Drive for Atheists?

[DrunkenWrestler]

Purpose is not necessary for existence. Life is pretty much what you make of it.

 

[Knarf188]

Ahem:
Source.
Crucified Sorts
Tammuz of Mesopotamia 1160 BC.
Iao of Nepal 622 BC.
Hesus of the Celtic Druids 834 BC.
Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.
More are at the link.

Thanx for the link man... I will have to research that... what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger right =)... but the OT is written before many of those crucifictions... And while some of those Gods might fullfill some of the prophecies they by no means fulfill all of them...

If they see fit, yes. Although that doesn't mean I won't see their "good-to-them" actions as "bad-to-me" and reciprocate in my own little way.

I do no drugs, have no sex, and happen to not accept a god. Somehow, that doesn't seem like enough for some people. Would it help to know I'm also a pacifist whom wishes free healthcare on all and doesn't wish to have any relationships either? Who knows. Your god may do whatever it wishes, until it is shown to do anything in any factual manner, I'll continue to not need a reason to go along with your deital creations.

From reading your website (which is very long... but more power to you for seeking the truth=)... You do no drugs 'yet', and have no sex 'yet' haha...
Why do you wish for free health care? Just curious? Is it for your own benefit or for others...My God desires for you to love him, as he loves you...
What do you feel about the prayer that was answered that I mentioned in my earlier post? Is this not enough factual information?

Your loving god is nothing to the love one can feel in life in any manner of fashion, and until your god stops giving comfort to those that fear death and hope to those who know life is all you get, I'll follow what I've found most reasonable. You do the same.

Again from reading your website it seems as though you do not desire to be loved, You state "This is me. Love isn't part of my life, it's parasitic human behavior that is more degrading to the human psyche than anything else. Lose love, learn more. Gain love, only live to keep it alive. It's idiotic."
Therefore how do you know what it means to be loved, or acquire a love that surpasses 'my loving God' ... I don't understand.. could you elaborate?

Care all you like, I merely wish to answer the inquiries asked of me or of those I am similar to. No offense taken but I happen to state my honest opinion without holding back, in truth.
Dyrwen

Well thankyou for not holding back... I did not mean to inquire that you did drugs, sex, alcohol whatever... but that you were satisfying your needs/desires... From your website, it seems as though you like to please others... by helping them out, instead of focusing on your problems... am I wrong... did you know that is the second greatest commandment to love your neighbor as yourself... is that innate? just curious...
In Christ(and TRUTH =),
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

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Are we talking about morality or purpose? Purpose is purpose, whether good or evil (which are socially constructed concepts to beghin with. You can chose to have good or evil purpose.

Alright I am going to try to explain this... just a thought.... Good and Evil were socially constructed concepts... but did not man together make society... therefore it was manmade... but were did these man made concepts come from, maybe from an innate entity...could it be?
In Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

Purpose is not necessary for existence. Life is pretty much what you make of it.

Would you be saying that if you were starving in Africa?
Just Curious..
In CHrist,
Frank

 

[Vylo]

Alright I am going to try to explain this... just a thought.... Good and Evil were socially constructed concepts... but did not man together make society... therefore it was manmade... but were did these man made concepts come from, maybe from an innate entity...could it be?
In Christ,
Frank

If they came from an innate entity, then people would be innately religious, but this is not the case. Any individual seperated from society will not develop a religious structure or belief system, it has been shown in past studies. Of course these are now highly unethical as being seperated from society also stunts social growth.

 

[Knarf188]

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If they came from an innate entity, then people would be innately religious, but this is not the case. Any individual seperated from society will not develop a religious structure or belief system, it has been shown in past studies. Of course these are now highly unethical as being seperated from society also stunts social growth.

Innately religious.... of all the tribal groups I know, not ONE of them is an atheists group....and they are seperated from the whiteman...
In Christ,
Frank

 

[Dyrwen]

<Much anger is right here.> I'll reply to this when I get home. Tried and wrote a good reply, hit a button, and away it went.

I shall edit this later with a reply...

 

[Vylo]

Innately religious.... of all the tribal groups I know, not ONE of them is an atheists group....and they are seperated from the whiteman...
In Christ,
Frank

This is an example of what is known as ethnocentrism (I'm not making fun of you, we all do this to some degree). Ethnocentrism is when we assume that our society is better or more just then those around us, or that we have some good quality that they don't. Notice my wording though, those tribes are societies too. You are not separated from society if you are part of them, you are simply a part of a different societies. Humans separated from ALL societies do not develop religious beliefs. Note this means no society, 0, none, no tribe, no family, no friends. At best you have a teacher that you never see (this has occurred).

White man does not constitute society as a whole, our society is relatively new in comparsion to those in africa, the middle east, and asia, and we certainly just caught up to them in hygiene relatively recently.

 

[Nathan David]

Hey Hi Nathan =),
Guilty of what? why would you feel guilty? If there is no purpose to life... there should be no guilt because it is all random...

That doesn't follow. Guilt is a feeling. I don't have a whole lot of control over what my feelings are, and they don't depend on whether life has a purpose or not. I suspect I feel guilt because of my upbringing and that pre-disposition towards empathy I talked about.

actually you said you live to enjoy life... so is enjoying life the purpose of life??

Enjoying life is part of my purpose in life. So is feeling satisfied and fulfilled. I don't usually think of my life having a purpose, though, so it's hard for me to think of it in those terms.

Where does 'just' come from... if it is all relative to the society then what defines 'just'

I'm not sure it's relative to society. It's a human concept, for sure - it comes out of our brains. But just because a concept comes out of our brains doesn't mean it has no meaning, or that it can take on any meaning at all. Justice usually means people getting what they deserve - people who hurt others in their community get excluded from that community (one way or another); people who contribute to the community should receive some benefits from it, whereas people who do not contribute should not.

 

[MediocrityInAction]

Would you be saying that if you were starving in Africa?
Just Curious..
In CHrist,
Frank

I would. Purpose is not necessary for existence. Life is pretty much what you make of it. You can only make of it what you can.

 

[vajradhara]

Hey man...
Thankyou for replying so quickly and bringing it down to my lower uneducated level , haha...
So you believe in works... but how do you attain heaven? Do your good works have to outweigh your bad deeds/or do you have to be perfect (both which seem impossible to me =)...
May I ask why you turned away from Christianity... for I believe I read somewhere that you did turn away from it...
Matter is energy and Energy is Matter... are you not just saying the same thing... its like saying H20 is water and water is H2O... maybe that is what you were trying to get across haha...
In Christ,
Frank

Namaste Frank,

remember... the Buddhist ideal is not to attain heaven or anything of the sort. in point of fact, we consider heaven and heavenly beings to be impermenant as well. so... that's not what it's about. the point isn't to be focused on some reward in the future.. the point is to be focused on what is happening at this very moment.

it's not so much the actual action that is important... it's the movtivation and intention behind it that creates karma. thus, we strive to have more good intentions that bad intentions regardless of the actual action undertaken. perfect is simply an imputation of the mind and has no actual basis in reality... as you've so rightly surmized.

it's rather like that, yes, though water can be ice, steam or liquid... whilst H2O never distinguishes between those various forms, it's always H2O no matter the form it takes.

as for why i turned away.. not too put you off, though its rather long and i've already posted it in this forum before. it's a bit tough to find as this forum has a lot of activity! if you are really interested in my story, you can find it at the www.comparative-religion.com introduction forum.

 

[Knarf188]

[/size][/font]

This is an example of what is known as ethnocentrism (I'm not making fun of you, we all do this to some degree). Ethnocentrism is when we assume that our society is better or more just then those around us, or that we have some good quality that they don't. Notice my wording though, those tribes are societies too. You are not separated from society if you are part of them, you are simply a part of a different societies. Humans separated from ALL societies do not develop religious beliefs. Note this means no society, 0, none, no tribe, no family, no friends. At best you have a teacher that you never see (this has occurred).

White man does not constitute society as a whole, our society is relatively new in comparsion to those in africa, the middle east, and asia, and we certainly just caught up to them in hygiene relatively recently.

My apologies Vylo... I did not want to constitute an ethnocentric point of view... I am no bigot ... I guess I classified 'Whiteman' as an outsider... such during imperialism in the 19th century... I by no means meant to point out ones superiority to another...
I was just showing that when left alone this , sub-society, makes a religion... to argue that it is innately in us... for it is seen in many cut-off sub-societies ... it does not necessarily have to mean a human alone on an island...
In Christ,
Frank(The Biggot )

 

[Knarf188]

That doesn't follow. Guilt is a feeling. I don't have a whole lot of control over what my feelings are, and they don't depend on whether life has a purpose or not. I suspect I feel guilt because of my upbringing and that pre-disposition towards empathy I talked about.


Enjoying life is part of my purpose in life. So is feeling satisfied and fulfilled. I don't usually think of my life having a purpose, though, so it's hard for me to think of it in those terms.


I'm not sure it's relative to society. It's a human concept, for sure - it comes out of our brains. But just because a concept comes out of our brains doesn't mean it has no meaning, or that it can take on any meaning at all. Justice usually means people getting what they deserve - people who hurt others in their community get excluded from that community (one way or another); people who contribute to the community should receive some benefits from it, whereas people who do not contribute should not.

Hi Nathan...
Thankyou for your reply.... Haha it gets harder to reply to things that do not make sense to me...
A question though, because justice comes from our brains, could it be innate?
I did ask you for what your purpose was in the beginning... so thankyou for replying... I am sorry I cannot reply to things I do not understand, such as life without a purpose... Though Take Kare and God Bless...
In Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

Namaste Frank,

remember... the Buddhist ideal is not to attain heaven or anything of the sort. in point of fact, we consider heaven and heavenly beings to be impermenant as well. so... that's not what it's about. the point isn't to be focused on some reward in the future.. the point is to be focused on what is happening at this very moment.

it's not so much the actual action that is important... it's the movtivation and intention behind it that creates karma. thus, we strive to have more good intentions that bad intentions regardless of the actual action undertaken. perfect is simply an imputation of the mind and has no actual basis in reality... as you've so rightly surmized.

it's rather like that, yes, though water can be ice, steam or liquid... whilst H2O never distinguishes between those various forms, it's always H2O no matter the form it takes.

as for why i turned away.. not too put you off, though its rather long and i've already posted it in this forum before. it's a bit tough to find as this forum has a lot of activity! if you are really interested in my story, you can find it at the www.comparative-religion.com introduction forum.

Hello,
Thankyou for your reply... I do find it interesting...
So My karma is defined by the 'actions' I do... hence bad karma = bad actions outweighing my good actions / good karma = good actions outweighing my bad actions? Do you define action as something tangible or can it also be somethinig from my mind/heart... like lusting in the heart ... but not acting on it? is that bad karma or is it good karma because I did not act? For if it derives from the heart you will never attain, or at least I wouldnt, attain a good karma... for even when I will to do what is righteous I do what is wrong...
Another Question... if perfection is an ideal... which is not relative... but never attainable why try to reach it? Do you not call it enlightnment... if you cannot attain what you are striving to reach, what purpose is there? (Maybe I am assuming to much)...
But thankyou again for your reply... and I will check out your testimony... Take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

I would. Purpose is not necessary for existence. Life is pretty much what you make of it. You can only make of it what you can.

What can you make of it if you have nothing, no family, no water, no food, no shelter? In an unjust world (unjustice > justice/ Evil > Good) there has to be some hope for them man... or why not just end their misery ( no offense meant )...Take kare and God Bless...
In Christ,
Frank

 

[vajradhara]

Hello,
Thankyou for your reply... I do find it interesting...
So My karma is defined by the 'actions' I do... hence bad karma = bad actions outweighing my good actions / good karma = good actions outweighing my bad actions? Do you define action as something tangible or can it also be somethinig from my mind/heart... like lusting in the heart ... but not acting on it? is that bad karma or is it good karma because I did not act? For if it derives from the heart you will never attain, or at least I wouldnt, attain a good karma... for even when I will to do what is righteous I do what is wrong...
Another Question... if perfection is an ideal... which is not relative... but never attainable why try to reach it? Do you not call it enlightnment... if you cannot attain what you are striving to reach, what purpose is there? (Maybe I am assuming to much)...
But thankyou again for your reply... and I will check out your testimony... Take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

Namaste Frank,

close... your karma is determined by the intention and motivation that is behind the action, not strictly the action itself. does that make sense?

actions are defined as thoughts, words and deeds.

we don't try to reach "perfection". that word is basically nonsensical from the Buddhist point of view. Nirvana literally means "blowing out". what that term refers to is the cessation of conceptualization and discursive thought which then allows the mind to rest in it's own, intrinsic nature.

let me give you an example of an action that can produce either positive or negative karma:

there is an older person that requires assistance to cross the road.

you assist.

your assistance, by it self, would be neutral. if you inteded to help the older person across the street to then rob them, the result would be negative karma, even though you did help them cross the street. whereas, if you were helping them because of a compassionate intention, it would produce good karma.

 

[Knarf188]

Namaste Frank,

close... your karma is determined by the intention and motivation that is behind the action, not strictly the action itself. does that make sense?

actions are defined as thoughts, words and deeds.

we don't try to reach "perfection". that word is basically nonsensical from the Buddhist point of view. Nirvana literally means "blowing out". what that term refers to is the cessation of conceptualization and discursive thought which then allows the mind to rest in it's own, intrinsic nature.

let me give you an example of an action that can produce either positive or negative karma:

there is an older person that requires assistance to cross the road.

you assist.

your assistance, by it self, would be neutral. if you inteded to help the older person across the street to then rob them, the result would be negative karma, even though you did help them cross the street. whereas, if you were helping them because of a compassionate intention, it would produce good karma.

Hmmm,
I believe that no one can ever cease the ramblings in your head(cessation of conceptualization and discursive)... to go to a quiet place... it seems impossible... just like attaining perfection... but I did read that someone did... forgot his name, my apologies... were there witnesses to this occassion... what after you attain enlightnment, is he still alive? or do you just pass? his purpose is completed... does that mean game over? Just curious...
I do agree with motivation though... it is very similar to Christ teachings...
Take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

 

[vajradhara]

Hmmm,
I believe that no one can ever cease the ramblings in your head(cessation of conceptualization and discursive)... to go to a quiet place... it seems impossible... just like attaining perfection... but I did read that someone did... forgot his name, my apologies... were there witnesses to this occassion... what after you attain enlightnment, is he still alive? or do you just pass? his purpose is completed... does that mean game over? Just curious...
I do agree with motivation though... it is very similar to Christ teachings...
Take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

Namaste frank,

many people believe that.. however, they are mistaken. it is quite possible to still the mind if one has the right techniques to do so. much like anything in life.. it takes practice and knowledge to be skillful at it.

enlightenment isn't a different state of being, per se.. so yes, they are still alive and function as you would expect a human to. actually.. once one has achieved enlightenment (i know, i know... let's leave that for now, shall we?) their purpose really begins!

for it is only then that one can really and truly start to benefit the multitude of sentient beings.

there are many similar aspects between Buddhism and Christianity. If you wouldn't mind my making a literature suggestion.. there are two very good books on this very thing... The Good Heart which is His Holiness the Dalai Lama explaining how a Buddhist would veiw some of the teachings of Jesus.. things like the Sermon on the Mount and so forth. the other is called Living Buddha, Living Christ (Jesus and Buddha as brothers) by Thich Nhat Hanh.

both of these books will present Buddhist information to you through the paradigm of Christian teaching. they are quite good for getting a basic understanding of the sameness of the two traditions.

 

[Knarf188]

Namaste frank,

many people believe that.. however, they are mistaken. it is quite possible to still the mind if one has the right techniques to do so. much like anything in life.. it takes practice and knowledge to be skillful at it.

enlightenment isn't a different state of being, per se.. so yes, they are still alive and function as you would expect a human to. actually.. once one has achieved enlightenment (i know, i know... let's leave that for now, shall we?) their purpose really begins!

for it is only then that one can really and truly start to benefit the multitude of sentient beings.

there are many similar aspects between Buddhism and Christianity. If you wouldn't mind my making a literature suggestion.. there are two very good books on this very thing... The Good Heart which is His Holiness the Dalai Lama explaining how a Buddhist would veiw some of the teachings of Jesus.. things like the Sermon on the Mount and so forth. the other is called Living Buddha, Living Christ (Jesus and Buddha as brothers) by Thich Nhat Hanh.

both of these books will present Buddhist information to you through the paradigm of Christian teaching. they are quite good for getting a basic understanding of the sameness of the two traditions.

Awesome, thankyou for the reads.. I will have to check those out... right now I am getting swamped with texts haha, because it is the beginning of college =)...

I have a couple of questions if you do not mind answering...

How do you feel about answered prayers/miracles?

While one might have an overweighing of Good deeds hence Good karma... the fact remains that their still is bad karma inside the person... evil thoughts... an evil nature... to remove that nature would be perfection... so while one might have a good karma, you are still considered evil/hypocrite for no one is perfect....hence to say that as long as you outweigh the bad, you are good seems kind of not-possible...

Also where is your testimony from the link... I can't seem to find it...
Take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

 

[Vylo]

Knarf: Religion is not innate in human beings, but it does appear to be an innate trait of culture and societies. Religion is a social construct, and one that I personally feel, must be important to at least the formation and preservation of new societies. Whether or not a society can evolve to the point where it does not need religion remains to be seen, and I disagree with many atheists that think the world would be a better place if religion were to be extinguished.