Dutch Sheets?

[KingZzub]

Well, it depends on whether Jesus was telling us that judging others was the plank and that the sin of the other person is the speck, which is what nearly everyone I have ever heard discuss that verse mean.

But I suppose if you set yourself up as one of the watchdogs in the church you would have to have another meaning for it.

 

[Simon Peter]

Well, it depends on whether Jesus was telling us that judging others was the plank and that the sin of the other person is the speck, which is what nearly everyone I have ever heard discuss that verse mean.

But I suppose if you set yourself up as one of the watchdogs in the church you would have to have another meaning for it.

I can believe that everyone you know thinks it's about judging others. But the scriptures actually encourage us to judge others in the church in several places; and there's loads of examples of this happening. So I don't buy the judging angle.

The parable is about hypocrisy, and about seeing things in perspective. Like this scripture:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

It's about disputable matters (specks). I do not think we should judge others in the church over small and unimportant issues or sins. It's the serious stuff we need to be concerned about.

And if they are leaders, they need to be held to a higher standard.

But Ben, why are you allowed to judge us for judging, if you think it's wrong to judge? You still haven't answered this question.

peace,
Simon

 

[KingZzub]

Why can you judge my judging?!

It's a really ridiculous thing to say, Simon. You are comparing two totally different things.

Do you really think that me telling you on a discussion forum that it is doubt and unbelief to refuse to accept that Jesus bore our sicknesses on the cross is the same thing as me coming to your church and yelling it out while you are preaching?

One is part of the nature of a discussion group and debate group, the other is just rude.

 

[Simon Peter]

Why can you judge my judging?!

Well I'm not the one claiming it's wrong to judge others in the church.

It's a really ridiculous thing to say, Simon. You are comparing two totally different things.

Do you really think that me telling you on a discussion forum that it is doubt and unbelief to refuse to accept that Jesus bore our sicknesses on the cross is the same thing as me coming to your church and yelling it out while you are preaching?

One is part of the nature of a discussion group and debate group, the other is just rude.

I've never said it's right or wrong to interupt a service. I wasn't talking about that. I do think we have a right to warn other Christians about false prophets and false teachers?

But you do think it's OK to criticise/judge other Christians in certain situations then.

Do you think we should be able to warn other Christians about false teachers and false prophets?

peace,
Simon

 

[KingZzub]

Of course I think it is fine, but I believe very strongly that it should be done in the basis of relationship and trust, and in the context of a positive teaching and discipling ministry.

What I think is absolutely out of order is the ministries that think that their sole or even main purpose is to call out others. Not Biblical, not in the slightest.

So for example, we have a couple of people in our church who have just been to see a certain charismatic minister. Now I know that her whole ministry is based on falsehoods and deceptions, so I have told them that and showed them from the Scripture where her ministry is wrong. They thought there was something wrong in the meetings, but could not put their finger on it.

But I don't start a blog against her and follow her every move around the country. I didn't go to the meetings with a placard and call her out. Too busy preaching the gospel, teaching the kingdom and healing the sick to do that. Anyone who does just that is not following the commands of Jesus, they just do not have the time. And it is no-ones primary calling, look at Ephesians 4 and see what the primary functions are.

In addition a lot of these watchdog ministries have no discernment at all, you find them at Copeland meetings, Andrew Wommack meetings and many meetings of great preachers who base what they say on God's Word. It shows how little you can trust them.

I say: feed the sheep, let them grow up and a lot of these issues disappear. Walk in the Word of God, teach the positive and people will recognise the negative.

A lot of the calling out stuff that goes on has a real nasty tone to it, as witnessed by the Todd Bentley stuff. Would I go to Todd Bentley if he came to town, no. Not to get bammed, not to criticize, I would just keep doing what I am doing - helping Jesus build His church.

 

[probinson]

This is always the end game; "You're judging me for being judgmental."

 

[Simon Peter]

Of course I think it is fine, but I believe very strongly that it should be done in the basis of relationship and trust, and in the context of a positive teaching and discipling ministry.

What I think is absolutely out of order is the ministries that think that their sole or even main purpose is to call out others. Not Biblical, not in the slightest.
...

In addition a lot of these watchdog ministries have no discernment at all, you find them at Copeland meetings, Andrew Wommack meetings and many meetings of great preachers who base what they say on God's Word. It shows how little you can trust them.

I think there are a number of good teaching ministries out there that do a great service to the church by pointing out unscriptural teaching, and those that insist on teaching those errors and leading God's people astray.

So are you saying it's OK to warn about false teachers, as long as it's not your main ministry objective?

I'm a bit confused by your attempts to publically call FaultySurplus out, harshly judging him and demanding a retraction or apology. Hardly seemed to be based on relationship and trust in the context of positive teaching?

To me it seems like you have a double standard. You want to judge people, but don't don't want others to judge.

Which brings us to Pete:

This is always the end game; "You're judging me for being judgmental."

It's always the end game because those in the 'do not judge lest you be judged' camp', have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer for the blatant double standard.


peace,
Simon

 

[banish'd]

I am the author of this thread, so I guess I should add my two cents once in a while? Dutch Sheets is coming across like a used car salesman in his "Intercessory Prayer" DVD, and he is not speaking God's Word like a Word of Faith minister would do.

Sure, he is a good looking guy with a great personality. He has a real nice smile, and everyone laughs at his jokes. He tells his real life stories, and he tells us how some people were healed while he visited a hospital. Maybe it's judging, but I can't believe every used car salesman that comes along.

Maybe I have to keep watching the DVD, but so far, Dutch did not lay his hand on a sick person and speak God's Word.

He did not speak this verse so that the patient would hear it:

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

Maybe there is another way to heal with a oneway intercessory pray to God the Father that is based on our desire? Dutch calls it a meeting. What do you think? I am open to new ideas.