Double Predestination acceptable...

[Clare73]

Predestination exists because of God's foreknowledge. It's about that more than anything. No one else knows.

Precisely!

God's foreknowledge, as used in the Bible, is not knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it is knowing in advance what he is going to do, because from before the foundations of the world,
he decreed that he shall do it.

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18).

"I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass." (Isaiah 48:3)

See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:17.

 

[TedT]

Predestination exists because of God's foreknowledge. It's about that more than anything. No one else knows.

If we take into account the verses that say HE does not want anyone to perish (hell) but to repent and be saved and that, though HE does all for HIS pleasure HE takes no pleasure in death of the wicked...
by which we can assume HE would like to see hell stay empty...
AND, if by HIS omniscience HE knows and all about the end of our lives before creation
THEN, rather than predestine some to hell in a causative way, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to keep hell empty was TO NOT CREATE THOSE HE KNEW WOULD END IN HELL at all!!!

How much more clear can this be?? Whatever this says about HIS omniscience, which must be redefined, these verses certainly repudiates the concept that any predestination to hell is based on HIS foreknowledge, at or before our creation.

Were they sinners before they were predestined to hell? They supposedly didn't exist yet so, NO.

Were they sinners when they were created? If they were created on earth at conception then, YES.

How does this not blaspheme HIS nature as loving, righteous and just?

 

[RickReads]

If we take into account the verses that say HE does not want anyone to perish (hell) but to repent and be saved and that, though HE does all for HIS pleasure HE takes no pleasure in death of the wicked...
by which we can assume HE would like to see hell stay empty...
AND, if by HIS omniscience HE knows and all about the end of our lives before creation
THEN, rather than predestine some to hell in a causative way, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to keep hell empty was TO NOT CREATE THOSE HE KNEW WOULD END IN HELL at all!!!

How much more clear can this be?? Whatever this says about HIS omniscience which must be redefined, it certainly repudiates the concept that any predestination to hell is based on HIS foreknowledge, at or before our creation, of our end in hell.

Were they sinners before they were predestined to hell? They supposedly didn't exist yet so, NO.

Were they sinners when they were created? If they were created on earth at conception then, YES.

How does this not blaspheme HIS nature as loving, righteous and just?

Price of the free will you profess to have. God could have created a creature who would not sin.

Adam and Eve had free will and to have free will you have to be able to make bad decisions.

 

[TedT]

Hello again Ted, are the "sins" (committed by the unsaved) the reason that the Lord Jesus gives us for their condemnation, or is it actually something else?

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”.

Of course, John 3:18 says it perfectly. Their sin was never believing, especially since it was probably based upon their putting their faith in the unforgivable choice of judging HIM to be evil and HIS power being from evil.

Putting their faith in being HIM a liar and a false god is the reason for their never believing, the reason for their being condemned already and the reason they were predestined, predicted - not caused, to end in hell.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ummm, but saved by grace means that no one can make any choice that can save themselves...without grace all are doomed. Election is the promise of salvation, grace is the fulfillment of the promise, so basically when HE looks to the future all HE sees is HIS work, sigh.

Doesn't add up yet.

Grace is Christ dying on the cross. That’s the grace we received but did not deserve. Christ died for everyone both the condemned and the saved so that He will rightly be the one to judge each person and decide their faith. So yes by grace (Christ’s sacrifice) we have been saved thru faith not by works because our works cannot atone our sins but they are pleasing to God because of our atonement, they are no longer filthy rags in His presence because the stain of sin has been removed.

 

[TedT]

The Bible does not teach the pre-existence of our souls, neither does historic/orthodox Christianity, nor does the church (though I can understand why it is so important to the existence of your particular presupposition).

But I think the bible does indeed teach our pre-conception existence, (not pre-existence as no one can exist before they exist though pre-earth existence is also correct), but 4000 years of interpreting the bible to skirt around it and to develop a rational to explain what the verses mean in the (false) light of the prevailing created on earth theory, unless you are looking for the idea you will never even notice it. PCE is not the elephant in the room everyone ignores, it is the elephant that has become invisible by the focus upon other minutia so we can't even think something else might be in play...

So far it's been about 12 or so years I've been challenging everyone to find me ONE verse in the Bible that makes our pre-earth existence to be impossible OR to even HINT that it must be impossible.

The LDS are HUGE advocates of it however. Do you number yourself among them by any chance?

No sir. No more than my faith in Christ makes me Calvinist or Catholic etc. In fact I was excoriated by a tribunal of LDS elders as following a demon 35 years ago when I was inquiring about whether my pce was indeed LDS... It is not.

 

[TedT]

Price of the free will you profess to have. God could have created a creature who would not sin.

Adam and Eve had free will and to have free will you have to be able to make bad decisions.

Yes and Yes...except HE did not want to marry a robot.

I don't get it. If you agree with me as this seems to do, then why are you arguing with me???

 

[RickReads]

Yes and Yes...except HE did not want to marry a robot.

I don't get it. If you agree with me as this seems to do, then why are you arguing with me???

I'm still trying to figure out what you believe. I see it a bit differently than you do. and I told you early on that I possibly might agree with you on some things.

Those initials you use for your theology is a red flag. There is a verse that says the works were finished from the foundation of the world but we can mostly only speculate on the ramifications of that. So I'm not really accepting of your opinion that we had a pre womb existence nor do I believe God has postponed the Day of the Lord. Both are pure speculation that I think is likely wrong.

To be fair, I'm still considering your views because I haven't pinpointed exactly what's wrong with all this yet.

 

[returntosender]

I struggle with this daily and the more I read about it on the forum the more I am confused.
No RSVP is needed. I just need to stay away from this subject here.
Happy Easter everyone!

 

[RickReads]

I struggle with this daily and the more I read about it on the forum the more I am confused.
No RSVP is needed. I just need to stay away from this subject here.
Happy Easter everyone![/QUOTE

What bothers you about this? Maybe I can help.

 

[returntosender]

That's sweet of you but I started to late in life to study the bible and understand it. I do read the Bible all the time and I love God but it is a mystery to me. I could say we are predestined but that takes away our choice. That's a drop in the bucket to all the questions that come up. Having covid twice my comprehension is almost nil which doesn't help what little I had before. I really do think you are very nice to offer. Enjoy your stay here this time.

 

[returntosender]

Why are so many against the Calvinist beliefs?

 

[RickReads]

That's sweet of you but I started to late in life to study the bible and understand it. I do read the Bible all the time and I love God but it is a mystery to me. I could say we are predestined but that takes away our choice. That's a drop in the bucket to all the questions that come up. Having covid twice my comprehension is almost nil which doesn't help what little I had before. I really do think you are very nice to offer. Enjoy your stay here this time.

The finest Christian I ever knew was a beloved great aunt of mine. She could barely read yet she read the bible every morning and was very disciplined about that. She was just a simple old-timey
person. Full of God's love and when I was a boy she showed me, Jesus.

Many times I've wished I was the caliber of Christian she was. I've never made it yet. It's not about head knowledge because that doesn't change your character.

Predestination does not rob anyone of their chance to make a choice. It simply means that God knows what a person will choose in advance and acts accordingly. That's a good thing, it's a great thing.

 

[RickReads]

Why are so many against the Calvinist beliefs?

That's a big can of worms that's been opened up a few times around here. I think it would require its own thread.

 

[returntosender]

The finest Christian I ever knew was a beloved great aunt of mine. She could barely read yet she read the bible every morning and was very disciplined about that. She was just a simple old-timey
person. Full of God's love and when I was a boy she showed me, Jesus.

Many times I've wished I was the caliber of Christian she was. I've never made it yet. It's not about head knowledge because that doesn't change your character.

Predestination does not rob anyone of their chance to make a choice. It simply means that God knows what a person will choose in advance and acts accordingly. That's a good thing, it's a great thing.

I agreed with your last paragraph for a while and then something came up that made me think twice. It's the easiest way to believe. Calvinist believe that.

 

[returntosender]

If Jesus died on the cross to free us from sin. Why are we considered born sinners?
What Jesus did would mean nothing then. I am changing my mind about that also.

 

[RickReads]

If Jesus died on the cross to free us from sin. Why are we considered born sinners?
What Jesus did would mean nothing then. I am changing my mind about that also.

I don't think the Bible supports the view that we are born sinners. Everyone will be judged according to their own deeds, not someone else's.

We are born in the flesh and Adams's curse corrupted our nature in the flesh. We grow old and die, we are also predisposed to sin. It's our sinful nature that is inherited from Adam.

 

[renniks]

Why are so many against the Calvinist beliefs?

Because they make God a monster who causes people to not be able to come to him and then punishes them eternally for it.

 

[Clare73]

I struggle with this daily and the more I read about it on the forum the more I am confused.
No RSVP is needed. I just need to stay away from this subject here.
Happy Easter everyone!

Yes, you should stay away from it.

 

[Clare73]

Because they make God a monster who causes people to not be able to come to him and then punishes them eternally for it.

Some Biblical doctrine is best left to the spiritually mature and not presented to babes in Christ.
(Hebrews 6:1)