Dutch Sheets?

[KingZzub]

So you do not believe he is Word of Faith then, Arbiter.

 

[Simon Peter]

So you do not believe he is Word of Faith then, Arbiter.

Ben, one of the reasons that Bentley attracted so much criticism from me - even before his affair with the babysitter - was that he was both extreme Apostolic AND extreme WoF.

His ministry affliations are mainly Apostolic, but his roots and his teachings include much WoF.

IOW, you can be both.

 

[ARBITER01]

So you do not believe he is Word of Faith then, Arbiter.

Me personally, no. Like I have said, I believe him to be just an extension of at least one church up in Canada that was a renegade out of the Vineyard movement. They even took their name back from them and denounced them years ago. People can decide for themselves from the clip.

I believe he only said the Hagin reference to try and purposely place himself in a more positive light with individuals that uphold his teachings.

 

[KingZzub]

@ Simon Peter,

You are critical of the Word of Faith?

You are further from the truth than I thought.

 

[KingZzub]

Me personally, no. Like I have said, I believe him to be just an extension of at least one church up in Canada that was a renegade out of the Vineyard movement. They even took their name back from them and denounced them years ago. People can decide for themselves from the clip.

I believe he only said the Hagin reference to try and purposely place himself in a more positive light with individuals that uphold his teachings.

It maybe as you say, but I felt that he genuinely was impressed with that one Hagin book. Not one of the many Bible based books, but the one book in which Hagin collates his visions. To me that seemed to impress Todd, rather than the Bible teachings.

 

[ARBITER01]

It maybe as you say, but I felt that he genuinely was impressed with that one Hagin book. Not one of the many Bible based books, but the one book in which Hagin collates his visions. To me that seemed to impress Todd, rather than the Bible teachings.

It doesn't really matter. The amount of deception rising up anymore is ridiculous. I personally wouldn't begin to decipher anything he has to say since it is so intertwined with false teachings and outright demonic behavior it is pitiful.

That's all I really have to say on this subject. People will either figure it out for themselves with GOD or continue to be deceived.

 

[Simon Peter]

@ Simon Peter,

You are critical of the Word of Faith?

You are further from the truth than I thought.

Ben,

I believe those who consider themselves 'Word of Faith' are part of the church. However, I strongly disagree with the WoF movement, their understanding of who God is, and many of their doctrines. Just as you are critical of those who don't believe as you do.

It's my hope that WoF believers will reject kenyon's and Hagin's approach to Christianity, for a more traditional Christian faith.

peace,
Simon

 

[hislegacy]

Ben,

I believe those who consider themselves 'Word of Faith' are part of the church. However, I strongly disagree with the WoF movement, their understanding of who God is, and many of their doctrines. Just as you are critical of those who don't believe as you do.

It's my hope that WoF believers will reject kenyon's and Hagin's approach to Christianity, for a more traditional Christian faith.

peace,
Simon

I can't speak for Kenyon, but I can for Hagin, since I taught at his school.

Kenneth Hagin's doctrinal stance is identical to the Assembly of God's because he used PC Nelson's outline, as did the AG.

His approach to Christianity is found here:

Which reads:

The Bible is the inspired Word of God.
• Our God is One, but manifested in three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. • Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam’s transgression and fall, sin came into the world.
• Salvation is the gift of God to man through faith in Jesus Christ.
• The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life.
• Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only.
• The Baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift and is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.
• We believe in sanctification, which is living a life of holiness.
• Healing is the privilege of every member of the Church today provided through Jesus’ death on the Cross.
• Jesus will return and “. . . The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air . . .” (1 Thess. 4:16–17).”
• The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is eternally lost and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting.


THE SCRIPTURES—The Bible is the inspired Word of God, the product of holy men of old who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant, as recorded in the New Testament, we accept as our infallible guide in matters pertaining to conduct and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21).


THE GODHEAD—Our God is One, but manifested in three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4; Phil. 2:6). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John 14:16; John 15:26).


MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION—Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam’s transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says “...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,” and “...There is none righteous, no, not one” (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8).
Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8–10).


ETERNAL LIFE AND THE NEW BIRTH—Man’s first step toward salvation is godly sorrow that worketh repentance. The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life (2 Cor. 7:10; John 3:3–5; 1 John 5:12).

WATER BAPTISM—Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only. The ordinance is a symbol of the Christian’s identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:36–39).
The following recommendation regarding the water baptismal formula is adopted; to wit: “On the confession of your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by His authority, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen.”


BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST—The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received subsequent to the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt. 3:11; John 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38,39; Acts 19:1–7; Acts 2:1–4).


SANCTIFICATION—The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ’s return (Heb. 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12–14; 1 Cor. 1:30).


DIVINE HEALING—Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (James 5:14,15; Mark 16:18; Isa. 53:4,5; Matt. 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24).


RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD—The angels said to Jesus’ disciples, “...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” His coming is imminent. When He comes, “...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...” (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10; 20:6).


HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION—The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms “eternal” and “everlasting,” used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Re

So, which of the many doctrines noted above do you disagree with?

And please point out which ones are not lined up with your "more traditional" Christianity?

And how are they different from the Assemblies of God Doctrines?

Found here

These are nonnegotiable tenets of faith that all Assemblies of God churches adhere to. This list is derived from the official Statement of Fundamental Truths. Click links below to see the complete original statement with scriptures.

1. WE BELIEVE...The Scriptures are Inspired by God and declare His design and plan for mankind.
2. WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God–revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).
3. WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.
4. WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.
5. WE BELIEVE...Every Person Can Have Restored Fellowship with God Through 'Salvation' (trusting Christ, through faith and repentance, to be our personal Savior). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]
6. WE BELIEVE...and practice two ordinances—(1) Water Baptism by Immersionafter repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation, and (2) Holy Communion (the Lord's Supper) as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and death for our salvation.
7. WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvationthat empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]
8. WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.
9. WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike.
10. WE BELIEVE...The Church has a Mission to seek and save all who are lost in sin. We believe 'the Church' is the Body of Christ and consists of the people who, throughout time, have accepted God's offer of redemption (regardless of religious denomination) through the sacrificial death of His son Jesus Christ.
11. WE BELIEVE...A Divinely Called and Scripturally Ordained Leadership Ministry Serves the Church. The Bible teaches that each of us under leadership must commit ourselves to reach others for Christ, to worship Him with other believers, to build up or edify the body of believers–the Church and to Meet human need with ministries of love and compassion.
12. WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]
13. WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]
14. WE BELIEVE...in The Millennial Reign of Christ when Jesus returns with His saints at His second coming and begins His benevolent rule over earth for 1,000 years. This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel and the establishment of universal peace.
15. WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.
16. WE BELIEVE...and look forward to the perfect New Heavens and a New Earththat Christ is preparing for all people, of all time, who have accepted Him. We will live and dwell with Him there forever following His millennial reign on Earth. 'And so shall we forever be with the Lord!'

 

[ARBITER01]

I can't speak for Kenyon, but I can for Hagin, since I taught at his school.

Kenneth Hagin's doctrinal stance is identical to the Assembly of God's because he used PC Nelson's outline, as did the AG.

Which is incorrect since you guys are not a denomination but a theological movement,..

Word of Faith (also known as Word-Faith or simply Faith) is a family of Christian churches[1] as well as a label applied by some observers to a teaching movement kindred to many Pentecostal and charismatic churches and individuals worldwide.

Word of Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're not affiliated with the AOG, or any denomination for that matter, nor do you have any established belief system that all followers of this movement adhere to.

 

[KingZzub]

Ben,

...

It's my hope that WoF believers will reject kenyon's and Hagin's approach to Christianity, for a more traditional Christian faith.

peace,
Simon

Well, hoping is not going to get me to leave Hagin and Kenyon alone and go back to a powerless, defeated Christianity that almost turned me away from God for live and maybe eternity.

Seen too many miracles, too much good stuff to become a Word of doubt person again.

Blessings,
Benjamin

 

[hislegacy]

You're not affiliated with the AOG, or any denomination for that matter, nor do you have any established belief system that all followers of this movement adhere to.

Really?

Can you provide, say..... ONE link to a church or ministry website that calls themselves Word of Faith and has a different doctrinal stance.

If you can do that, I'll agree with you.

 

[KingZzub]

Which is incorrect since you guys are not a denomination but a theological movement,..

You are going to have to unpack that, Arbiter, I think I know what you mean, but how can that have anything to do with what Balance said. He said that Rhema's statement of faith is the same as the AoG. Either that is true or not, it doesn't matter whether Rhema is a garage and AoG is a coffee shop - they can have the same statement of faith.

You're not affiliated with the AOG, or any denomination for that matter, nor do you have any established belief system that all followers of this movement adhere to.

I am not affliated with AoG or Rhema, but I think both those statements of faith are something I believe. Believing the same as someone does not mean I have to be affiliated with them.

Why does the similarities between AoG and Rhema upset you so much? Could it be because Rhema practise what they believe, and many AoG churches do not?

 

[CindyisHis]

When I read threads like these I groan. I'm with Jesus, with what He said..

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. NASB

 

[KingZzub]

Really?

Can you provide, say..... ONE link to a church or ministry website that calls themselves Word of Faith and has a different doctrinal stance.

If you can do that, I'll agree with you.

Looking forward to this one. Notice how Balance has highlighted CALLS THEMSELVES. Not uses the same songs or has once read a Hagin book!

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Thanks Andy, for getting this thread back on topic.

Well, I tried. It seems invoking the name of the Todd overrides all accepted protocols associated with this form of communication.

I probably shouldn't say this, but the "Presence Movement" seems to be on the usual path towards polygamy. We have seen this happen so many times in the past. One of the movements core values is (2 Samuel 6:10-11), and Dutch Sheets compares his "visitation" to hosting of His Presence to Obed-edom hosting he Ark of the Covenant, also called "the Ark of His Presence".

I'm always looking for new ideas, but let hope that those guys don't start hosting David's polygamist Presence.

"And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." (2 Samuel 12:8).

Just a thought!

Your example is but one of a plethora of examples from these scripture contortionists. It is truly an awe-inspiring sight to see and hear these things first hand and witness the masses lapping up the "Rhema" words from these men as if being visited by Christ Himself.

*EDIT* For the sake of those who haven't been following the conversation, I don't believe Dutch Sheets nor any one else associated with his ministry efforts are guilty of teaching or practicing polygamy. I get what you are saying, Banish'd but I do not wish to be misunderstood by anyone who happens to glance at this post after the TB furvor has died down.

 

[KingZzub]

Who is talking about polygamy?

That is derailing the thread. What a elephant to hurl into the debate.

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Who is talking about polygamy?

That is derailing the thread. What a elephant to hurl into the debate.

Banished brought it up in context of the OP. I was simply commenting on his/her statement.

On a side note, hard to derail a thread that has already hopped the tracks. Not sure if there is a bigger elephant to hurl than what has already been rampaging through this thread.

 

[KingZzub]

Well I think it is a bit rich to compare the theology of someone you disagree with to an ethical stance promoting polygamy!

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Well I think it is a bit rich to compare the theology of someone you disagree with to an ethical stance promoting polygamy!

Not wishing to go toe-to-toe with you on this. I'm not in any way advocating the concept of Dutch Sheets teaching or practicing polygamy. The discussion was a purely hypothetical one. Hypothetical concepts often come up in a discussion. You're welcome to join in the OP discussion if you wish or you can continue on with the TB argument which will almost certainly end with this thread's premature closure. It's up to you.

 

[Simon Peter]

I
So, which of the many doctrines noted above do you disagree with?

And please point out which ones are not lined up with your "more traditional" Christianity?

And how are they different from the Assemblies of God Doctrines?

Lol, Balance. And how are those any different to the ones posted on Bentley's site?

My concern is when WoF believe it is always God's will to heal, when they practice 'postive confession', when they believe that suffering doesn't come from God, et al...

ps. Balance, if there's no difference between WoF and AoG/Pentecostals, why are there two seperate forums on CF?

Well, hoping is not going to get me to leave Hagin and Kenyon alone and go back to a powerless, defeated Christianity that almost turned me away from God for live and maybe eternity.

Seen too many miracles, too much good stuff to become a Word of doubt person again.

Blessings,
Benjamin

Do you think miracles are exclusive to the WoF movement? I've seen and experienced many miracles in my life - perhaps more than you - yet do you think I live in a "powerless, defeated Christianity"?

Simon