Double Predestination acceptable...

[returntosender]

The "tulip thing" is Calvinism. It's just a quick way to explain it. Unconditional election, do you understand what that means? God picks some for salvation and leaves the rest to damnation for no reason we can comprehend. Does that sound like the gospel? Does that sound like "whosoever will"?

There are many posts on this very thread that speak on those that are condemned and those that aren't. Isn't that predestination. I know the tulip thing is Calvinism. That doesn't mean I understand it.
You're funny!

 

[Clare73]

It's a bible verse that might support your contention. Suggests that all the works have been complete since the beginning. What we are experiencing could just be the playing out of God's plan, like a movie that is running. One minister I talked to about it once suggested the universe could be just a matrix like in the movie Matrix.
Hebrews 4:3 - For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Referring to God's creation work, God's rest being full-time from his work, while the Sabbath rest of the law was only part time. . .the full-time rest of God for his people being yet to enter, in that NT full-time salvation rest. . .in Christ's work which saves, and rest from their own works to save. . .which those new Hebrew Christians were considering not entering by a return to Judaism.

 

[returntosender]

l
@Rick
You would make a good pastor. You are always so kind and knowledgeable in your responses. I can see you bringing people to the Lord. You are very patient. You have my vote. I can't ever see you being harsh or striking out. I think that is part of the reason Cormack liked you so much

 

[TedT]

Perhaps it would be. . .if that were the doctrine.
However, it is not about dismerit in anyone, no such thing exists, for
all are born condemned; i.e., in "dismerit."
Romans 5:18 - "The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

They were passed over for ever getting salvation when HE did not elect them to salvation for no, ie, any condition (since you don't like the word dis-merit since it is too sharp and pointed) found in them but only for HIS good pleasure...loooog before they were born into Adam's sin, another heinous blasphemy on HIS good name: Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this Psalm is true, HE would never have put HIS creation into Adam's evi through no fault of their own because HE takes no pleasure in evil.

 

[RickReads]

l
@Rick
You would make a good pastor. You are always so kind and knowledgeable in your responses. I can see you bringing people to the Lord. You are very patient. You have my vote. I can't ever see you being harsh or striking out. I think that is part of the reason Cormack liked you so much

I'm not sure Cormack likes me as much as he used to but I appreciate it. One always hopes that their words serve the cause of Christ in some way. doesn't seem to work out like that much around here.
Which is why I seem to always end up feeling like Jesus wants me to run from this place. LOL

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[RickReads]

Referring to God's creation work, God's rest being full-time from his work, while the Sabbath rest of the law was only part time. . .the full-time rest of God for his people being yet to enter, in that NT full-time salvation rest. . .in Christ's work which saves, and rest from their own works to save. . .which those new Hebrew Christians were considering not entering by a return to Judaism.

You might be close to right. The rest is to cease from your own works, casting all your cares on Jesus.
The more we submit to His Lordship the more we enter into His rest. Every day can be a Sabbath if everything we are doing is for His Kingdom. I want to be that strong before my time is done.

 

[Clare73]

You might be close to right. The rest is to cease from your own works, casting all your cares on Jesus.
The more we submit to His Lordship the more we enter into His rest. Every day can be a Sabbath if everything we are doing is for His Kingdom. I want to be that strong before my time is done.

Every day is a Sabbath rest because of our salvation rest in Christ's work which saved us,
and not working to save ourselves.

 

[fhansen]

Would it not be metaphysically acceptable if we all chose by our free will our own fates in HIM either as our GOD and Saviour OR as a liar and therefor a false god...?

The only thing wonky about predestination is the Calvinist assertion that election had to be without merit or condition found in neither the elect nor the reprobate. I suggest that rejecting this as the blasphemy of GOD's goodness it is, that it opens our thinking to accept an election by merit and a reprobation by dismerit found in each individual due to their free will choices..


IF the blasphemy of our election being without merit is rejected in favor of the idea that: those who put their faith in HIM merited election to salvation and the rejection of HIM by faith was the reason for the others being passed over for election to salvation as they were condemned on the spot. How is that not acceptable?

This is what the church has always taught, that the first right or just step for man, in response to God's calling, to His grace, is faith. And that pleases Him immensely prescisely because we can refuse to act upon that grace, that gift; we can reject it, we can say "no" even though without Him we cannot begin to say "yes". Faith is the reversal, within ourselves, of Adam's "no" to God. But it's not only faith that pleases God but also that which faith is meant to lead to, which is hope and, most importantly, love. These two are also gifts of grace and, at the same time, human choices as well. And love is what Adam really missed. It would've bound him to God and precluded his disobedience. I think he possesses it by now.

To the extent that we embrace and act upon these virtues, we obey and do the good that God would have us do in order to be justified and inherit eternal life, Rom 2:7 and 2:13, we put to death the deeds of the flesh, Rom 8:12-13, we do the works prepared for us in advance, Eph 2:10, we obey the commandments, Matt 19:17, we feed the hungry and clothe the naked, Matt 25, we wash our robes, Rev 22. Or we can refuse, we can reject grace, we can reject God, at any point along the way.

 

[RickReads]

Every day is a Sabbath rest because of our salvation rest in Christ's work which saved us,
and not working to save ourselves.

It's about a lot more than your salvation. It's about everything you do in life. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Cast your cares upon Him the Bible says. This is the peace Jesus promised us.

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[Clare73]

It's about a lot more than your salvation.
It's about everything you do in life. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Cast your cares upon Him the Bible says. This is the peace Jesus promised us.

However, in Hebrews 4:3, the passage under discussion, it is about our salvation rest.

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

That is referring to ceasing from our own works to save, in our NT salvation rest, as God rested from his works.

 

[RickReads]

However, in Hebrews 4:3, the passage under discussion, it is about our salvation rest.

That is referring to ceasing from our own works to save, in our NT salvation rest, as God rested from his works.

Alrighty then. I'll sit at Jesus' feet and you can go make dinner.

 

[Clare73]

Alrighty then. I'll sit at Jesus' feet and you can go make dinner.

No-o-o!!! . . .I've always wanted Mary's place!

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps it would be. . .if that were the doctrine.
However, it is not about dismerit in anyone, no such thing exists, for
all are born condemned; i.e., in "dismerit."
Romans 5:18 - "The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."
Some are chosen for salvation for no other reason than God's sovereign right to choose,
Romans 9:18 - "Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and

he hardens whom he wants to harden."
As in Jacob and Esau:
Romans 9:11-13 - "Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that his purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls. . ."
Romans 9:19-21 - "Some of you (Ted?) will say, "Then why does God still blame us? (i.e., if God determines whose heart is hardened and whose is not, how can God blame anyone for

hardening his heart?)
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Isaiah 29:16, Isaiah 45:9)'
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use and some for common use (human waste)?"
Is this Calvin's doctrine of which you speak?

They were passed over for ever getting salvation when HE did not elect them to salvation for no, ie, any condition (since you don't like the word dis-merit since it is too sharp and pointed) found in them,
but only for HIS good pleasure...

So we are agreed that

"God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and
he hardens whom he wants to harden" (Romans 9:18)
and man is still responsible for his hardened of heart (Romans 9:19)
with no standing in justice to question it (Romans 9:20-21).

So. . .how does Calvin differ from the above?

 

[returntosender]

I'm not sure Cormack likes me as much as he used to but I appreciate it. One always hopes that their words serve the cause of Christ in some way. doesn't seem to work out like that much around here.
Which is why I seem to always end up feeling like Jesus wants me to run from this place. LOL

He put you here probably because you are so gentle while still being a good witness. He has gone in another direction. It's hard to maintain friendships when beliefs are so different. Besides he liked you enough to return some day if it's okay I will pm you if I need to rather then post here.

 

[renniks]

So how do you handle the doctrine in post #58 (above) with the immature believer (Hebrews 6:1)?

Why do you quote Hebrews 6:1?
This chapter is so anti Calvinism:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
Calvinism doesn't allow for falling away.

 

[renniks]

Does it sound like the Biblical doctrine in post #58?

It sounds like the gospel of:

John 6:65 - "NO one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."

John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."

I see nothing that supports Calvinism in there. Not when I read those verses in the context they fit into.
Jesus was talking to unrepentant Jews at this time. The reason they were not enabled to come to Jesus is because they had refused to see Jesus in the Torah. "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Does God's will always happen in this world?
No because if it did Jesus would not have prayed "your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

We can refuse to follow God's will for us.
Ask yourself why Jesus was rebuking them for not believing, if your interpretation is correct? That wouldn't make a lot of sense.

 

[renniks]

There are many posts on this very thread that speak on those that are condemned and those that aren't. Isn't that predestination. I know the tulip thing is Calvinism. That doesn't mean I understand it.
You're funny!

I'm not sure what you are getting at. People are condemned for not believing.
Tulip is pretty straightforward. What part of it don't you understand?

 

[TedT]

This is what the church has always taught, that the first right or just step for man, in response to God's calling, to His grace, is faith.

Yes...about man, those enslaved to sin ie who cannot choose righteousness and whose acceptance of grace MUST BE BY GRACE!!!

Should we just pass by our enslavement to sin as "even if true it is essentially meaningless"?

 

[fhansen]

Yes...about man, those enslaved to sin ie who cannot choose righteousness and whose acceptance of grace MUST BE BY GRACE!!!

Should we just pass by our enslavement to sin as "even if true it is essentially meaningless"?

Not at all! Sin will still earn us death if we persist in grave sin rather than get on and remain on the path of righteousness, in union with God. Grace is not only the favor and forgiveness of God but it's also His life in us by which we can live righteously now, the true way. But our wills are still involved throughout that. So we can refuse that vital grace at any point, returning to the flesh, returning to death.