Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[abacabb3]

God heals people today without them firstly being annointed with oil.
If God heals in such circumstances, dont be mad at the idea

We cannot be mad at Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox for wanting to continue the model the Apostles employed.

 

[abacabb3]

Absolutely, all Christians should be baptised in water. I cannot understand why anyone wouldnt. The bible is clear. Believers are to be baptised

And the Bible is clear that believers are to be anointed, and confess, and that their marriages are of metaphysical importance...etcetera. Just what exactly do you disagree with the seven sacraments? If the Apostles did them, aren't we supposed to do what they did? If you say we can get the same results without following their example, then wouldn't that be disobedience?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Taken to an extreme, some might understand your words to mean that you think we should have faith in Christ, and then go out and sin all we might like.

I know that's not what you mean.

But I've also told you what we mean, and don't mean. Or I've tried to.

Taken to an extreme, some might understand your words to mean that you think we should have faith in Christ, and then go out and sin all we might like.

I know that's not what you mean.

But I've also told you what we mean, and don't mean. Or I've tried to.

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace( righteousness of faith I Christ)

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Dont you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey

Rom6:14-16

Grace is impossible for the natural mind to fathom.
In its truest sense, the christian must be WILLING to surrender their life to Christ

As a christian counsellor said to me:

Many go to church just seeking comfort In a form of religion, they never understand born again Christianity.
Having a righteousness apart from law, is and can only be for those who have, from their heart made a firm commitment to Christ.

If some only go to church for fear of hell I they do not, a righteousness apart from law is not for them.

If some just want to to turn up at church once a week and go through the motions, a righteousness apart from law is not for them.

I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANY DENOMINATION but individuals

 

[stuart lawrence]

And the Bible is clear that believers are to be anointed, and confess, and that their marriages are of metaphysical importance...etcetera. Just what exactly do you disagree with the seven sacraments? If the Apostles did them, aren't we supposed to do what they did? If you say we can get the same results without following their example, then wouldn't that be disobedience?

I have already told you. I agree with water baptism, telling God we are sorry when we err, getting married if you don't want to be celebate, taking communion.

So what Is your problem?

 

[abacabb3]

I don't have a problem. The issue is you are picking and choosing what to follow. James 5 explicitly says we confess sins and seek anointing for sickness from the Presbyters. Your response so far has been, "We don;t need to do those things, God can forgive sins and heal sickness at a whim."

Of course He can. But what is your justification of ignoring what James, the inspired Apostle, commanded?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't have a problem. The issue is you are picking and choosing what to follow. James 5 explicitly says we confess sins and seek anointing for sickness from the Presbyters. Your response so far has been, "We don;t need to do those things, God can forgive sins and heal sickness at a whim."

Of course He can. But what is your justification of ignoring what James, the inspired Apostle, commanded?

Why would I believe you MUST anoint someone with oil for healing when I KNOW healings take place without this happening?

I explained earlier.
An evangelist surrendered their life to Christ. They forsook marriage, children to fully concentrate their life to what God wanted from them.
Tremendous, medically verified miracles of healing too place I their services. NO anointing with oil was firstly given.
So what was the key to the huge amount of miracles That took place?
The evangelist once said:
Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything.

The above is what matters most.

I believe in your private prayer Time you can kneel before God and tell him you are sorry for when you err. Do you not agree?

You can also tell others if you want to when you err.

Christianity is not simply about following the letter rigidly. It is about the heart

 

[abacabb3]

Why would I believe you MUST anoint someone with oil for healing when I KNOW healings take place without this happening?

...because the Bible explicitly says so? Isn't that good enough?

Why pray, doesnt God do what He wants anyway?

 

[stuart lawrence]

...because the Bible explicitly says so? Isn't that good enough?

Why pray, doesnt God do what He wants anyway?

You ignored the point made.
Many get healed without firstly being anointed with oil.
And many do get anointed with oil but are not healed.
If God heals without firstly being anointed with oil, should we question him?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did Christ err by healing people without firstly anointing them with oil?

 

[stuart lawrence]

BTW

I have NOT said it is wrong to anoint with oil before a person seeks healing, only, in the vast majority of cases it I not necessary to receive healing

 

[abacabb3]

You ignored the point made.
Many get healed without firstly being anointed with oil.
And many do get anointed with oil but are not healed.
If God heals without firstly being anointed with oil, should we question him?

It's not about questioning. If God tells me to jump on one foot for no reason, I'll do it. I dont need a good reason. Why do you need a good reason to follow the explicit admonishment of the Apostle James? I don't care if it can work other ways, we should still be doing what he said.

 

[stuart lawrence]

It's not about questioning. If God tells me to jump on one foot for no reason, I'll do it. I dont need a good reason. Why do you need a good reason to follow the explicit admonishment of the Apostle James? I don't care if it can work other ways, we should still be doing what he said.

If only you were as resolute in accepting what the bible says is your righteousness before God

 

[stuart lawrence]

A Jewish Christian said. The Quran is written to be followed rigidly according to the letter. The bible is not written that way

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Pharisees were so fixated on some of the literal letter, they never understood the heart of the message the letter contained, and many of them didn't even know God

 

[abacabb3]

If only you were as resolute in accepting what the bible says is your righteousness before God

Well, that's not a good answer. Let's say I am a hypocrite and going to hell. What is your account before God in advocating against what He inspired His Apostle to command us to do?

 

[abacabb3]

The Pharisees were so fixated on some of the literal letter, they never understood the heart of the message the letter contained, and many of them didn't even know God

So again, only you have the correct interpretation and everyone in church history, following what the Bible literally said, is wrong. Please think about what you are saying, either you are really brilliant or you need to exercise more humility.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, that's not a good answer. Let's say I am a hypocrite and going to hell. What is your account before God in advocating against what He inspired His Apostle to command us to do?

I will just keep repeating, no I will ask you this instead.
Does your priest anoint with oil?

Does he see as many tremendous healings as that evangelist saw in their church?
If not, why not?

 

[stuart lawrence]

So again, only you have the correct interpretation and everyone in church history, following what the Bible literally said, is wrong. Please think about what you are saying, either you are really brilliant or you need to exercise more humility.

A christian knows no spiritual truth In or of themself. The academic mind, no matter how brilliant is useless to lead into spiritual truth.
Only one can lead you into such truth, and you have to rely on him, in your heart to do so.

Many years ago, I stood on what my then, particular denomination taught. I believed, as they did they were the only true first century church.
I dont believe that anymore, the bible comes first.
And the christian is called into the freedom of following after the Holy Spirit, not the written code

 

[stuart lawrence]

In first century Christianity, the power of the Holy Spirit was mightily seen. Many great miracles happened. In the second century this was less so, in the third century much less still. At the same time, though the gifts of the spirit, and tongues were widespread in the first century church, by the second century Thi was much less. By the third century they had all but dried up.
Along had come the scholar and theologian, pouring over the writings of the Apostles, endlessly searching for new doctrines to set in stone in Christianity
First century Christianity became something to look back on, a golden era that had gone, never to be repeated again.
Yet
God had not changed.
Neither had the Holy Spirit, who is Gods power on earth.
The true message had not changed either.
But something had changed, sadly

 

[~Anastasia~]

In its truest sense, the christian must be WILLING to surrender their life to Christ

In any sense at all, if one is a Christian, they must surrender their lives to Christ.

But yes, I agree.

As a christian counsellor said to me:

Many go to church just seeking comfort In a form of religion, they never understand born again Christianity.

Having a righteousness apart from law, is and can only be for those who have, from their heart made a firm commitment to Christ.

If some only go to church for fear of hell I they do not, a righteousness apart from law is not for them.

If some just want to to turn up at church once a week and go through the motions, a righteousness apart from law is not for them.

I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANY DENOMINATION but individuals

What individuals?

And how do you know that an individual doesn't understand Christianity? How do you know they have not made a commitment in their heart to Christ? How do you know they are just going through the motions?


Again, I almost - almost - have to smile at this. I was much more "comfortable" going to my contemporary worship services, enjoying the music, getting a motivational sermon, sitting down while listening, letting the pastor do all the "work", then coming home to a faith that, while I loved God, didn't demand a whole lot from me in terms of any discipline.

Some people think I go to hours-long services, stand on my feet, sing and pray most of the service, fast, pray, and apply myself as diligently as I'm able, seek to be ever mindful of Christ and take every thought captive to Him, pray without ceasing ... because I'm seeking to be "comfortable"? Just a funny little irony.