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Dutch Sheets?

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by banish'd, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. Leimeng

    Leimeng Senior Member

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    ~ So, what is worse? Believing the false teachings of Bentley? or Calvin? or dispensationalism? or cessationism?
    ~ AFTER one answers that, one can opine on this. What is better? To believe the Word of GOD? Or the false teachings of Bentley, Calvin, dispensationalism or cessationism?
    ~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

    Peace,

    Leimeng

    Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

    (***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)
     
  2. KingZzub

    KingZzub Blessed to Be A Blessing

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    The opposite of prosperity is poverty.
     
  3. KingZzub

    KingZzub Blessed to Be A Blessing

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    You can make up what you like Link. I just think you have not got a clue what word of faith is all about.

    Who is disagreeing that there is one God? Don't insinuate that anyone is please, we all believe in one God.

    I did my thesis on Irenaeus (that is the correct spelling of his name by the way), and have read Against Heresies in Greek and in English. Not sure why you are mentioning him in this context - I don't believe in Gnosticism, do you?

    That is not an accuration translation and you know it. There is not one Bible translation that subscribes to this view, not one commentator who claims that.

    You have to reach back 1800 years to find one person who believes that, and as you know so much about Irenaeus, you presumably know that he was a universalist who believed that everyone would be saved. He also believed if what the church said contradicted Scripture, you should go with the church. He also told people that Judas was a Gnostic, and many of his ideas about Gnosticism were fallacies.

    So your case is built on the ideas of someone who lived 1800 years ago and had a whole host of strange ideas. Ah well, each to their own. I prefer to use the Bible personally.

    There are many such verses, Link. Maybe you need to read your Bible a bit more. Have you never read where Jesus cast out demons into pigs and the pigs ran off the cliff? Or was God directing the demons again?

    You mean that when the devil inspires someone to rape someone, God is behind it. Is that what you mean? That the devil is God's employee?

    That's nonsense. You are fluffing about and getting your knickers in a twist about people saying that Adam made a cow move when you believe that God is sending the devil off to rape and kill and destroy and steal. You have a messed up picture of God. God is a good God, He is our Father. He is the Father of lights and only good gifts come from Him!

    How could He? You do know what the word redeemed means don't you?

    No-one is trying to explain things away, just read the Bible accurately. You read a booklet. That's excellent. Did the Jehovah's Witnesses publish it - they believe God is behind all the disasters in the world?

    That is why after the devil attacked and stole from Job, God restored the fortunes of Job. That is what God is like. Job wasn't part of the New Testament as you can tell from the order your Bible is in.

    Why don't you quote verses in context? The context of this verse, 1 Peter 4.19 starts in verse 12 where Peter is talking about the persecution of the church. He tells people that it is great to be persecuted for being a Christian - but not for being sinful and selfish.

    No one has ever said Christians don't suffer in the Word of Faith movement. Kenneth Hagin has a wonderful book called Must Christians Suffer? Just because we know the truth that we are redeemed from sin, sickness and poverty doesn't mean we ignore the truth that there is persecution in this world for those who love the Lord and follow Him.

    The verse is Exodus 4.11 in case you didn't know. I have considered it. God is not saying "I make people blind". Come on - Jesus didn't go around blinding people. He healed the blind. He told us if we believe in Him we can do the works He did. The anointing of the Holy Spirit opens blind eyes.

    It means God made the blind person. The person who is blind was made by God. Which is great news because if God can make a whole person, God can heal blindness. I have seen the blind and deaf healed when the truth that Jesus Christ carried their sicknesses at Calvary is preached to them, so I am not about to fall for a misquoted misunderstood Scripture that means you think God makes people blind.

    I don't know why you doubt that God is good and that He sent His Son to redeem you from sin, sickness and poverty. Why is that?

    Me too. I can't stand man-made carnal junk - like the idea that Jesus makes people sick. That is carnal - as it gratifies the flesh "no, you are not sick because you haven't grasped the truth of the Word and if you have faith your faith will make you whole, no - go and watch TV and remember this is the will of God" - utterly carnal. It is also junk because the Bible says he bore our sicknesses.

    My reference to gossip is about the paucity of your references and links to what you are claiming. How can I address what you are saying some people are saying when it is just your word. You could claim you once watched a faith teacher torture kittens, but without proof. I bet you a can of coke the videos you watched were second-hand, i.e. someone else had cut and pasted them.

    I teach my people to enjoy where they are as they are renewing their mind and moving into prosperity and health as promised by 3 John 2.

    Good call. So how much money do you think is wrong then? Where is your cut off?

    Or enjoy life. It's in the verses you quoted just after you stopped quoting. I wonder why that was. You should read the whole counsel of God!

    Who is saying serve mammon? What a disgusting idea. Mammon serves me, not the other way around.

    Pedantry! Where did the computer come from? Growing on a tree in your garden was it?

    I don't cringe, I just teach people the truth of God's word. There is unfortunately a lot of false teaching out there, and a lot of Christians are living far below their potential because of it.

    Absolutely. I have read every Kenneth Hagin book. I have listened to over 300 of his sermons. I have read every Kenneth Copeland book. I have listened to every Believer's Convention since 2005.

    If the faith people are preaching it, I know about it. You are clearly getting some really fringe stuff and seizing on it. As I said before, that is just ridiculous. It shows you are trying to reject the movement, but cannot refute its core principles: we are redeemed, we are righteous, we are more than conquerors, our words have power. Deal with those. That is what Word of Faith is all about, not animals.

    Like the stuff Irenaeus preached about God, like his view of Adam and Eve. Did you know he preached that Christ was an old man when he was nailed to the cross? That is off the wall not grounded in the Word, wouldn't you say.

    Like I said, you have third or probably fourth or fifth hand information about a WoF preacher and you thought rather than engage with Scriptures you would quote something about a cow. Good for you! Just don't expect anyone to be swayed into your the devil does what God wants idea because of it.

    Blessings,
    Ben
     
  4. IchoozJC

    IchoozJC Regular Member

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    Well, I was worried that you would say that. But I do suppose that you lift up that WoF banner high! :p


    Would you consider this?...

    The opposite of prosperity is...... ready?..... FAILURE!

    To prosper means to succeed!

    Greek from strongs:

    1) to grant a prosperous and expeditious journey, to lead by a direct and easy way

    2) to grant a successful issue, to cause to prosper

    3) to prosper, be successful


    God's will is that we succeed in every kingdom oriented thing we do! That in no way implies that we need to have lots and lots of money. I do wish more of the self proclaimed prosperity teachers would get that.
     
  5. KingZzub

    KingZzub Blessed to Be A Blessing

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    Success is a great way of defining prosperity, choozy.

    Of course, if you succeed financially you will have money. Financial success is God's will for you, as well as emotional, relational, spiritual and every kind of success.

    Joshua was told if he stayed in the Word he would have good success. Being wealthy and dying of cancer is not good success. Being wealthy and lonely is not good success. Having health, but being homeless is not good success. Not having the money to pay your bills and enjoy your life and give to the gospel is not good success.

    Good success covers your entire life.
     
  6. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    It's a wonder that we could possibly be reading the same Bible!

    God allows His people to suffer, and He is with them in their suffering.
    God is not ashamed of our poverty, He is drawn to the poor.

    Success, is when I trust my Father in Heaven, do His will and bring Him glory.

    peace,
    Simon
     
  7. KingZzub

    KingZzub Blessed to Be A Blessing

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    It is a wonder Simon, you miss out so many verses and misinterpret so many!

    I am not ashamed of the poor, and I am drawn to the poor. And part of my ministry is helping people get out of debt, get into employment, get promotion, give and have money given to them, sow financially and reap financially...
     
  8. disciple-ofjesus

    disciple-ofjesus Well-Known Member

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    I wonder, and my only "issue" with WOF, how does financial prosperity work in 3rd world countries? How do the Christians there prosper financially? I do have another issue with WOF, but that is another topic for another time.
     
  9. CindyisHis

    CindyisHis I am my Beloved's and He is mine.

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    I understand it works very well there. I have heard of reports of it working there. God's Word is not hindered! I heard so many testimonies it is hard to remember exactly how each goes, but one or two both had to do with crops. The believers planted, as did those in the area where they lived, and the believers produced more and their crops were bigger.

    Even in Genesis, chapter 26, there was a famine in the land. There wasn't the local supermarket that had imported foods either. There was famine. So Isaac planted, and in the SAME year received a hundredfold harvest.

    Widows were sustained in famine.

    Debts were canceled, even if it meant an ax head had to float.

    God's Word is not hindered by circumstance.

    He is God. He is mighty. There is nothing too hard for Him.

    And Jesus.....teaching a multitude of people on two separate occasions fed them without going anywhere! Talk about supplying needs!
     
  10. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    Well it doesn't even "work" in the USA, the most prosperous of nations. There are many testimonies of Christians who left WoF poorer than when they started with WoF, sometimes after a decade or two.

    Though actually it does 'work' for a few, for an elite few, a bit like a pyramid scheme where those at the top prosper from those at the bottom. And these few are the testimonies that we mostly hear about. And for the many that it's not working for they rarely speak out, because admitting such would be a negative confession - a lack of faith - and that would be the reason pointed to for their failure to 'prosper'.


    peace,
    Simon
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  11. disciple-ofjesus

    disciple-ofjesus Well-Known Member

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    if it is working in say Haiti, why are they still the poorest country on the earth? I am sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. They have basically no money at all. So, nope. God's word is not void at all. But I don't think that prosperity richness that certain folks preach works at all in the poorest of poor countries...Africa etc. Nope. Not sold on that.
     
  12. LinkH

    LinkH Regular Member

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    What am I making up?

    Let's review our conversation. I listed as a 'word of fluff' teaching the idea that God lost rights to the earth at the fall, and had to go through a man to access the earth. You referred to a verse about Satan being the 'god of this world.' I showed you where Paul that though there be THAT ARE CALLED gods, we know that there is but one God. If the world treats Satan like a 'god', that doesn't mean he has power over the earth like God does. My point is very valid in context.

    No, I mentioned him just to make the point that the verse you chose could be translated differently, based on the interpretation of a Greek speaker less than 2 centuries removed from the language in the passage. I gave a little background so you or the readers would know who he was.

    I mentioned Irenaeus to show that the verse you suggested was ambiguous. I did not say that I agreed with everything Irenaeus said or did. All I know of his writings were what I read in Eusebius many years ago. I know that Origen wrote on universalism. Where did Irenaeus write on this topic?

    Irenaeus interpertation of the 'god of this world' passage is not inconsistent with the following passage, btw.

    Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

    You say my case is built on it? I quoted scripture that shows that there is one God. If the god of Ekron is Beelzebub, that doesn't mean Beelzebub is a real god.

    James says every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed. He cannot say he is tempted of God. James doesn't blame it on the devil. Satan can influence and tempt, but men chose to sin.

    It was your point. Not mine.

    I find your comment here to be dishonest. I did not say that God sent the devil off the rape people. That was your point. God does sometimes use even evil people or spirits to accomplish His will. I did not say that God is behind every sin like this.

    The verse says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. It does not say that the only gifts that come from God are 'good'. Certainly not every thing that God has given is 'good' from a carnal perspective of what is good. Peter wrote to Christians who suffered according to the will of God. All things work together for good to them that love God who are called according to His purpose. But the carnal man does not consider suffering to be 'good.'

    Does God only give the stuff that seems 'good' to us: wealth, health, riches, etc.?

    Lamentations 3:38
    37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
    38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

    Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    The KJV uses 'evil.' Other translations say things like 'ill' or calamity. the idea is not moral evil. In the Isaiah verse, 'evil' is contrasted with 'peace'. There are plenty of verses about God bringing such things on the disobedient.

    Maybe you don't have a problem with that concept, but I know a lot of 'Rhema' people do. Based on one of the Kenneth Hagin booklets, he had a problem with this idea, too. He argued that since ONE of the Hebrew words COULD mean 'allow' instead of 'cause' that God just allowed this bad stuff to happen. But he didn't bother to lead us through a Bible study of all the verses on the issue. (I don't know if this was his view on his life, but it was when he wrote the booklet or when it was written from his sermon.)


    Here, we see an example of God 'mediately' bringing disaster on the wicked, but sending someone who would kill people.

    Ezekiel 26
    7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.
    (NIV)

    He still had a redeemer, and he suffered calamity.

    I assume some familiarity with contexts of scripture. We both know the context of the passage. My point is showing that God can use suffering to accomplish His will, not just the 'good' stuff from a human perspective.

    There are other forms of suffering that Christians may have to endure. Paul listed a few others besides persecution in his list in Romans 8.

    Romans 8
    35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
    (NIV)


    Certain translators certainly take that angle.

    Jesus went around doing good and healing all those who were oppressed of the Devil.

    We also read of Israel's enemies,
    II Kings 6:18
    And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

    Amen.

    God is good. And all things work together for good to them that love Him and are called according to His purposes. That may involve some suffering. God also executes judgment on the wicked.

    God being good doesn't mean that God wants everyone to wear a lot of gold and diamond bling and drive a Ferrari either.

    As for the idea of God making believers sick, consider this passage:

    29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
    33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
    34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

    Then why didn't you just say, "Amen, I don't believe that word of fluff" instead of acting like you wanted to defend my list.

    Here is another teaching that was quite common in WOF circles in the 1990's-- that believers should not pray for something more than once. (Forget the parable of the unjust judge.) Have you ever heard anyone say that you shouldn't pray 'Thy will be done'-- a phrase in the Lord's prayer?

    I didn't know WOFers gambled. I'd prefer a can of juice. I try to stay away from the acids in Coke.

    Just out of curiosity, have you ever taught on that passage I quoted earlier, that godliness with contentment is great gain, and that they who want to be rich fall into a snare and a trap and many, seeking to be rich, have departed from the faith, having pierced themselves through with many griefs?

    It wouldn't be right to put a dollar (or pound) figure on something like this. Considering people can actually live on a dollar a day in some countries, it wouldn't make sense to even try to do such a thing. We are all to be good stewards. What we do know from the Bible is that Christians are to learn to be content with what they have and that they are not to desire to be rich in worldly goods.

    And our teaching should not encourage people to be greedy. If someone's teaching causes other people to desire to be rich, and attracts men with greedy hearts, there is a problem.

    I don't know what verse you are referring to. But of course we are to enjoy God's blessings with thanksgiving.

    I'm a grad student, so it came from state funds or a donation.

    I know some people who come out of rhema who are balanced. I've also knew one guy fresh out who just quoted Kenneth Hagin all the time as the authority for just about everything he said, but he grew out of that. But there is a lot of these fringe teachings coming out of very famous WOF guys all the time, like the creation examples I mentioned. Do you think Christian should just ignore these things?

    There is also the problem of the underlying implication that Christians should desire to be rich, a thread that runs through several preachers methods. I don't consider that to be a peripherial issue.

    And the doctrine of the atonement and the finished work on the cross is a very core issue of the Christian faith.

    Like I said, I don't endorse everything Irenaeus taught. I had heard of this. At least the tradition he repeated here does not go against scripture, like teaching people to desire to be rich does. The Bible doesn't say how old Christ was at His death. He started traveling around preaching at about 30 years old. We know that. The thirty-three and a half figure presumably comes from assuming the fewest number of years possible based on the feasts mentioned in the Gospels.

    If Herod died at 4 BC, and the temple really were destroyed right at 70 AD, the thirty-three and a half figure may be hard to arrive at, especially since Herod decreed that children two years old and under were to die. Assuming Christ was two at that decree, and the other numbers are right, that would put his age at at least 37. But we don't know that the temple was destroyed right at 70 AD.

    Why don't you ask me and wait for a response instead of starting with your 'probably's. I heard these things on videos of sermons.

    And why would you launch a debate to defend WOF over my post. Why not just agree with me and move on. I suspect you are a bit defensive about the topic.

    If a cessationist says there are Charismatics who believe crazy things, and lists some teachings that contradict scripture, I wouldn't try to defend their teachings.

    The devil has limits on what He is allowed to do. The Bible does not teach that God lost His rights to the earth at the fall.
     
  13. Hisgirl

    Hisgirl Loved into Heaven by a Violent Act of Grace

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    I haven't posted on here in quite some time. I left due to the careless bashing of brothers and sisters...harsh words, lies, rumors, accusations. Personal opinions were idolized at the expense of another's reputation.

    Above, I bolded an example of what I am talking about. Those words were spoken with no factual knowledge and now you have accused a man of possibly not being able to discern truth from a lie.

    You do not know Dutch Sheets, but are judging him. A man who claims to worship Jesus Christ as Lord and teaches that salvation is "We believe salvation, the gift of God, is provided solely by His grace through faith in Christ. By turning from sin in repentance, looking in faith to Christ and His death on the cross, man receives eternal life and is born again. There is no other name except Jesus Christ by which men may be saved."

    This was taken directly from his church where he is head pastor. We Believe

    Not only was Dutch Sheets not on stage that day in Lakeland, he never attended one meeting there. His own words regarding that 'coronation' was that it was "... unwise at best, naïve at least and at its worst, foolish."

    The truth is, back during the Lakeland meetings, Dutch Sheets was silent. He did not attend the meetings, nor share his opinions. He finally did send out a letter expressing how he felt about the meetings and it was anything but supportive.

    From Dutch Sheets:
    Did I endorse the Lakeland meetings? No, I did not, nor did I condemn them. I acknowledged that healings were occurring and some were being saved, which I still believe and rejoice over. I realized and stated that the thousands of people attending were hungry and sincere, as were those involved in leading the 2 meetings.


    The worship was regularly good. But looking past some of the immediate and positive results, I, like many, also looked ahead to the possible fruit from questionable doctrine and experiences, exaggeration and hype, youthful pride, character issues and the frightening potential of a 32 year “young” man leading a movement that could shape the future of the Church.


    These things were frightening, very frightening, to others and me. When something has the potential of setting precedent, birthing a movement and being reproduced as a prototype, we are no longer simply endorsing good brothers, good intentions and miracles."

    Dutch Sheets Apologies for Todd Bentley Lakeland Revival | The Voice Christian magazine

    So you see Faulty, you have misspoken and attributed an act to an man who not only did not partake in that act, but called that act 'unwise, foolish and naive'.

    Please be careful....if not for the sake of the reputation of others, for your own self. You wouldn't want to be known for spreading untruths.

    Peace to you....
     
  14. disciple-ofjesus

    disciple-ofjesus Well-Known Member

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    AMEN and cudos to you Hisgirl. That was very well said and done in love. I absolutley agree with what you wrote! Thank you for that.
     
  15. ARBITER01

    ARBITER01 Legend

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    Interesting,..

    So a person remains neutral over a situation, remaining neither hot nor cold, and now wants to state his opinion after the dust has cleared???

    I wonder where Christianity would be if say Paul remained neutral over situations he saw and knew about, and didn't speak up?? Was it really wise before GOD for him to not say anything over what he knew was going on?

    Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
     
  16. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    It doesn't sound like he remained neutral to me. FTA;
    ...Did I voice my concerns to the appropriate people? Yes, including stating my concerns for Todd’s marriage to the Lakeland Outpouring Apostolic Team. Did they listen? Some did, some didn’t...
    Perhaps every Tom, Dick and Harry on the Internet isn't who Dutch would consider "the appropriate people" to voice his concerns to. I would tend to agree.

    :cool:
     
  17. Hisgirl

    Hisgirl Loved into Heaven by a Violent Act of Grace

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    Dave, I've always considered you a man who honors a brother. If you had realized Pastor Sheets issued that letter late summer 2008, when the meetings at Lakeland were still going on, I'm sure you wouldn't have stated the above. I apologize for not posting the date of the article.

    The link which contains the article doesn't show dates till the bottom and it's a rather long statement as he had a lot of thoughts to share. A bit much for one to take the time to read, I'm sure.

    Peace to you all...:)
     
  18. disciple-ofjesus

    disciple-ofjesus Well-Known Member

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    one thing I have discovered in my short time here, is that there is no satisfying some. they will find fault with everything no matter what. It is a sad state for a "spirit" filled area. I am wondering what "spirit" it really is. Just sayin'.
     
  19. ~RENEE~

    ~RENEE~ Legend

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    :thumbsup:
     
  20. Hisgirl

    Hisgirl Loved into Heaven by a Violent Act of Grace

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    I believe people who are moving in-step with the Holy Spirit and wanting to minister to others with the giftings, are quite the threat to the things that cause pain and suffering in the world.

    That's why we fight in-camp.

    I was complaining about a character flaw in a saint the other day and the Holy Spirit said in my spirit, "When you use your tongue to accuse and complain, you perpetuate the very thing you want to see changed."

    :doh:Ah yes, the power of the tongue. I'm not to curse my brother..or my enemy for that matter, but to call out the gold in his life. Anyone can find dirt in a gold mine.

    And it starts in my thoughts. If I don't think ill of my brother, I'll not have to watch what comes out of my mouth. Maybe one day I'll get this....:)

    I pray to see all men with God's eyes. That's my prayer.
     
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