Double Predestination acceptable...

[Clare73]

I put the references to the deeds of man in bold, dunno if it will help you or not.

1. Acts 2:23
   Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Yes, their actions were the result of God's determinate (causative) decree (counsel).

2.
3. 1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

And the phrase "according to the foreknowledge of God" used there means
according to his action of election decreed before the foundations of the world,
and accomplished by the influence of the Holy Spirit which drew them from sin and toward holiness.

 

[RickReads]

Yes, their actions were the result of God's determinate (causative) decree (counsel).Foreknowledge of the Father being his action of election decreed before the foundations of the world,
by the influence of the Holy Spirit which drew them from sin and toward holiness.

Sorry, but I doubt God will accept responsibility for evil deeds which would violate His Holiness. I am only saying He foreknew what they would do.

Likewise, obedience is something His children will be rewarded for. They will receive God`s recognition for their works. I am only saying God foreknew that they would choose to obey.

 

[TedT]

In the case that we were all rubbish, it wouldn't be a travesty of justice if God chose to save some and not others.

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.” (Psalm 89:14). God is just. It is part of His character, which means He is always just. He cannot be unjust, and He defines and sets the standard for justice.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
What does it mean that God is not a respecter of persons? The gospel was for all people, not just the Jews. “God is no respecter of persons” means that God will provide every person with the opportunity to receive the blessings available through the plan of salvation. ie, no one is passed over for salvation by HIS choice but only by their own free will choice to be outside of HIS grace and mercy.

 

[RickReads]

Fatalism just means that men are excluded from their decisions, essentially that we are meat puppets being carried along with no say in what is happening. Calvinism teaches that God's provision is so complete that all of our actions are effects of God's action rather than being generated from within us. There's also a great deal of the tail wagging the dog where verses have been so hammered as proof texts that the only way a lot of Calvinists can hear them is the proof text which they mistake for "plain meaning" rather than being able to look at the entire passage to understand the contextual meaning of those proof texts which often denies the doctrine they've been taken into the service of.

As I have considered this post, I'm thinking you have summarized Clare73s position on this topic.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, but I doubt God will accept responsibility for evil deeds which would violate His Holiness.

God willed that his Son should suffer the penalty for our sin.
How does that happen without evil deeds?

I am only saying He foreknew what they would do.
Likewise, obedience is something His children will be rewarded for.

They will be rewarded (crowned) for God's own work in them enabling them to obey, which is why they will be "casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea." (Revelation 4:10)

They will receive God`s recognition for their works.
I am only saying God foreknew that they would choose to obey.

Indeed, but that is not to what the term "God's foreknowledge" refers as it is used in the Bible,
where "God's foreknowledge" refers to foreknowledge of his actions, not to man's actions.

 

[Clare73]

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.” (Psalm 89:14). God is just. It is part of His character, which means He is always just. He cannot be unjust, and He defines and sets the standard for justice.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

What does it mean that God is not a respecter of persons? The gospel was for all people, not just the Jews. “God is no respecter of persons” means that God will provide every person with the opportunity to receive the blessings available through
the plan of salvation. ie, no one is passed over for salvation by HIS choice but only by their own free will choice to be outside of HIS grace and mercy.

As I have considered this post,
I'm thinking you have summarized Clare73s position on this topic.

 

[RickReads]

Indeed, but that is not the meaning of foreknowledge as it is used in the Bible.

I don't believe such a definition exists apart from what's in the dictionary.

Foreknowledge is the concept of knowledge regarding future events.

Types of foreknowledge include:

• Precognition or prior viewing of some likely future event
• Knowledge of predestination
• Prediction - Calculated, informed or uninformed guesses regarding future events
• Prognostication - Typically informed predictions about future events in a confined context
• Prophecy - Religious concept of divine knowledge, often with a consideration of future trends or events, and to some degree regarding events of an imminent, or divinely planned nature.

 

[Clare73]

I don't believe such a definition exists apart from what's in the dictionary.

Foreknowledge is the concept of knowledge regarding future events.

The Bible is not "apart from the dictionary," it's which definition in the dictionary is used in the Bible:
1) foreknowledge of God's works, or
2) foreknowledge of man's works, or
3) both.

Scripture demonstrates (post #148) that the word "foreknowledge,"
when specifically used in reference to God, means dictionary definition #1),
which is not to say that the other meanings of foreknowledge are not
presented in the Bible, it is only to say that the word "foreknowledge" is not used in regard to them.

My assertions are only about where God's knowing in advance is specifically referred to as his "foreknowledge."

Types of foreknowledge include:

• Precognition or prior viewing of some likely future event
• Knowledge of predestination
• Prediction - Calculated, informed or uninformed guesses regarding future events
• Prognostication - Typically informed predictions about future events in a confined context
• Prophecy - Religious concept of divine knowledge, often with a consideration of future trends or even,ts, and to some degree regarding events of an imminent, or divinely planned nature.

 

[RickReads]

It's not "apart from the dictionary," it's which definition in the dictionary is used:
1) foreknowledge of God's works, or
2) foreknowledge of man's works, or
3) both.

Scripture demonstrates (post #148) that its use of "foreknowledge" is dictionary definition #1).

I disagree

You paying attention Mark? Clare confirmed yet again what I've been saying about her position on this!

 

[Clare73]

I disagree

Feel free to demonstrate my Biblical error.

 

[RickReads]

Feel free to demonstrate my Biblical error.

I already have.

 

[Clare73]

I already have.

Not in light of the Scriptures presented in post #148.

So we can put it to rest then?

 

[RickReads]

We can put it to rest then?

Nope. LOL

 

[Clare73]

Nope. LOL

Aw, shucks. . .

In the Bible, "God's foreknowledge"--knowing in advance what is going to happen, is
not because he looks down the corridors of time to learn what is going to happen,
but he knows in advance because, from before the foundations of the world,
he has decreed that it shall happen.

When the Bible uses the word "foreknowledge" in specific reference to God,
it is not about God knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it is about God knowing in advance what he is going to do, which he knows
because he has decreed that he shall do it.

 

[renniks]

The point of Romans 9 is that
salvation is not, and never has been, by descent from Abraham, but by faith alone, and that
God failed neither in his promise to Israel, fulfilling it in a remnant,
nor in his purpose of the gospel, the offer of salvation to the world,

Yes that's part of what I was saying . As I said God didn't fail. And yes that salvation is by faith not works. But it's not about individual people being chosen for salvation.

 

[renniks]

Aw, shucks. . .

In the Bible, "God's foreknowledge"--knowing in advance what is going to happen, is
not because he looks down the corridors of time to learn what is going to happen,
but he knows in advance because, from before the foundations of the world,
he has decreed that it shall happen.

When the Bible uses the word "foreknowledge" in specific reference to God,
it is not about God knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it is about God knowing in advance what he is going to do, which he knows
because he has decreed that he shall do it.

Even I can know what I'm going to do. That's not omniscience. He knows simply because he's God. He doesn't need a reason.

 

[Clare73]

Yes that's part of what I was saying . As I said God didn't fail. And yes that salvation is by faith not works. But it's not about individual people being chosen for salvation.

The letter was not written to Jews, but to Gentile Romans with Gentiles in mind.

It is individual salvation in Romans 9:19-26, Romans 9:30.

 

[Clare73]

Aw, shucks. . .

In the Bible, "God's foreknowledge"--knowing in advance what is going to happen--is
not because he looks down the corridors of time to learn what is going to happen,
but he knows in advance because, from before the foundations of the world,
he has decreed that it shall happen.

When the Bible uses the word "foreknowledge" in specific reference to God,
it is not about God knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it is about God knowing in advance what he is going to do, which he knows
because he has decreed that he shall do it.

Even I can know what I'm going to do. That's not omniscience. He knows simply because he's God. He doesn't need a reason.

The subject there is foreknowledge, not omniscience, and the above is God's foreknowledge. . .the issue being how is "God's foreknowledge" used in Scripture, which Scripture shows it does not refer to his foreknowledge of man's actions, but of his own actions, as demonstrated in the Scriptures I provided.

 

[renniks]

The subject there is foreknowledge, not omniscience, and that is God's foreknowledge.

Says scripture nowhere.

 

[Clare73]

Says scripture nowhere.

Thoroughly litigated in many posts in this thread; e.g., post #148. . .will not be relitigating it.