs within a context. A context of Liturgy, living of the faith, and mode of expression. Not unlike a situation where a literal translation from a language with a very different structure, syntax, etc. may result in misunderstanding - so also without a "sense" of the whole, these parts decontextualized from a living whole will necessarily evoke a different understanding from the 'outside'.



I remeber this well, and I still find it very tenuous.

It is not my own claim, and I do not pretend to know better than those within Judaism who make the claim. Just for reference - this is attested by the Rabbinical board tasked with the translation of the Tanach (Stone edition, Artscroll publ., English/Hebrew).



Hmmm...this is an interesting way of explaining things, I hadn't looked at it quite this way before...I will bear this in mind and give it further thought, and pursue it through Scripture.

There are other passages too - taken as a whole with an undergirding of a living faith in the truly "now" victory of Christ (ie., not bound to our bodily sense of time), and an understanding of Christ with/in us - we are not then sundered from any in/with Him. Ie, we cannot be divided from those with/in Christ unless we ourselves are divided from Him.

​

Not at all...be as picky as you like...I think this is also where some of Atwoods objections lie...I mention 'sound doctrine' on the basis and the context of these Scriptures which I thought most people would automatically understand:

These Scriptures do not preclude, though, the understanding of communion of the Saints found in the EO. In fact, there can be unsound doctrine claiming Scriptural basis. Nor, to be accurate, do the passages claim all sound doctrine is explicitly iterated in Scripture. This is not to say there are doctrines which are sound that openly do not accord with SCripture, but that Scripture is not a list of doctrines per se.

But further, the EO does not understand any of its teachings to be in disagreement with Scripture (which is likely not saying much, as likely all Churches think this of their own teachings).

Titus 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

1 Tim 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2 Tim 4: 1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Sorry - I jumped the passages in my response - see above.

I realise that I come from a tradition that has always despised the idea of praying/petitioning any one other than G-d...and I have always believed this because it is what I was taught, and is what I find in Scripture...so now I am checking things out for myself.

Not to assume, but I think possibly most if not all Christian traditions at least do not despise petitioning other Christians for their prayers to God. So it might be that the difference is not praying/petitioning Christians for their prayers, but instead whether or not the Christians we pray/petition for their prayers are "visible" to us.

And in my understanding, life/living is to become prayer; Mary's petitions on your behalf are already a given as are those of Paul, Moses, etc. as they have all in their service to God lived as prayer. And any service to God is really a benefit for all mankind; the two greatest commandments are a living that, in Christ, take on eternal dimensions.

I still don't find the couple of Scriptures you use very convincing on this issue...and I am really open to being persuaded by Scripture...I have built my whole life around Torah and New Covenant teachings....you could say I always welcome being persuaded by Scripture and the input of the Holy Spirit. (by that I mean the Holy Spirit adding weight to the words I read and convicting me, or encouraging or exhorting etc)

That's okay - I'm not interested in convincing/convicting anyone of anything. I don't have that kind of authority, so I prefer to just "point things out". That's more in keeping with my "personality" anyway.

​

Yes you're right Thekla, that is why I am trying to re-think many things, and seriously trying to understand where some of you dear brethren are coming from....without trying to pick up or make an issue out of many less important things...I am just trying to stick with a few core issues that I personally find very difficult to address, and at the same time find as much as I can about Believers in the first few centuries after Messiah.
​

Imo, as long as you keep Christ at the center, the rest can flow from there. And it can be hard to see things from a different 'perspective', but as an "oldish" person, I can say it can be done. Not always for a result of agreement, but to really open the heart to another whether or not one desires to accept the position.
​

That's very kind of you...G-d give you wisdom and patience.

Thank-you, Zazal

in all things, glory to Jesus Christ +