Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I'm not trying to prove anything about myself to anyone. What would that accomplish? If anything, that could be a way of feeding pride.

But it proves something TO me ... going to Church and receiving the Sacraments. I wouldn't say my faith is "built around" that though. My faith is in Christ. But the Church is part of how I live that faith, and an important part.

That's commanded in Scripture too, by the way ...

But which church?

Scripture doesn't say we receive grace through sacraments but faith.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Have you ever received Sacraments?

I have been baptised In water and obviously partaken of communion.

 

[stuart lawrence]

But I haven't done the above in order to receive grace, but because I had already received it

 

[~Anastasia~]

But which church?

Scripture doesn't say we receive grace through sacraments but faith.

Well, I've shown you that Scripture mentions the Sacraments, and mentions instances of God's grace coming through them.

Indeed ... which church? Many of them offer "ordinances" but are careful to state that nothing happens, and don't expect any grace to accompany them. Which seems kind of strange to me - if you can expect grace to come as a result of prayer, why NOT communion? But I guess they are wanting to set themselves apart from Catholicism, in many cases.

God CAN still grant grace in those cases, but if it's not believed, and no one is looking for it - essentially rejecting the idea - they may be shutting the door in His face, and He is likely to respect that and stay away.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I've shown you that Scripture mentions the Sacraments, and mentions instances of God's grace coming through them.

Indeed ... which church? Many of them offer "ordinances" but are careful to state that nothing happens, and don't expect any grace to accompany them. Which seems kind of strange to me - if you can expect grace to come as a result of prayer, why NOT communion? But I guess they are wanting to set themselves apart from Catholicism, in many cases.

God CAN still grant grace in those cases, but if it's not believed, and no one is looking for it - essentially rejecting the idea - they may be shutting the door in His face, and He is likely to respect that and stay away.

Please quote the NT where it states we receive grace through sacraments.
I PERMENANTLY have the grace of God with me, for the Holy Spirit dwells in me. I am a child of God through faith in Christ.
Maybe grace comes and goes from the lives of EO.

 

[FireDragon76]

In fact, a Christianity built around going to church once a week and participating of rite, ritual, ceremony and sacrements, is no proof you have done what is most important to God. Surrender your life to Christ from your heart.

I'm so glad that isn't the Lutheran message. Jesus, unlike my former experiences, is not a demanding taskmaster or bank robber who demands you hand over your life first. We would consider that bad preaching, a confusion of the order of salvation.

The sacraments are very important for me is a Lutheran. Even when the preaching is bad, the music is bad, I have a reason to go to church... to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and hear the words, "This is the true body of Christ given for the forgiveness of all your sins". And when I am troubled with doubts that I am a real Christian, like Luther I can say to myself "I am baptized".

Lutherans are not "decisional theology" types. We can preach the Gospel, even to people who haven't heard it, without having to engage in a hard sell. In fact I would say it's not a sell at all, more like proclamation. Just an example but yesterday I was responding here to someone who had problems spiritually, and everybody else intellectualized the problem, trying to sell him on God, and I realized the problem is that he just needed to hear the Good News for himself all over again. Because I honestly have the same problem. Every human being has that problem. There's not some separate preaching for the insiders or the outsiders in Lutheranism (and from what I remember of Orthodoxy, it was similar to that as well).

And people got healed in the services without firstly partaking of rites, rituals, ceremonies and sacraments.

Laying on of hands isn't a rite?

 

[abacabb3]

Please quote the NT where it states we receive grace through sacraments.
I PERMENANTLY have the grace of God with me, for the Holy Spirit dwells in me. I am a child of God through faith in Christ.
Maybe grace comes and goes from the lives of EO.

Anastasia quoted James 5 that says confession forgives sin.

1 John 1:7 says if we walk with Christ that His blood "cleanses" us (continuous present, not merely a past event.)

Christ says in John 6 that unless we eat His flesh and blood (that's present tense) we have no fellowship with Him.

So, participating in the life of the Church in its mysteries (i.e. sacraments) IS in the Scripture. I have an incomplete article I am writing on it-- Excuse the typos:

__

Depending on what church you go to, your church teaches there are two or, perhaps, seven sacraments. If you go to a Baptist church the word "sacrament" is avoided entirely in favor of another: ordinance.

An ordinance is something we do because Jesus Christ commanded us to do it.

A sacrament has a greater meaning. The word means "mystery." Calling an ordinance a mystery is a reference to the idea that something more than what we see is going on. In the following, I am going to make the argument from the Scriptures that there are two sacraments/mysteries ordained by Christ, and five more from the apostles.

1. Baptism

The ordinance: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19).

The mystery: "[A]ll of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" (Rom 6:3-4).

2. The Lord's Supper

The ordinance: "He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes" (1 Cor 11:24-26).

The mystery: "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56).

3. Chrismation/Confirmation

The ordinance: "For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:16-17; See also Acts 19:6).

The mystery: "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him" (1 John 2:27).

4. Marriage

The ordinance: "[E]ach man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband" (1 Cor 7:2).

The mystery: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church" (Eph 5:31-32).

5. Anointing the sick

The ordinance: "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:15).

6. Confession

The ordinance: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another" (James 5:16; specifically to the Elders in James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him" (James 5:15).

 

[abacabb3]

In fact I've seen Orthodox deny that there is grace outside the canonical boundaries of your communion. Some defend this notion vehemently.

Actually, this has thrust me to Orthodoxy. God has come to redeem a Church, not just individuals. The Bible nowhere talks about an invisible church held together on the realm of common beliefs. The Church Fathers took this for granted. Cyprian wrote, "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."

We must be really sure that Cyprian is wrong to not be part of the communion of the one, holy, apostolic and catholic Church.

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually, this has thrust me to Orthodoxy. God has come to redeem a Church, not just individuals. The Bible nowhere talks about an invisible church held together on the realm of common beliefs. The Church Fathers took this for granted. Cyprian wrote, "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."

As a Lutheran, I do not believe in an invisible Church, either, divorced from all concrete instantiation. There are certain things a church must do to be the Church - the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments. This is not actually totally unlike the Eucharistic ecclessiology of some Orthodox theologians.

And Cyprian and Augustine did not see totally eye to eye on whether there could be sacraments and grace outside the canonical boundaries of the Church. The Orthodox have predominantly taken the perspective of Cyprian, but that doesn't mean it was the correct one.

We must be really sure that Cyprian is wrong to not be part of the communion of the one, holy, apostolic and catholic Church.

Cyprian's theology potentially leads to a rigid ecclessiology. Even some Orthodox theologians have realized this is a romanticized image of the early church. In reality, especially in the west, Orthodox Christians did not have a hard cut off of communion even with those who had a heterodox faith. Arianism and semi-Arianism existed in a grey area for several centuries, with confusion as to who is in and out. Many had a charitable attitude towards fellow Christians.

 

[abacabb3]

Augustine believed that Donatists were outside of salvation, so I think he was with Cyprian...everyone was. No one said that Novatians, Montanists, and Donatists were saved. Even Tychonius, a Donatist, was excommunicated by the Donatists for speculating about the less rigid ecclesiology.

So of course all the fathers can be wrong...but I am not willing to take that chance.

 

[FireDragon76]

Augustine believed that Donatists were outside of salvation

Nop, quite the contrary. He was against the rigorists who wanted to re-baptize apostates and schismatics. Sort of what many Orthodox Christians do.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We have to remember that "outside the Church" meant something different when those words were first written than the situation Christianity finds itself in today.

I for one will not pass any judgement on the words on the Saints - that's far above me.

But at times in the past, those "outside the Church" were there precisely because they purposely rejected certain foundational truths of the Church.

Today, we have this incredible mish-mash, if nothing else, Rome rejected the proper councilliar nature of the Church established in Acts, and sought ultimate rule over all, which really is a very big problem. Then she went on to create novel doctrines and dogmas we must reject. But then she has begun to swing back to more moderate positions, on some of them. Meanwhile, some rightly rejected certain errors of Rome. But lacking the foundational connection with the rest of the Church, they went on to fix things as best they could. And everyone since then has been trying to do the same, but even MORE divorced from the historic foundation, so in some cases hitting upon Truth and in some cases making errors. If twenty different denominations believe twenty opposing things, they logically cannot all be right. At least 19 (and possibly all 20) logically must be wrong. But people are born, taught, and live their lives without ever encountering the foundational truths, or being able to even rightly evaluate them. Lord have mercy on us all (and thankfully He does).

Sorry, all that probably wasn't necessary. But that's different than looking at a group that purposely separated themselves from the Church because they chose to embrace a particular heresy.

Only God can judge this mess.

What was my point?

Oh yes - it can be completely misleading, perhaps, to try to apply what was written in the first few centuries, even long before the Great Schism, to the Christian landscape of today in exactly the same terms.

Only God alone can judge. And my great-grandmother, who I spent many days and hours alone with, lived as what I would regard today as a possible Saint (capital S) ... and she never heard of the Orthodox Church or knew anything about Church history. The grace of God permeated her life, and I don't believe He held that against her.

But, just the same, to one who DOES know these things, and has the capability to research, and understand, if they reject, well, God alone knows their reasons and heart, and degree of understanding, and that is why only He can judge.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm so glad that isn't the Lutheran message. Jesus, unlike my former experiences, is not a demanding taskmaster or bank robber who demands you hand over your life first. We would consider that bad preaching, a confusion of the order of salvation.

The sacraments are very important for me is a Lutheran. Even when the preaching is bad, the music is bad, I have a reason to go to church... to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and hear the words, "This is the true body of Christ given for the forgiveness of all your sins". And when I am troubled with doubts that I am a real Christian, like Luther I can say to myself "I am baptized".

Lutherans are not "decisional theology" types. We can preach the Gospel, even to people who haven't heard it, without having to engage in a hard sell. In fact I would say it's not a sell at all, more like proclamation. Just an example but yesterday I was responding here to someone who had problems spiritually, and everybody else intellectualized the problem, trying to sell him on God, and I realized the problem is that he just needed to hear the Good News for himself all over again. Because I honestly have the same problem. Every human being has that problem. There's not some separate preaching for the insiders or the outsiders in Lutheranism (and from what I remember of Orthodoxy, it was similar to that as well).



Laying on of hands isn't a rite?

There was no laying on of hands In the services mentioned in nearly every occasion( if not all)

We often fail God, this I admit in my own life.
But when we accept Christ we are called to accept him as Lord and saviour of our life.
He is our Lord isn't he?
Do I fail to always put Christ first? Of course I do, miserably at times. But I dont see how This changes the fact, what matters most to God is how much of our lives, from the heart we are willing to surrender to Christ.
For me there is no question, this is what matters most to God, far more than the act of partaking of sacraments.
I am not speaking of you in anyway here.
But you have two extremes in the church in my view.
On the one side are the legalists. You must earn your way to heaven by being good enough under the law.
And the other extreme, gets upset if you even mention obligation in the Christian life as to anything you should do.
They cry legalism.

Paul preached grace and responsibility, for me we should accept both

In my view, it I wonderful you did not Intellectualise the problem concerning chatting to the person you described.
God bless

 

[stuart lawrence]

Anastasia quoted James 5 that says confession forgives sin.

1 John 1:7 says if we walk with Christ that His blood "cleanses" us (continuous present, not merely a past event.)

Christ says in John 6 that unless we eat His flesh and blood (that's present tense) we have no fellowship with Him.

So, participating in the life of the Church in its mysteries (i.e. sacraments) IS in the Scripture. I have an incomplete article I am writing on it-- Excuse the typos:

__

Depending on what church you go to, your church teaches there are two or, perhaps, seven sacraments. If you go to a Baptist church the word "sacrament" is avoided entirely in favor of another: ordinance.

An ordinance is something we do because Jesus Christ commanded us to do it.

A sacrament has a greater meaning. The word means "mystery." Calling an ordinance a mystery is a reference to the idea that something more than what we see is going on. In the following, I am going to make the argument from the Scriptures that there are two sacraments/mysteries ordained by Christ, and five more from the apostles.

1. Baptism

The ordinance: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19).

The mystery: "[A]ll of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" (Rom 6:3-4).

2. The Lord's Supper

The ordinance: "He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes" (1 Cor 11:24-26).

The mystery: "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56).

3. Chrismation/Confirmation

The ordinance: "For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:16-17; See also Acts 19:6).

The mystery: "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him" (1 John 2:27).

4. Marriage

The ordinance: "[E]ach man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband" (1 Cor 7:2).

The mystery: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church" (Eph 5:31-32).

5. Anointing the sick

The ordinance: "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:15).

6. Confession

The ordinance: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another" (James 5:16; specifically to the Elders in James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him" (James 5:15).

Agreed, all disciples/ christians should be baptised in water

At every church I have ever been to they have communion

Two separate events in Acts ch8.
They became believers, therefore the holy spirit had already entered their lives. But they did not receive the filling of the holy Spirit until peter and John went to samaria.

Agreed, if you don't want to remain celebrate you must get married

As I have previously, in detail explained you do not have to be anointed with oil to be healed

Every born again Christian will confess to God when they err, if they had to be told they must do it, there is something badly wrong with their religious experience.

BTW

What is the true bread( when that term is used) from heaven that gives eternal life to man?

 

[stuart lawrence]

May I ask EO a question?

Why was it not possible, when asked what your righteousness is before God, to immediately reply:

Faith in Christ.

That Is what the NT repeatedly states is your righteousness.

I dont know of any verse That uses the word righteousness that states your righteousness Is anything other Than faith in Christ.
You can act righteously, but your righteousness as a christian to God is faith in his son.

If i am wrong, and you know of a verse that states your righteousness Is something other than faith in Christ, please let me know

 

[FireDragon76]

But when we accept Christ we are called to accept him as Lord and saviour of our life.

Lutherans don't focus on salvation as an offer. In fact Jesus saves us completely with his own power:

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me by his gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith; in like manner as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and preserves it in union with Jesus Christ in the true faith; in which Christian Church He daily forgives abundantly all my sins, and the sins of all believers, and will raise up me and all the dead at the last day, and will grant everlasting life to me and to all who believe in Christ. This is most certainly true. " - Martin Luther, Explanation of the Third Article of the Creed

He is our Lord isn't he?

Savior first, then Lord:

"28Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls" Matthew 11:28-29

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia quoted James 5 that says confession forgives sin.

1 John 1:7 says if we walk with Christ that His blood "cleanses" us (continuous present, not merely a past event.)

Christ says in John 6 that unless we eat His flesh and blood (that's present tense) we have no fellowship with Him.

So, participating in the life of the Church in its mysteries (i.e. sacraments) IS in the Scripture. I have an incomplete article I am writing on it-- Excuse the typos:

__

Depending on what church you go to, your church teaches there are two or, perhaps, seven sacraments. If you go to a Baptist church the word "sacrament" is avoided entirely in favor of another: ordinance.

An ordinance is something we do because Jesus Christ commanded us to do it.

A sacrament has a greater meaning. The word means "mystery." Calling an ordinance a mystery is a reference to the idea that something more than what we see is going on. In the following, I am going to make the argument from the Scriptures that there are two sacraments/mysteries ordained by Christ, and five more from the apostles.

1. Baptism

The ordinance: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19).

The mystery: "[A]ll of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" (Rom 6:3-4).

2. The Lord's Supper

The ordinance: "He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes" (1 Cor 11:24-26).

The mystery: "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56).

3. Chrismation/Confirmation

The ordinance: "For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:16-17; See also Acts 19:6).

The mystery: "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him" (1 John 2:27).

4. Marriage

The ordinance: "[E]ach man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband" (1 Cor 7:2).

The mystery: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church" (Eph 5:31-32).

5. Anointing the sick

The ordinance: "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:15).

6. Confession

The ordinance: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another" (James 5:16; specifically to the Elders in James 5:14).

The mystery: "[T]he prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him" (James 5:15).

Thank you abacabb - although I alluded to various passages, I was going to come back when I had time and post them for @stuart lawrence - but you've laid out an answer.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There was no laying on of hands In the services mentioned in nearly every occasion( if not all)

We often fail God, this I admit in my own life.
But when we accept Christ we are called to accept him as Lord and saviour of our life.
He is our Lord isn't he?
Do I fail to always put Christ first? Of course I do, miserably at times. But I dont see how This changes the fact, what matters most to God is how much of our lives, from the heart we are willing to surrender to Christ.
For me there is no question, this is what matters most to God, far more than the act of partaking of sacraments.
I am not speaking of you in anyway here.
But you have two extremes in the church in my view.
On the one side are the legalists. You must earn your way to heaven by being good enough under the law.
And the other extreme, gets upset if you even mention obligation in the Christian life as to anything you should do.
They cry legalism.

Paul preached grace and responsibility, for me we should accept both

In my view, it I wonderful you did not Intellectualise the problem concerning chatting to the person you described.
God bless

You are creating the extremes, between Sacraments, Church, etc. on one hand, and on the other is giving your heart and life to Christ. This is a false dichotomy. Nowhere in the receiving of grace through the Sacraments do we say, for example, that we must not submit completely to Christ and rely on Him. In fact, the opposite is true. Without faith in Christ, they WOULD be empty and meaningless rituals, devoid of grace.

(This is the answer to your charge earlier, of the mafia perhaps receiving Sacraments - though I would also point out that this is usually associated with Catholicism's views, which are already tending toward legalism in contrast to Orthodoxy.)

But it is not, and cannot be, a matter of either/or. It must be a matter of both/and.

 

[~Anastasia~]

May I ask EO a question?

Why was it not possible, when asked what your righteousness is before God, to immediately reply:

Faith in Christ.

That Is what the NT repeatedly states is your righteousness.

I dont know of any verse That uses the word righteousness that states your righteousness Is anything other Than faith in Christ.
You can act righteously, but your righteousness as a christian to God is faith in his son.

If i am wrong, and you know of a verse that states your righteousness Is something other than faith in Christ, please let me know

That is the basis of our SALVATION. Certainly. But you asked what was the basis of our righteousness.

If we view righteousness = salvation, then we risk being accused of believing that we can work our way to worthiness before God, which of course, we cannot do.

 

[stuart lawrence]

That is the basis of our SALVATION. Certainly. But you asked what was the basis of our righteousness.

If we view righteousness = salvation, then we risk being accused of believing that we can work our way to worthiness before God, which of course, we cannot do.

I asked what was a christians righteousness