Dutch Sheets?

[Seeking Him]

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it. This is going to be an interesting bible study, because both Dutch and Sheets are members of the "Presence Movement". The small church "Vineyard" statement of faith doesn't support the "Presence Movement". The movement believes that salvation is through mercy rather than the Cross. From what I have read, God spoke to Dutch and the movement is trying to take over the world. I noticed that "Hosting the Presence" is a lot like the Catholic theory of the Presence of Jesus in the wafer.

The old way of intercessory pray involved the Cross, so I am wondering about Dutch and his new ideas? Basically, in the old days we used go deep within our soul to confess our sins and then fast for a couple of days. That way we could die onto our self. Then we would surrender our self into God the Father's hands, and be crucified with Christ. The Holy Spirit proceedth from the Father through us to the Son who interceded to God the Father. We spoke a Bible Verse as authority. I guess they call that "Word of Faith"?

I would appreciate knowing more about Dutch and the Presence Movement if anyone has something to add. Are they New Age? I already know that I'm out of date, so forget about that.

There is a great apologetics site called "Sola Dei Gloria" that will inform you of the perils of the New Apostolic Reformation, Dutch Sheets ect. Here is some of what I read there on what Dutch Sheets said recently at a conference on claiming the "Seven Mountains" Dominionism:

Chuck Pierce had a vision that 23 states in the US have a "righteous root". This is where a release of the anointing can happen. 27 states do not have a righteous root. I (Dutch Sheets) have a strategy to get to the 27 states. You need to know, "am I in one of the 23 states?".

This is totally unscriptural.

 

[vanilla8]

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it. This is going to be an interesting bible study, because both Dutch and Sheets are members of the "Presence Movement". The small church "Vineyard" statement of faith doesn't support the "Presence Movement". The movement believes that salvation is through mercy rather than the Cross. From what I have read, God spoke to Dutch and the movement is trying to take over the world. I noticed that "Hosting the Presence" is a lot like the Catholic theory of the Presence of Jesus in the wafer.

The old way of intercessory pray involved the Cross, so I am wondering about Dutch and his new ideas? Basically, in the old days we used go deep within our soul to confess our sins and then fast for a couple of days. That way we could die onto our self. Then we would surrender our self into God the Father's hands, and be crucified with Christ. The Holy Spirit proceedth from the Father through us to the Son who interceded to God the Father. We spoke a Bible Verse as authority. I guess they call that "Word of Faith"?

I would appreciate knowing more about Dutch and the Presence Movement if anyone has something to add. Are they New Age? I already know that I'm out of date, so forget about that.

I wouldn't say they are new age as such, but Chuck Pierce seems to lean pretty heavily on Kabbalah for his prophesies. Chuck Pierce teaches and prophesies the Kabbalah! « End Times Prophetic, Prophecy, Visions, Dreams, Revelation, Christian Blog

Just to note, that the blogger in the link, seems to have a bad word to say about every Christian ministry, but the information in this is checkable.

 

[KingZzub]

I wouldn't recommend either site. The guy who runs iSola Dei Gloria is just obsessed with what is wrong with people, and has told outright lies in conversations I have had with him. He also has more than once editted my comments on his blog making it look like I was saying something different than I was.

Miriam who runs the endtimesprophetic site has cursed me before for disagreeing with her and banned someone from our church from her site who was a 1 month old Christian for not expressing themselves in theological language she liked. She wrote a comment on her blog calling me the wicked wolf. My response to it was on my blog: http://treeoflifelondon.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/benjamin-is-a-ravenous-wolf/

There are other ways to get information than looking at these so-called watchdog people - you don't want to imbibe their critical, harsh spirit. You could read what was in your study, line it up with the Bible and read the Bible for yourself for example.

 

[banish'd]

Umm Dutch Sheets is ONE man's name.

Hello Balance,

I read somewhere on the Internet that the United States Apostolic Alliance (USAA):

1. C.Peter Wagner
2. Dutch
3. Ceci Sheets
4. Tim King

Do you have other information?

 

[KingZzub]

Bentley WoF? That's funny...

Never seem him on the Copeland's show or preaching for Billy Joe.

Still, put them all in our camp, makes it easy to demonise us and tell us we are a bunch of whackos when all we are is people who believe God's Word above our circumstances. Makes it easier for you to ignore a message which causes you to take responsibility for your life, your tongue and your world.

 

[hislegacy]

Hello Balance,

I read somewhere on the Internet that the United States Apostolic Alliance (USAA):

1. C.Peter Wagner
2. Dutch
3. Ceci Sheets
4. Tim King

Do you have other information?

Dutch Sheets - it's as easy as googling him.


Dutch Sheets Ministries

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[Simon Peter]

I wouldn't recommend either site. The guy who runs iSola Dei Gloria is just obsessed with what is wrong with people, and has told outright lies in conversations I have had with him. He also has more than once editted my comments on his blog making it look like I was saying something different than I was.

Miriam who runs the endtimesprophetic site has cursed me before for disagreeing with her and banned someone from our church from her site who was a 1 month old Christian for not expressing themselves in theological language she liked. She wrote a comment on her blog calling me the wicked wolf. My response to it was on my blog: Benjamin is a Ravenous Wolf « Branching Out

There are other ways to get information than looking at these so-called watchdog people - you don't want to imbibe their critical, harsh spirit. You could read what was in your study, line it up with the Bible and read the Bible for yourself for example.

Ben, here you are critical and harsh with 'the guy who runs iSola Dei Gloria and Miriam who runs endtimesprophetic. So I guess you are saying it is OK to be critical of someone, but there comes a point when it crosses a line and is unacceptable?

Watchdog ministries provide the church with a great service. They provide information that many Church leaders don't want you to have. However, if that information is untrue then it does harm and is dangerous. But that's no different to a teaching ministry is it?

Simon

 

[KingZzub]

Ben, here you are critical and harsh with 'the guy who runs iSola Dei Gloria and Miriam who runs endtimesprophetic. So I guess you are saying it is OK to be critical of someone, but there comes a point when it crosses a line and is unacceptable?

If you have a website like Miriam where EVERY SINGLE POST is either an ad hominem attack on a ministry or one of her wierd and wonderful prophetic ministries then I am just saying that I would advise you stay away 100%.

The difference is that I am doing something positive with my life. I am actually doing something that is making a difference. So are most of these guys that are being torn apart by these kind of "ministries". Jude had some strong words to say about faultfinders:

These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. (Jude v. 16)

Watchdog ministries provide the church with a great service.

Why are they not in the Bible then? Why when Paul was attacked by the Judaisers did he not tell the Galatians to consult "ONLY WE HAVE THE TRUTH" ministries and read their newsletter to see who can preach and who can't. The fact is ministries like that would have Paul on their "Do Not Use" list as quick as can be for claiming to have been to heaven, seeing signs and wonders, causing controversy, suggesting that people cut their genitalia off, and being so convinced that we are free from the law.

They provide information that many Church leaders don't want you to hav

Ah, it's a conspiracy between us is it? No. One of the major lists is a couple of guys in a basement with far too much time and are not even in a church, Miriam does not attend a local church, and so on.

We had one of these cult watch groups start a Bible study in the last city I was pastoring in, and they started a Bible study slagging off all and sundry as these critical, spiteful immature people do, and left a lot of people very confused. When I saw the leaders of this group, they told me it was their responsibility to teach the people as they had the greater truth or the purer truth, I cannot remember the exact phrase.

I told them that if they had the purer truth then they should start a church. Rather than just teach the people once a week how deceived their pastor was and allow the pastor to love them ,care for them, pray for them when they are down, sick, unemployed, breaking up with their girlfriend, persecuted at work, need anointing, need encouragement, need help with a CV. I said why not get their hands dirty and actually show some love for some people and teach them stuff that is going to feed them spiritually - rather then telling people "Brother X will teach on prayer and that is dangerous", "Brother Y will teach on Bible study and that is heresy", but teach people to pray and feed from the Word themselves.

They don't teach on the positive because they cannot.

Any ass can kick a barn down. I prefer people who are building something. Even if what I think and what they think is different, I would much rather be around someone with a bit of vision and a love for Christ than a spiteful gossip with nothing good to say about anyone.

However, if that information is untrue then it does harm and is dangerous. But that's no different to a teaching ministry is it?

Simon

Except one if part of hte ministry gifts that Jesus gave to the church and one is a made up thing.

 

[Simon Peter]

Ben,

If someone uses a website to post criticism of church leaders that is true and accurate, I have no problem with that at all.

The Church should be thankful for the information.

I won't respond to the many issues of your post, because it seemed to turn into a 'rant', where you are doing exactly what you are complaining about...

peace,
Simon

 

[KingZzub]

You are entitled to your point of view, Simon, and I respect that.

It is not a rant, it is a heartfelt desire to protect the body of Christ from a group of people that do things that are not mentioned in Scripture, have no accountability at all, normally have no theological training, and think nothing of saying things that angels would never say.

 

[Simon Peter]

Bentley WoF? That's funny...

Sorry to disappoint you Ben, but Todd Bentley is Word of Faith.

But don’t take it from me, here it is in his own words:

1.
“Todd tell me one of the ministries that has really impacted you?

One of the greatest apostles of faith…and this man was such an example to me…not the only but one of the early influences in my life…his name was Kenneth Hagin” -Todd Bentley


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6brzymQlMZE

2. Fresh Fire Website:
Todd had not been spiritually born into, or grown up in a religious church environment. The first Christian book he had read was "Good Morning Holy Spirit" by Benny Hinn. –http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=103&pid=8

3. Todd Bentley:
“Let me give you a little background. I was impacted years ago, and first introduced to this kind of intimacy, through the ministries of Benny Hinn and Kathryn Kuhlman. They opened the way for me to go beyond the power of God’s Spirit, the gifts or any kind of experience like the baptism of the Holy Spirit.” -Todd Bentley
http://reformedevangelist.com/?tag=todd-bentley



4. Todd Bentley:
The same goes for poverty. Poverty is death. Look. Any kind of oppression in your life, any kind of torment, any kind of depression—it’s the work of the devil—and it is defeated because death no longer has dominion!
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=239&pid=954&bid=955

5. Todd Bentley:
Being God’s servant means there is an authority available to us under or in the anointing, that in the moment we decree “favor” or just say the word “favor” over someone’s life (in the anointing), they have to come into favor! I want to emphasize “under or in the anointing” because it’s in moments of an open heaven, when there’s a realm of the spirit, that we can make decrees that change destinies through the spoken word.
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=235&bid=

 

[KingZzub]

That's your case he is word of faith.

He is no more word of faith than I am a Mormon. I might say some things Mormons say, I might say that Joseph Smith has been a huge influence on my life, I might have read a Mormon book (I would contest that Benny Hinn is a Word of Faith preacher personally, but I like Benny and I love his ministry and don't want to start a fight over him) but that doesn't make me a Mormon!

Is he:

1) in regularly attendance at a Word of Faith church?
2) ordained by a Word of Faith ministry or organisation?
3) in fellowship with any Word of Faith ministry? I only saw the Toronto crowd at the back of his meetings.

That might make me more convinced.

 

[Simon Peter]

You are entitled to your point of view, Simon, and I respect that.

It is not a rant, it is a heartfelt desire to protect the body of Christ from a group of people that do things that are not mentioned in Scripture, have no accountability at all, normally have no theological training, and think nothing of saying things that angels would never say.

Ben, I am not questioning your allegiance to the body of Christ.

I am saying that many of the 'watchmen' you criticise also have a heartfelt passion for the purity of the Bride. You disagree with things they say - as I do - but don't question their motives.

Oh, and many of them do have theological training, just as you do.

As for criticism in the Scriptures, it's found throughout the Bible. The OT prophets were known for their constant negative criticism. But you must know that...

The NT is not much different, where most books contain biting criticism of one sort or another, and it's the leaders who are singled out for the harshest criticism.


peace,
Simon

 

[KingZzub]

The New Testament was written by people planting churches, working miracles and pastoring people. Not a couple of guys in their basement with a cheap video camera and a youtube account.

Example - this week our Senior Pastor is coming to preach at our church. He has planted several churches and has seen a mini-revival in his area recently with about 30 people born again in one service and many, many healings.

When he comes if he says Ben, sort this part of your life and church out now, I will listen to him, just like I would listen to Paul.

But these self-appointed people with no relationship with the body of Christ, no fruit to their ministry... no thanks.

I am struggling to see why you think these two things are similar.

 

[Faulty]

As a general rule, I find its best to stay clear of any member of the New Apostolic Reformation group. As for Sheets personally, I believe he was one of the participants on stage during the coronation of Todd Bentley during the Lakeland Circus and Music Show. To me, that is a real indicator of if he can discern truth from a lie.

 

[Simon Peter]

Is he:

1) in regularly attendance at a Word of Faith church?
2) ordained by a Word of Faith ministry or organisation?
3) in fellowship with any Word of Faith ministry? I only saw the Toronto crowd at the back of his meetings.

These are new!

You should use these in the WoF forum statement of faith.

Your WoF forum would be down to handful of members overnight.


Bentley holds WoF beliefs. The evidence speaks for itself.

As for his professional affliations, just be thankful he's caught up with the Apostolic crowd.


Simon

 

[KingZzub]

No, some of what he says might match what I say. A lot of what he says would match what you say as well. It doesn't suddenly make him a Baptist or Anglican because he believes in water baptism and a church with a hierarchy, does it?

 

[Simon Peter]

The New Testament was written by people planting churches, working miracles and pastoring people. Not a couple of guys in their basement with a cheap video camera and a youtube account.

...

I am struggling to see why you think these two things are similar.

hmmm...so what you're saying is, that unless a ministry looks a lot/somewhat/identical to a Biblical ministry, then it's invalid?

You have also insulted a lot of the Lord's ministries, who use cheap equipment, and sometimes even internet accounts to go about His business.

Don't bash ministries because they are poor, or small, or seemingly insignificant. These are often the ones on whom God's favour rests.

peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

No, some of what he says might match what I say. A lot of what he says would match what you say as well. It doesn't suddenly make him a Baptist or Anglican because he believes in water baptism and a church with a hierarchy, does it?

errr No. What Bentley says does not match what I say.

Bentley adheres to a WoF point of view, not a non-WoF point of view.

 

[KingZzub]

hmmm...so what you're saying is, that unless a ministry looks a lot/somewhat/identical to a Biblical ministry, then it's invalid?

You have also insulted a lot of the Lord's ministries, who use cheap equipment, and sometimes even internet accounts to go about His business.

Don't bash ministries because they are poor, or small, or seemingly insignificant. These are often the ones on whom God's favour rests.

peace,
Simon

You have missed my point here, which is probably due to my inability to communicate clearly, so let me elaborate and clarify.

I am not against a couple of guys in a basement doing something for God.

If they are feeding the homeless, healing the sick, preaching the Word then great. We had just 3 people in our first service, and we record our services with a mobile phone and our worship songs involve a laptop that is literally in 4 pieces held together with sticky tape.

What I am opposed to is people who have borne no fruit - no lives changed, no people being set free due to the truths they have preached - whose ENTIRE ministry is fault finding. That is not right. The fact that many of them have achieved nothing of any heavenly use is just proof that they are doing the wrong thing.

You might not think it important that there are no watchdog ministries in the Bible, it matters to me. I will never be starting one, nor will I sponsor one.