Drinking alcohol

[KingZzub]

I think the sin of whine is a far more serious sin than the sin of wine.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[PastorJoey]

Thats a very interesting(although somewhat mysterious verse).thank you for citing that one,J4Jesus !! can anyone explain the meaning of that verse further?

Also,Godown has an interesting point in one of the verses he cites.The master of ceremonies said the bridegroom had saved the best wine for last.the bible doesn't say that these folks were all believers,so i'm assuming this wine could have been the stuff they very well could become drunk on.

i just think we need to be very wise and open to the leading of The Holy Spirit towards alcohol in any form.

And we know darn well we shouldn't be getting drunk with it.

I dont believe that the wine Jesus made by miracle was fermented. We dont have scripture and verse that states that it was or wasnt fermented.This is only my opinion based on what I believe the Word teaches concerning alcohol in general.

I believe that these men were referring to the taste of the wine, not its alcoholic content. After all it was supernatural wine! There would be none like it on Earth.

Wine is and always has been judged by its taste.

If they were referring to the intoxication they experienced it was due to the anointing on the wine.

They were mabye experiencing the same sensations those on the day of Pentecost did when Peter said, "These are not drunk as ye suppose.....".

Because of these reasonable possibilities I personally couldnt use this passage of scripture to justify my drinking of alcohol, escpecially with the 50 plus verses that directly forbid it.

My opinion or anyone elses shouldnt hinder someone of a different opinion. We all must walk out our own salvation with fear & trembling.

 

[God_Owned]

I think the sin of whine is a far more serious sin than the sin of wine.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

I wasn't aware that Jesus sinned when He drank wine.

 

[PastorJoey]

Thats a very interesting(although somewhat mysterious verse).thank you for citing that one,J4Jesus !! can anyone explain the meaning of that verse further?

Also,Godown has an interesting point in one of the verses he cites.The master of ceremonies said the bridegroom had saved the best wine for last.the bible doesn't say that these folks were all believers,so i'm assuming this wine could have been the stuff they very well could become drunk on.

i just think we need to be very wise and open to the leading of The Holy Spirit towards alcohol in any form.

And we know darn well we shouldn't be getting drunk with it.

This verse that J4 used:

Proverbs 23:31-32 KJV
(31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
(32) At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

When wine begins to give color and begins to bubble & foam [move itself aright] this is signs of fermentation.

Proverbs teaches not to look at wine. At first it seems good and fine "but at the last it stings like a highly venomous snake".

 

[lyonguard]

At one time Bob Yandian taught that wine was ok to drink - although he suggested that you don't do it because it could ruin your witness and offend other believers. I don't know if he still holds that position or not. Kenneth Copeland teaches that you shouldn't drink all. Even the current WOF leaders don't seem to agree.

 

[God_Owned]

I dont believe that the wine Jesus made by miracle was fermented. We dont have scripture and verse that states that it was or wasnt fermented.This is only my opinion based on what I believe the Word teaches concerning alcohol in general.

I have no clue how you came to your conclusion except this is just something you want to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Do you think that the Governor of the feast was referring to grape juice when he was talking about saving the best wine, that is the wine that Jesus made, for last? Do you really think he meant to say save the best grape juice for last. They saved the worst wine for last because people lost their ability to distinguish between good and bad wine once they were drunk.

I believe that these men were referring to the taste of the wine, not its alcoholic content. After all it was supernatural wine! There would be none like it on Earth.

I missed it, where did it say it was a supernatural wine. It says Jesus made wine and they drank it. If the wine was made of the spiritual substance of heaven, it would have killed the sinners drinking it. This is why God had to curse the ground, so the fallen Adam could walk on it and remain alive.

Wine is and always has been judged by its taste.

So these guys were just wine testers, not drinkers.

If they were referring to the intoxication they experienced it was due to the anointing on the wine.

..and you concluded all this how?

They were mabye experiencing the same sensations those on the day of Pentecost did when Peter said, "These are not drunk as ye suppose.....".

This is even more humorous than your last statement. So you think attendees at the feat were receiving the Holy Ghost by drinking the wine? Kina tough since they hadn't been born-again as had those in the upper room.

Because of these reasonable possibilities I personally couldnt use this passage of scripture to justify my drinking of alcohol, escpecially with the 50 plus verses that directly forbid it.

Reasonable explanations?

My opinion or anyone elses shouldnt hinder someone of a different opinion. We all must walk out our own salvation with fear & trembling.

You are entitled to you opinion, but when you state it for others consumption, you might expect a few challenges.

 

[God_Owned]

This verse that J4 used:

Proverbs 23:31-32 KJV
(31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
(32) At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

When wine begins to give color and begins to bubble & foam [move itself aright] this is signs of fermentation.

Proverbs teaches not to look at wine. At first it seems good and fine "but at the last it stings like a highly venomous snake".

This is talking about stopping your drinking when you start to become intoxicated.

Proverbs 23:31-32 AMP
31 Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the wineglass, when it goes down smoothly.
32 At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.

Now what about all the rest of the verses I asked you to directly address?

 

[Tcelt12]

It still tastes like nail polish remover...my advice is switch to Irish whiskey if it's taste you're after..(burp...).

 

[God_Owned]

The reason this seems to be a sore spot with is simple. I don't care if you drink wine or not. What I'm in pursuit of is the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth! To that end I make the following seven points.

1. Integrity. We are to pursue the Truth in the Word, not our own personal agenda.

People error when they subvert the interpretation of the Word because of personal desires, beliefs, attitudes, experiences or for any reason whatsoever. If you will subvert the Word in one area to suit your personal, or your Church's, religious agenda and/or doctrine, then why should I trust you in any other area?

Take drinking as an example. You may not like drinking wine, or like being around it, or you may have seen alcoholism ruin the lives of millions, but that doesn't change the Word. What would you do if Jesus offered you a glass of wine for communion? Would you refuse it? Why should I trust anyone who'd deny what is clear in the New Testament, like drinking wine.

2. Enslaving others to my personal agenda and/or like and dislikes in direct conflict with the Holy Ghost.

We are not to restrict or burden people beyond what the Holy Ghost teaches us in the Word. This is the case with those who try to burden others with their personal opinions, even to the point of compelling them not to take Communion as Jesus took and gave it. These same people would discourage people for drinking wine for their health's sake, even though Jesus recommended it.

Acts 15:28-30
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

oi\noß Oinos (oy'-nos);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3631

1. wine
2. metaph. fiery wine of God's wrath

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

3. Judging others with unrighteousness judgment.

If we judge that drinking wine is a sin for people, then we have judged Jesus to have sinned when He drank wine.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

oijnopovthß Oinopotes (oy-nop-ot'-ace);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3630

1. a winebibber, given to wine, a wino

4. Not doing something about being weak in faith.

People who don't drink wine, and judge those who do, think they are strong in faith, when in fact they are the ones who are as weak in faith as vegetations judge those who eat meat. Interesting that I've yet to be in any Church that discourages eating meat for the sake of vegetarians. I've never even heard much preaching on obesity, even though it is ranked well above alcohol consumption for contribution to premature deaths. Many of these who are weak in faith fancy themselves leader in the Body of Christ.

Romans 14:1-3 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

It is for the weak's sake that we don't talk about drinking wine in Church and it is the weak that condemn it people for drinking wine, but we error when we over compensate for the weak by refusing to give communion as Jesus instructed or taking wine for our health as Jesus instructed.. This is why most will only drink their wine at home. Maybe those who are weak in faith might try to grow up a little.

Romans 14:20-22 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he allowed.



5. Drinking wine didn't stop Jesus from doing miracles, even for those who were very weak in faith, so today, how weak in faith does that make those who condemn others for drinking wine.

John 4:46, 49-50
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

6. Exactly why are some so critical food or drink, when it has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


7. The bottom line is that I needn't be concerned about erroneous judgments of religious folk.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[msbojingles]

Don't hold back now, just tell us how you really feel!!



Seriously though, regardless of what man's opinion may be regarding drinking or any other subject for that matter - the only thing that is truly relevant is the Truth of God's Word.

Prophesies shall pass away, even wisdom shall pass away, but Truth will remain - for it is truly LIVING, POWERFUL, sharper than any two edged sword. It is when our opinion no longer exists, but Truth remains that we are truly free. "You shall KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free.

 

[God_Owned]

Don't hold back now, just tell us how you really feel!!

Seriously though, regardless of what man's opinion may be regarding drinking or any other subject for that matter - the only thing that is truly relevant is the Truth of God's Word.


Prophesies shall pass away, even wisdom shall pass away, but Truth will remain - for it is truly LIVING, POWERFUL, sharper than any two edged sword. It is when our opinion no longer exists, but Truth remains that we are truly free. "You shall KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free.[/quote]



That's a good word!

 

[KingZzub]

We have no evidence that Jesus was a "winebibber", just that the Pharisees called him one. They were not a people known for their fanatical devotion to the facts when it came to that carpenter from the village.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[God_Owned]

We have no evidence that Jesus was a "winebibber", just that the Pharisees called him one. They were not a people known for their fanatical devotion to the facts when it came to that carpenter from the village.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

They called Jesus a winebibber because they wanted to accuse him of being a drunkard. Jesus drank wine and we know this because He said He came drinking when referring to the winebibber accusation. Jesus comment would not relate to the winebibber accusation unless Jesus was talking about fermented wine.

You know, if most Christians had as hard a time of dealing with the concept of salvation as they seem to have of honestly dealing with the fact Jesus drank wine, very few would ever be saved.

 

[KingZzub]

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest, Godsown. The facts are simple: alcohol leads to a whole range of negatives, but nothing in the way of positives.

To attribute impure motives to people who disagree with you when there is no evidence of disingenuity is not particularly fair.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[God_Owned]

To attribute impure motives to people who disagree with you when there is no evidence of disingenuity is not particularly fair.

Such evidence is self-evidend when someone denies what is written in plain English in the Word. I will offer more on people motives later in this writing.

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest, Godsown. The facts are simple: alcohol leads to a whole range of negatives, but nothing in the way of positives.

I don't attempt to speak for others, not having any idea what is really in their hearts but I say the following in answer to you Sir.

First of all you really are served my need for a good laugh this morning.

There are health benefits to fermented win.e You have been provided the information which you have chosen to ignore. You can Google the subject and find plenty of health reasons to drink fermented wine.

Also, what you're saying must be false, unless...

...there is a glaring error King James Bible. The Word seems clear in 1 Timothy 5:23, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

...Jesus was setting a bad example for uses to something that would harm us in Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

...was in error when He gave the wedding party wine in John 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine...

And in that same town where Jesus turned the water into wine, which everyone would have known about, people still believed in him to miracles John 4:46, 49-50

...And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

Cars have killed millions. Do you drive? There is overwhelming evidence that eating abuses cause far more deaths than fermented wine. Do you eat? Have you ever fed, and over fed, an obese person?
You may not understand this being located where you are, but Americans, who understand the freedoms the U.S. Constitution entitles us to, knows that we don't outlaw guns because they can be used to do murder. We do not outlaw the eating of food because a huge number of people are committing slow suicide by over eating. We allow people to make their own choices as long as they do not threaten others society and when they do, hopefully the law is enforced and legal action is taken against the individual.

When a drunken driver kills someone, we don't lock up the bottle of wine he was drinking, or the person who made the wine, we lock up the drunk. Guns, food and wine are not the issue, but rather personal conduct. In a socialistic society laws are made by reason of how various activities affect society, like if too many are getting drunk, we will just out law alcohol as we did during Prohibition, which only served to enrich organized crime. A just society holds the person responsible for their actions.
I see the problem as two fold when accepting what the Bible really says about drinking wine.
1. Socialism has managed to root itself in the body of Christ and needs to rooted out via preaching the Truth.

2. Many Christians sin on a regular basis and by so doing prove that the mind is still full of lies and needs to be cleansed.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?

Yes there are lies being told in the Church.

Lie one, Jesus did not make wine, drink wine, teach us to take wine at communion and His Word states clearly that wine has certain healing properties. Lie two, it is the wine and not the person that is responsible for their actions. Lie three, the Church, for the good of others, should condemn, and teach others to condemn, the drinking of fermented wine and those who use wine as the Word instructs . This same concept of doing something for the greater social good is the same argument that the religious types of Jesus' day used to put Jesus to death. Lie four, it is the will of God to place more restrictions and burdens on people that he states in the New Covenant, like restricting people from drinking wine. Of course these four lies foster even more lying to try to make these lies appear to be true, but what is really important here is the lying itself.


Zzub, rather than you usual one or two line quips, to impress me you will have to do two things. One, directly address the scriptures I provided you throughout this thread. Two, quit blaming the wine and start putting the responsibility where it belongs, on the person. People can decide why (if at all) what, when, where and how much to drink. I've not seen any responsibility placed on the individual here. What I have seen is the condemnation of Christians who drink wine in accordance with God's Word, which is responsibly.


The balls in your court. Teach me from the Word all that you know my Brother!

 

[lismore]

The facts are simple: alcohol leads to a whole range of negatives, but nothing in the way of positives.

God's word recommends drinking wine:

1 Timothy 5:23 NIV
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Its good for you if you have a little bit.

Also for tithing the bible says to have 'fermented drink' if you wish.

Deuteronomy 14:
Tithes

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

 

[God_Owned]

God's word recommends drinking wine:

1 Timothy 5:23 NIV
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Its good for you if you have a little bit.

Also for tithing the bible says to have 'fermented drink' if you wish.

Deuteronomy 14:
Tithes

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

Great point Brother!

 

[Trish1947]

I find nothing in scripture that says that wine is sinful. I do however find that the state of drunkeness is wrong. Gluttony is wrong, but we don't say that food is wrong. But here's the thing, personally I will never try to convience someone of what is acceptable or not acceptable in a persons life, unless clearly stated in scripture, because we are dealing with someone elses consciousness about the matter. For the one that has consciousness about it, it would be a sin to them. Anything that might interfere with a persons fellowship in the Spirit is what we are to consider.

 

[God_Owned]

I find nothing in scripture that says that wine is sinful. I do however find that the state of drunkeness is wrong. Gluttony is wrong, but we don't say that food is wrong. But here's the thing, personally I will never try to convience someone of what is acceptable or not acceptable in a persons life, unless clearly stated in scripture, because we are dealing with someone elses consciousness about the matter. For the one that has consciousness about it, it would be a sin to them. Anything that might interfere with a persons fellowship in the Spirit is what we are to consider.

You know, that was good!