Dutch Sheets?

[ARBITER01]

Really?

Can you provide, say..... ONE link to a church or ministry website that calls themselves Word of Faith and has a different doctrinal stance.

If you can do that, I'll agree with you.

You don't have to agree with me. I already provided the wiki link that identifies your "teaching movement" to everyone, they can decide.

The AOG is an established denomination with bylaws and a systematic organization. It's neat that you post their beliefs alongside Rhema's site to bolster your movement somehow, but they have never claimed affiliation with Rhema that I have ever seen.

 

[KingZzub]

"perhaps more than you"

Simon, are you calling for a miracle off? Lol...

No I don't think that miracles are exclusive to the Word of Faith movement, but when you say that sickness is the will of God - a doctrine that is not in the New Covenant or the ministry of Jesus one iota - then you are stopping people having the faith that makes them well, and you will see less miracles.

I am sure that you have seen like me your fair share of people getting out of wheelchairs, deaf ears opening, people healed of cancer, and so on, but what we have in Word of Faith (actually, the Word of God) is healing guaranteed to those who believe in the redemptive work of Jesus. That is why everyone coming to our church is healed.

 

[KingZzub]

Not wishing to go toe-to-toe with you on this. I'm not in any way advocating the concept of Dutch Sheets teaching or practicing polygamy. The discussion was a purely hypothetical one. Hypothetical concepts often come up in a discussion. You're welcome to join in the OP discussion if you wish or you can continue on with the TB argument which will almost certainly end with this thread's premature closure. It's up to you.

I know you weren't, I was referring to the original post comparing Dutch Sheet'#s presence movement to polygamy. It's a loaded reference that was introduced to polarise us to someone.

 

[Simon Peter]

That is why everyone coming to our church is healed.

That's an amazing claim. Everyone that comes to your church is healed? Really?

 

[KingZzub]

You don't have to agree with me. I already provided the wiki link that identifies your "teaching movement" to everyone, they can decide.

Wikipedia, that well known accurate unbiased source of knowledge and information. It is supposed to be a more accurate picture of Word of Faith than Kenneth Hagin's website?!

The AOG is an established denomination with bylaws and a systematic organization. It's neat that you post their beliefs alongside Rhema's site to bolster your movement somehow, but they have never claimed affiliation with Rhema that I have ever seen.

No one is trying to bolster anything. Your understanding of this is wrong, no one is claiming that they are affiliated, just that they believe the same things. If you left a Rhema Church and went to an AoG church you would not have to change your statement of faith.

Simon Peter wants us all to leave Word of Faith and adopt a traditional form of Christianity. Obviously he means a charismatic form of Christianity or he would not be on this forum calling us to adopt it. The most traditional form of "Spirit-filled" Christianity in the States is the AoG or the Foursquare. Balance is pointing out that how can we change to a more traditional form of Christianity when the most traditional form believes what we believe.

 

[KingZzub]

That's an amazing claim. Everyone that comes to your church is healed? Really?

So far yes. Asthma, Cancer, all sorts. Jesus Christ paid the price for every sickness and every disease to be healed. His will is healing, not sickness.

I preached at the FGBMI meeting a few months ago and everyone in the room who was sick was healed. That is not unexpected, that is the will of God.

I have written a book on the two ways we can receive healing. The river way which is unreliable and needs a man of God, or the faith way which needs the word of God and is utterly reliable. I share the testimony of how I was healed by a river, but I needed to learn the Word of God to see my son healed.

I don't often manifest the gift of healing, but I teach people about how Christ has redeemed us from sickness and how to receive healing.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You don't have to agree with me. I already provided the wiki link that identifies your "teaching movement" to everyone, they can decide.

Using wiki to prove your point is like using American Idol to judge who gets into Julliard.

I quote directly from the sites of the people in question. I am simply asking you to do the same to substantiate your accusation.

You're not affiliated with the AOG, or any denomination for that matter, nor do you have any established belief system that all followers of this movement adhere to.

I do not believe you can prove it from any ministry that calls themselves Word of Faith.

And I am challenging you to do so.

So far everything you have posted shows that you, in fact, cannot.

 

[Simon Peter]

So far yes. Asthma, Cancer, all sorts. Jesus Christ paid the price for every sickness and every disease to be healed. His will is healing, not sickness.

Oh I get it...this is 'positive confession'. For you to admit/state that someone walked out of one of your services with a sickness or disease would be a lack of faith that they've 'actually' been healed.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Lol, Balance. And how are those any different to the ones posted on Bentley's site?

My concern is when WoF believe it is always God's will to heal, when they practice 'postive confession', when they believe that suffering doesn't come from God, et al...

That is completely incorrect Word of Faith believes that healing is provided for in the Atonement and a privilege of every believer. As stated in our doctrinal stance and in every doctrinal stance of a church that calles themselves word of faith.

 

[KingZzub]

Oh I get it...this is 'positive confession'. For you to admit/state that someone walked out of one of your services with a sickness or disease would be a lack of faith that they've 'actually' been healed.

No, I am telling you that everyone who has come to our church has been healed in that their healing has manifest in this realm.

I believe in making faith statements because I believe the Bible, but that is not what I am talking about here.

 

[KingZzub]

Lol, Balance. And how are those any different to the ones posted on Bentley's site?

Because Rhema and AoG don't have a section at the bottom of their statement of faith on additional revelation!

 

[ARBITER01]

Using wiki to prove your point is like using American Idol to judge who gets into Julliard.

I quote directly from the sites of the people in question. I am simply asking you to do the same to substantiate your accusation.



I do not believe you can prove it from any ministry that calls themselves Word of Faith.

And I am challenging you to do so.

So far everything you have posted shows that you, in fact, cannot.

Well are you guys a established denomination? Yes or No.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Well are you guys a established denomination? Yes or No.

So you cannot substantiate your claim - ok, that's clear to everyone who has read this thread. I'm done. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Simon Peter]

No, I am telling you that everyone who has come to our church has been healed in that their healing has manifest in this realm.

I believe in making faith statements because I believe the Bible, but that is not what I am talking about here.

Then why don't you walk over to the local hospital and invite the whole childrens ward to Sunday service? Or do you not think it's God's will to heal them?

 

[KingZzub]

You answer Balance's question first, he asked first!

 

[Simon Peter]

Because Rhema and AoG don't have a section at the bottom of their statement of faith on additional revelation!

OK, so your saying the difference between Bentley and Rhema/AoG is this:

We recognize that God is continually restoring truth and light to His Church by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we place no limit on further revelation; however, all revelation must be substantiated and validated according to the Scriptures, the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, which we believe to be the Word of God, fully inspired and without error, the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct according to 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 1 Peter 1:21; Hebrews 4:12).


Why do WoF and Pentecostal have different forums here at CF then? I mean if you guys are identical in what you believe

 

[Simon Peter]

You answer Balance's question first, he asked first!

Are you talking to me? What question?

 

[KingZzub]

Then why don't you walk over to the local hospital and invite the whole childrens ward to Sunday service? Or do you not think it's God's will to heal them?

Of course it is God's will to heal all who come to Him in faith. But faith comes by hearing the Word of God. As I preach the truth of God's Word in our church, the people who listen get healed. I cannot minister healing without teaching the Word!

You should learn some basic principles on faith before you do anything else, Simon. I suggest you study the ministry of Jesus and how he operated. Several times in the Bible he healed all who came to him, but in John 5 in the closest thing to a hospital we find in the gospels, Jesus healed one man.

Luke 5 tells us they came to hear and be healed. Many people want the be healed without the hearing, but God sent His Word and healed us. Jesus said so many times "your faith has healed you"... now as faith comes by hearing the Word, you could say "your hearing the Word has healed you".

 

[KingZzub]

Are you talking to me? What question?

My post was in response to Arbiter01, post 112.

Not aimed at you, you just posted inbetween us. Apologies for not quoting, no need to go Robert de Niro on me...

 

[KingZzub]

Why do WoF and Pentecostal have different forums here at CF then? I mean if you guys are identical in what you believe

Probably because from my experience most Pentecostals don't live what their statement of faith says. The AoG statement of faith says healing is for all and provided by Christ's redemptive work on the cross, many AoG people simply do not believe.

We have an 80 year old AoG preacher coming to our church soon. He remembers when the AoG believed what it said it believed. He will bring miracles, healings and all sorts when he comes, and I am excited about it.