Double Predestination acceptable...

[Clare73]

Claire or Clarence? Seems a mystery not to be named.

It be she, Clare.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It be she, Clare.

lol np manna for all *_* was curious tho.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't believe she is saying that at all nor do I believe that truth can be put in a trap. Her belief is
that only Gods actions are predestined.

Maybe you need to have another look at her post.

I have read many, maybe most, of her posts. This one is no different from the others, in belief or exposition. Her belief is that all things result from God's actions (in a sense, one could say, they ARE God's actions, but lest he be accused of sin, we try to avoid saying that), @Clare73 believes this includes man's actions and choices. If I am wrong, she has never, in many opportunities, chimed in to contradict me in this, nor have I heard her to say anything that I could take to demonstrate that she believes only God's actions are predestined.

What do you mean by, "truth [cannot] be put in a trap."? 1. Do you mean that truth cannot be trapped? Truth is often exposed by the use of a rhetorical or logical trap; or, 2. do you mean that truth cannot be used to build a trap? God uses truth to blind those who blind themselves to it. The truth always produces a result.

 

[Mark Quayle]

lol np manna for all *_* was curious tho.

Clare-ly, your puzzlement has been Clarified.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am not denying that God affects hearts and behavior, as demonstrated in my post #113.

I am saying that the word "foreknowledge" as used in the Bible is foreknowledge of his own actions, rather his foreknowledge of man's actions.
I am not denying his foreknowledge of anything, only pointing out the meaning of the word as it is used in the Bible.

He foreknows what he is going to do because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it; e.g., the birth of Jesus, the atonement of the cross, etc.

Sorry to 'add to' what you say, but you keep bringing out the exuberance in me! Well, actually, I'm not adding, as you made the same point in your post, underlining "he".

Not only has God "decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it", but that he shall do it!

For the reader's sake (I know Clare already acknowledges this) this by no means is any claim that man does not also do, but it is a statement that the ability of our will is far secondary to God's. It is a RESULT of God's will. There is nothing merely self-originated in us, nor anything uncaused about our decisions. Our doings are none of them completely spontaneous, but are predestined, forecaused. Yet they are the result of our wills, whether they be perverse or Godly.

 

[RickReads]

I am not denying that God affects hearts and behavior, as demonstrated in my post #113.

I am saying that the word "foreknowledge" as used in the Bible is foreknowledge of his own actions, rather his foreknowledge of man's actions.
I am not denying his foreknowledge of anything, only pointing out the meaning of the word as it is used in the Bible.

He foreknows what he is going to do because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it; e.g., the birth of Jesus, the atonement of the cross, etc.

And you are saying exactly what I asserted you said. As I said before you are wrong about that.

The term foreknowledge appears twice in the Bible. In both cases, it confirms God's foreknowledge of the deeds of man and addresses deeds of men.

 

[RickReads]

I have read many, maybe most, of her posts. This one is no different from the others, in belief or exposition. Her belief is that all things result from God's actions (in a sense, one could say, they ARE God's actions, but lest he be accused of sin, we try to avoid saying that), @Clare73 believes this includes man's actions and choices. If I am wrong, she has never, in many opportunities, chimed in to contradict me in this, nor have I heard her to say anything that I could take to demonstrate that she believes only God's actions are predestined.

What do you mean by, "truth [cannot] be put in a trap."? 1. Do you mean that truth cannot be trapped? Truth is often exposed by the use of a rhetorical or logical trap; or, 2. do you mean that truth cannot be used to build a trap? God uses truth to blind those who blind themselves to it. The truth always produces a result.

The truth doesn't have flaws to exploit. Because I have the strength that comes from knowing the gospel I can't be trapped in any way. Many have tried in forums such as this.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Clare73]

And you are saying exactly what I asserted you said. As I said before
you are wrong about that.

Edit: "God's foreknowledge," as used in the Bible, [End of Edit.]
does not refer to his knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it refers to his knowing in advance what he is going to do,
because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it.
We know this from the following:

Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord (God's foreknowledge) for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (God's foreknowledge) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

See Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:17.

The term foreknowledge appears twice in the Bible. In both cases,
it confirms God's foreknowledge of the deeds of man and addresses deeds of men.

Not according to the Scriptures above

Please demonstrate both cases in light of the above Scriptures.

 

[RickReads]

God's foreknowledge is not knowing in advance what man is going to do, it is
knowing in advance what he is going to do,
because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it.

Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

See Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:17.

Please demonstrate both cases in light of the above.

What would be the point? I can lay it right in front of you and you will deny it.
God is seen directing the actions of men in some of your verses yet you won't see it.

I`ll give you one example and there are probably over 100 in the Bible. Jesus foreknew Peter would deny Him, He knew it, it was predestined to happen, Yet Peter made his choice and didn't realize what he had done until it was too late.

it`s a classic example of foreknowledge.

 

[Fervent]

What would be the point? I can lay it right in front of you and you will deny it.
God is seen directing the actions of men in some of your verses yet you won't see it.

I`ll give you one example and there are probably over 100 in the Bible. Jesus foreknew Peter would deny Him, He knew it, it was predestined to happen, Yet Peter made his choice and didn't realize what he had done until it was too late.

it`s a classic example of foreknowledge.

A major separation is that Calvinist's view providence as closed. God knows man will act in a certain way and gives man the ability to act in that way, so God is the sole actor. It's pure unadulterated fatalism, with word games to deny the charge. A similar book to Checks Against Antinomialism could likley be written called Checks Against Fatalism and be just as humorous.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The truth doesn't have flaws to exploit. Because I have the strength that comes from knowing the gospel I can't be trapped in any way. Many have tried in forums such as this.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So YOU are thoroughly possessing of the knowledge of the Gospel, to include all that God is and all that sin is? YOU are the purveyor of truth? It appears that you have trapped yourself, in your words. The truth has been exposed.

Nobody has that kind of knowledge, but God himself, even the Spirit of God in us. You are not the possessor of strength. God is.

You are right: The truth has no flaws. I said nothing about flaws in the truth to exploit, nor did I imply such a thing. That is immaterial to the discussion. But your own quote of Scripture speaks to what the truth does, and yes, it never returns void, to God who sent it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What would be the point? I can lay it right in front of you and you will deny it.
God is seen directing the actions of men in some of your verses yet you won't see it.

I`ll give you one example and there are probably over 100 in the Bible. Jesus foreknew Peter would deny Him, He knew it, it was predestined to happen, Yet Peter made his choice and didn't realize what he had done until it was too late.

it`s a classic example of foreknowledge.

You may not realize it, but you two are arguing two different aspects of the same thing. You with the little microscope, looking at man, Clare looking at the big picture —at God's work. Again, @Clare73 does not deny that God foreknows what men will do, and will happily claim that this foreknowing more than implies predestination. She is trying to get through to you that predestination necessarily implies God's action —a cause, to which man's action is necessarily an effect.

But you are making her argument for her, by emphasizing that God's foreknowledge means that he predestined what man does, because she is saying that God's foreknowledge is HIS action, predestining all things!

Edit: @Clare73 please correct me if I am wrong about what you are saying.

 

[Clare73]

What would be the point? I can lay it right in front of you and you will deny it.
God is seen directing the actions of men in some of your verses yet you won't see it.

Correct, but that is not the point.

I`ll give you one example and there are probably over 100 in the Bible. Jesus foreknew Peter would deny Him, He knew it, it was predestined to happen, Yet Peter made his choice and didn't realize what he had done until it was too late.

it`s a classic example of foreknowledge.

Indeed, that is a demonstration of Jesus' foreknowledge, but there is no specific reference there to "God's foreknowledge," which is my point.

I am referring to when the phrase "God's foreknowledge" is used in a verse.
The point is not any general demonstration of "foreknowledge,"

the point is: to what is" God's foreknowledge" referring when it is used
(it is not used in reference to Peter in the above),

the point is: that Scriptures elsewhere in the Bible show that "God knowing in advance" refers to
"his knowing in advance" what he is going to do, that
the use of "God's foreknowledge" does not refer to God's knowing in advance what man is going to do.

"God's foreknowledge is HIS action, predestining all things!"

Thanks for that, Mark!

 

[RickReads]

A major separation is that Calvinist's view providence as closed. God knows man will act in a certain way and gives man the ability to act in that way, so God is the sole actor. It's pure unadulterated fatalism, with word games to deny the charge. A similar book to Checks Against Antinomialism could likley be written called Checks Against Fatalism and be just as humorous.

I`m not completely sure what some of those terms mean. I`m a simple country Christian who enjoys reading the Bible.

My Bible says all the world is guilty before God. None seek God it says. The remedy for that is the drawing of the Father. Jesus talked about that and said it's the only way you can come to Him.

The Calvinist doctrine believes salvation occurs at this point. Befoe knowledge of Jesus, before hearing the gospel, before repentance. That`s why many confused Calvins think that God randomly chooses who to save.

It`s the great flaw in their belief system.

 

[Fervent]

I`m not completely sure what some of those terms mean. I`m a simple country Christian who enjoys reading the Bible.

My Bible says all the world is guilty before God. None seek God it says. The remedy for that is the drawing of the Father. Jesus talked about that and said it's the only way you can come to Him.

The Calvinist doctrine believes salvation occurs at this point. Befoe knowledge of Jesus, before hearing the gospel, before repentance. That`s why many confused Calvins think that God randomly chooses who to save.

It`s the great flaw in their belief system.

Fatalism just means that men are excluded from their decisions, essentially that we are meat puppets being carried along with no say in what is happening. Calvinism teaches that God's provision is so complete that all of our actions are effects of God's action rather than being generated from within us. There's also a great deal of the tail wagging the dog where verses have been so hammered as proof texts that the only way a lot of Calvinists can hear them is the proof text which they mistake for "plain meaning" rather than being able to look at the entire passage to understand the contextual meaning of those proof texts which often denies the doctrine they've been taken into the service of.

 

[RickReads]

So YOU are thoroughly possessing of the knowledge of the Gospel, to include all that God is and all that sin is? YOU are the purveyor of truth? It appears that you have trapped yourself, in your words. The truth has been exposed.

Nobody has that kind of knowledge, but God himself, even the Spirit of God in us. You are not the possessor of strength. God is.

You are right: The truth has no flaws. I said nothing about flaws in the truth to exploit, nor did I imply such a thing. That is immaterial to the discussion. But your own quote of Scripture speaks to what the truth does, and yes, it never returns void, to God who sent it.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Phillippians 4:13
"I can do all this through him who gives me strength."

 

[RickReads]

Correct, but that is not the point.

Indeed, but the word "foreknowledge" is not used in that verse.

The point is not the meaning of the word "foreknowledge" in general,

the point is: the meaning of the word "foreknowledge" as used in the Bible (it is not used above),
the point is: that Scripture shows the meaning of "God knowing in advance," as used in the Bible, is
"his knowing in advance" what he is going to do, the
use of "foreknowledge" in the Bible does not refer to God's knowing in advance what man is going to do.

"God's foreknowledge is HIS action, predestining all things!"

Thanks for that, Mark!

The word foreknowledge doesn't have to be included for the Bible to be talking about foreknowledge.
You seem to be micromanaging words to the point where this conversation has drifted.

My point is and has been that God has foreknowledge of both His own works and the works of man.
So I disagree with your opinion and consider it outright unreasonable and untenable.

Also and once again the word foreknowledge appears twice in scripture and in each case, it is referring to Gods works as well as the works of men.

 

[RickReads]

How could God know the end from the beginning without foreknowledge of the deeds of men?

 

[Clare73]

The word foreknowledge doesn't have to be included for the Bible to be talking about foreknowledge.

Agreed. . .

My point relates only to where the word is actually used, and
my point there is that several other Scriptures show us to what "foreknowledge" is referring when it is used, it is referring to God's work, not to man's work.

You seem to be micromanaging words to the point where this conversation has drifted.

My point is and has been that God has foreknowledge of both His own works and the works of man.

How could God know the end from the beginning without foreknowledge of the deeds of men?

Agreed, but that is tangent to my point and, therefore, does not address it.

So I disagree with your opinion and consider it outright unreasonable and untenable

Also and once again the word foreknowledge appears twice in scripture and in each case,
it is referring to Gods works as well as the works of men.

Feel free to demonstrate the error in my Biblical demonstration (post #148).

 

[RickReads]

Agreed. . .

My point relates only to where the word is actually used, and
its meaning where it is actually used to be shown in the Scriptures; i.e., of his work, not of man's work.

Agreed, but that is tangent to my point and, therefore, does not address it.

Feel free to show the error in my Biblical demonstration.

Also and once again the word foreknowledge appears twice in scripture and in each case, it is referring to Gods works as well as the works of men.

I put the references to the deeds of man in bold, dunno if it will help you or not.

1. Acts 2:23
   Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
2. 
   
3. 1 Peter 1:2
   Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied