Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Phil W]

This doctrine is an example of James 1:8

I can't say whether or not your hypothetical pastor is double-minded, but I would give him a chance to be a Christian.

I would quote James 5:16 to him as well as 1 Peter 4:8... and I would cap it off with 1 Thessalonians 5:11

James 5:16 is more of an exhortation for the holy, and not for the one who sinned.
As are 1 Peter 4:8 and 1 Thes 5:11.

What would you say to him to lead him to Christ? To get him on the right path?

 

[Grip Docility]

I can't say whether or not your hypothetical pastor is double-minded, but I would give him a chance to be a Christian.


James 5:16 is more of an exhortation for the holy, and not for the one who sinned.
As are 1 Peter 4:8 and 1 Thes 5:11.

What would you say to him to lead him to Christ? To get him on the right path?

Brother the doctrine set forth in post # 1400 is double minded.

I specified what I would say towards the pastor.

To Moses?
Why would I do that?
My example is Jesus Christ...not Moses.

Moses' opinion doesn't matter to NT believers.
I am in Christ Jesus, wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin.
I am reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
My repentance from sin is real.

This life is available to all who will submit to God.

What would you say towards a minister caught in Adultery, in respects to his salvation?

I'ld say..."Repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Christ Jesus for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"...just as Peter said to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

What would you say?

This doctrine in the above quoted posts is an example of James 1:8

I would quote James 5:16 to him as well as 1 Peter 4:8... and I would cap it off with 1 Thessalonians 5:11

 

[CharismaticLady]

Either it is a sin or it isn't and needs to be repented of.

All sins are intentional, as James makes clear in James 1:14-15.

“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. Leviticus 5:15

I've shown you this scripture before, and you still say "all sins are intentional." James 1:14-15 is about temptations that we don't even have to yield to. We can resist the devil and he will flee. It has nothing to do with trespasses, but willful sins.

There can be no sin in the light. It is God.
Folks who still need cleansing are not in God, the light, or the Spirit.
They have not repented of sin yet.

There can be no willful sin in the light of God. That is lawlessness, and a true Christian is dead to willful sin.

OT wisdom?

Authored by the one and only God.

You are accusing folks of sin who have not sinned.

1 Corinthians 14:38

Assigning different word to sin doesn't change the source of their origin.
If something needs to be forgiven, it is a sin...done to satisfy some lust.
But Gal 5:24 says they that are Christ's have killed the lusts...ergo: there can be nothing to be forgiven of.
If some spirit has convinced you that you will never be perfect, and that is what I see as the bottom line of your POV, resist it, and the devil will flee from you. (James 4:7)

Again, I'm not talking about lawlessness. I don't willfully sin and you know that. But you HAVE trespassed against me, and I forgive you.

 

[Jeshu]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Ezekiel 18:4b "The one who sins is the one who will die."

Sadly many Christians have left sin undone in their lives and thought they were saved because of such misunderstanding.

We do have to understand that we might be saved a soul but Scripture remains true nevertheless. No one can escape the truth of their sins for it were those who crucified and killed Christ.

A proper reading of Scripture teaches us that we have a God who deals with sinfulness living within us very thoroughly. He cuts self in sin from our spirit when we repent and gives us new life instead. Hebrews 4:12-13.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Also it is best to understand that Revelation 20:11-15 is still always true as well.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Sinful life we need to be saved from but in and of itself is never saved. No sinful self dwelling within us is going to be sinful in Heaven but will have been washed of into the lake of fire. No problem for the redeemed but a massive problem for all who died outside of God's truth doing evil things.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So i believe God repays us according to our deed. If we have fought against sin because we truly loved Him and neighbour then we will no be sorry to see sinful self go of our sense of self, but if we love sin then we will gnash our teeth missing out on God's Kingdom in that self. Indeed the sheep and goats are very spiritually true realities within all people i'm totally assured of that in my walk with Jesus.

So no i don't believe that we can ever continue in sin and think we will get away with our evil deeds. Like i said we need to be saved from sinful life not continue in it. From experience i know that God addresses us in our sinful self and that ever thereafter wilful sin doesn't exist any more in that part of our lives but we are resurrected to new life and become a building block of our new creation in Christ. The bible calls this sanctification.

Peace.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ezekiel 18:4b "The one who sins is the one who will die."

Sadly many Christians have left sin undone in their lives and thought they were saved because of such misunderstanding.

We do have to understand that we might be saved a soul but Scripture remains true nevertheless. No one can escape the truth of their sins for it were those who crucified and killed Christ.

A proper reading of Scripture teaches us that we have a God who deals with sinfulness living within us very thoroughly. He cuts self in sin from our spirit when we repent and gives us new life instead. Hebrews 4:12-13.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Also it is best to understand that Revelation 20:11-15 is still always true as well.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Sinful life we need to be saved from but in and of itself is never saved. No sinful self dwelling within us is going to be sinful in Heaven but will have been washed of into the lake of fire. No problem for the redeemed but a massive problem for all who died outside of God's truth doing evil things.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So i believe God repays us according to our deed. If we have fought against sin because we truly loved Him and neighbour then we will no be sorry to see sinful self go of our sense of self, but if we love sin then we will gnash our teeth missing out on God's Kingdom in that self. Indeed the sheep and goats are very spiritually true realities within all people i'm totally assured of that in my walk with Jesus.

So no i don't believe that we can ever continue in sin and think we will get away with our evil deeds. Like i said we need to be saved from sinful life not continue in it. From experience i know that God addresses us in our sinful self and that ever thereafter wilful sin doesn't exist any more in that part of our lives but we are resurrected to new life and become a building block of our new creation in Christ. The bible calls this sanctification.

Peace.

Thank you for replying. One thing I was confused on. The ones whose sins are "washed" in the lake of fire, do you believe they are resurrected from there to go to heaven?

 

[Phil W]

Brother the doctrine set forth in post # 1400 is double minded.

Would you mind elaborating, as I have no idea of which part of Acts 2:38 is inappropriate for folks who will submit to God?

 

[Phil W]

“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. Leviticus 5:15

If it is unintentional, it is not a sin. (James 1:14-15)

I've shown you this scripture before, and you still say "all sins are intentional." James 1:14-15 is about temptations that we don't even have to yield to. We can resist the devil and he will flee. It has nothing to do with trespasses, but willful sins.

Without temptation there is no sin.
How do you label sin to something we need not "resist"?
If we aren't tempted, enticed, to do something, how can we resist the temptation and the devil?
You are calling accidents "sin".

There can be no willful sin in the light of God. That is lawlessness, and a true Christian is dead to willful sin.

But according to you, erroneously, not unintentional sin.
It makes no sense that Jesus would suffer and die for our sins, but leave us open to accidents.

Authored by the one and only God.
1 Corinthians 14:38

That applies to women too.

Again, I'm not talking about lawlessness. I don't willfully sin and you know that. But you HAVE trespassed against me, and I forgive you.

By introducing a whole new category of sinfulness, are you also waiting for another Messiah to deliver you from "unintentional lawlessness"?
I mean, you seen to still be a servant of unintentional lawlessness, so...Do you want to be saved?

 

[Grip Docility]

Would you mind elaborating, as I have no idea of which part of Acts 2:38 is inappropriate for folks who will submit to God?

The content is clear.

 

[Phil W]

The content is clear.

Maybe to you it is, but not to me.

BTW, he would no longer qualify to be the bishop/pastor either, as he no longer met the "blameless" caveat of 1 Tim 3:2 or Titus 1:7.

 

[Grip Docility]

Maybe to you it is, but not to me.

BTW, he would no longer qualify to be the bishop/pastor either, as he no longer met the "blameless" caveat of 1 Tim 3:2 or Titus 1:7.

I have yet to meet a Sinless Pastor/Bishop.

I never trust the ones that claim to be.

 

[Phil W]

I have yet to meet a Sinless Pastor/Bishop.

Then they don't match up with the requirements listed in 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1.

I never trust the ones that claim to be.

And you shouldn't: asking as many questions as you have asked me is a good start.
They need to be able to defend not only themselves, using scripture, but also the doctrine which is according to Godliness. (1 Tim 6:3)
They are out there.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then they don't match up with the requirements listed in 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1.


And you shouldn't: asking as many questions as you have asked me is a good start.
They need to be able to defend not only themselves, using scripture, but also the doctrine which is according to Godliness. (1 Tim 6:3)
They are out there.

Are you free from Moses?

 

[Jeshu]

Thank you for replying. One thing I was confused on. The ones whose sins are "washed" in the lake of fire, do you believe they are resurrected from there to go to heaven?

Yes i believe that all bad life living in people's hearts dies when we face God's loving truth and all God's good life is resurrected back in its stead.

Psalm 22:29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If it is unintentional, it is not a sin. (James 1:14-15)

Without temptation there is no sin.
How do you label sin to something we need not "resist"?
If we aren't tempted, enticed, to do something, how can we resist the temptation and the devil?
You are calling accidents "sin".

You are almost correct. It is not unto death, James 1:15, and that is why it is only a trespass. 1 John 5:16-17, a sin NOT unto death. All lawlessness is unto death. And that is why in the Old Testament there were no sacrifices that covered anyone breaking one of the Ten Commandments. They killed them. They were committing sins unto death. But those laws are written on our heart and our new nature prevents us from wanting to commit them. We KNOW they are sins against God. Trespasses may actually be unknown to us. You probably don't even KNOW how you hurt me, and that is why you haven't apologized, though you know now. But I know, and forgive you.

Matthew 5:23-24
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

But according to you, erroneously, not unintentional sin.
It makes no sense that Jesus would suffer and die for our sins, but leave us open to accidents.

Look at the Corinthians. You seem to think we are spiritually mature from day one. Maturity comes through humility.

1 Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor. 1:18 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 3:And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Philippians 3:
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul's last letter at the end of his days.

2 Tim. 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

We must keep growing, and not just in knowledge, but in character. There is a scripture somewhere in the NT epistles that implies if you stop growing, you go backwards. I can't think of a key word to find it, but I did see it once when I was reading through the NT.

By introducing a whole new category of sinfulness, are you also waiting for another Messiah to deliver you from "unintentional lawlessness"?
I mean, you seen to still be a servant of unintentional lawlessness, so...Do you want to be saved?

You misquote me, and do not yet understand. There is no such thing as unintentional lawlessness. Lawlessness is WILLFUL. Full knowledge. Rebellion. Carnal.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes i believe that all bad life living in people's hearts dies when we face God's loving truth and all God's good life is resurrected back in its stead.

Psalm 22:9
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

Can you check your reference, it doesn't say that.

Psalms 22:9
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

Found it. Verse 29 I see that as Old Testament saints waiting for their Messiah.

Do you believe in hell? Do you believe everyone will be saved, such as in Universalism?

 

[Jeshu]

Can you check your reference, it doesn't say that.

Psalms 22:9
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.

Found it. Verse 29 I see that as Old Testament saints waiting for their Messiah.

Do you believe in hell? Do you believe everyone will be saved, such as in Universalism?

No i don't adhere to human teaching, only to what is true according to Scripture. Human words tend to pervert, imprison, distort, or even lie about God's word rather than establish it in our hearts.

i certainly believe in eternal hell (revelation 20:11-14), but i also believe that all God's rightful offspring will be saved, (Isaiah 57:1-2), it will not benefit the wilful sinners though, (Isaiah 57:4), indeed such life in lies will fry, Matthew 25:46), but it does confirm Scripture that God is the Saviour of everyone He has ever made. (1 Timothy 4:9-10).

So yes God's rightful offspring will be resurrected and given eternal life while all the bad life in peoples hearts will fry their sinful deeds. (Daniel 12:2).

Peace.

 

[Phil W]

You are almost correct. It is not unto death, James 1:15, and that is why it is only a trespass. 1 John 5:16-17, a sin NOT unto death.

The verse says "sin", but you relegate it to something less...trespass.
Why do you want to change what is written?
Do you get some kind of pleasure heaping more condemnation on the non-sinner?
A sin unto death is one you don't quit doing...repent of.
A sin 'not' unto death is one you do repent of, permanently.

All lawlessness is unto death. And that is why in the Old Testament there were no sacrifices that covered anyone breaking one of the Ten Commandments. They killed them. They were committing sins unto death. But those laws are written on our heart and our new nature prevents us from wanting to commit them. We KNOW they are sins against God. Trespasses may actually be unknown to us. You probably don't even KNOW how you hurt me, and that is why you haven't apologized, though you know now. But I know, and forgive you.

We are not in the OT anymore.
It is written..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' (Rom 8:1)
Your doctrine leads to condemnation for unknown 'trespasses' we may not be able to repent of because we are unaware of them.
That just sounds unGodly.

Matthew 5:23-24
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Trespasses are sins.

Look at the Corinthians. You seem to think we are spiritually mature from day one. Maturity comes through humility.

Those who have humbled themselves before God may not have all knowledge, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that without enticement, temptation, lust, and conception there is no sin.
Your doctrine cancels out 1 Cor 10:13..." There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
How does one escape from the unknown trespass?

We must keep growing, and not just in knowledge, but in character. There is a scripture somewhere in the NT epistles that implies if you stop growing, you go backwards. I can't think of a key word to find it, but I did see it once when I was reading through the NT.

What has that got to do with opening a whole new category of sin...by any other name?
If a trespass is something we can't "turn from", how can we ever be perfect?
Your 'notion' eclipses the grace of God.

You misquote me, and do not yet understand. There is no such thing as unintentional lawlessness. Lawlessness is WILLFUL. Full knowledge. Rebellion. Carnal.

So is a trespass.
All you have done by separating sin from trespass is bring condemnation to those in Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Do you get some kind of pleasure heaping more condemnation on the non-sinner?

That's funny, because that is exactly what I see you doing.

Most Christians who are honest with themselves and are born again of the Spirit, know they are not perfect, and see their characters growing from year to year. You tell them they are not saved unless they are already perfect. But trespasses are AUTOMATICALLY cleansed by the blood of Jesus. That is why I forgive, and try not to hold grudges, because that is the only condition. Your message is any fault and you are not saved, otherwise you wouldn't have any faults because of the seed of the Father in you. Your message is one of extremism that isn't true and could be discouraging. I tell you you have trespasses, but they are cleansed. Their gone. And you act like I gave you an incurable plague.

I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow. Hope your 4th was fun. Good night.

 

[Phil W]

That's funny, because that is exactly what I see you doing.
Most Christians who are honest with themselves and are born again of the Spirit, know they are not perfect, and see their characters growing from year to year.

All born again Christians have answered Jesus' command in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
To do otherwise is disobedience to Jesus.
This perfection doesn't preclude growing in grace and knowledge though.
It enables it!

You tell them they are not saved unless they are already perfect.

Is that which is born of God perfect?
I hope you aren't going to say... "No, God's seed brings forth imperfection".
That would be ludicrous.

But trespasses are AUTOMATICALLY cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

So what is the point of talking about something that doesn't really matter?

Your message is any fault and you are not saved, otherwise you wouldn't have any faults because of the seed of the Father in you.

OH NO!
Another category of sin.
Now we have sins, trespasses, and faults!
How do you keep track of all that?

"...God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
We already know that darkness is sin..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:..." (Pro 4:19)
Are trespasses and faults light/God or darkness/sin?
There is no grey area.

 

[Jeshu]

Most Christians who are honest with themselves and are born again of the Spirit, know they are not perfect, and see their characters growing from year to year. You tell them they are not saved unless they are already perfect. But trespasses are AUTOMATICALLY cleansed by the blood of Jesus. That is why I forgive, and try not to hold grudges, because that is the only condition.

Fully agree with you here. As active believers and followers of Christ we are always saved and we never need to be afraid of our not such faithful times in our faith in and love for Christ.

However this means in reality that in sin we wont continue to have life but rather find rebirth in His loving truth - time and again - day after day - until all the elect of our heart are Home and Jesus can do away with sin living in us completely on the Last Day. It shouldn't mean that we continue to live in sin and think god has saved like that any ways. For that would certainly not be true according to Scripture. for there it is written. Those who sin shall die. Ezekiel 18:4b "....The one who sins is the one who will die."

It would be foolish of us to believe that as wilful sinners we will get away with our acts of unrighteousness. No where in Scripture does it say that the unrighteous are saved unrighteous. We need to be very clear about that. Indeed how many believers are there not who say; "i'm saved", but clearly walk around in loves unfaithful to God's loving truth? Do we really think that we will get away with that? The bible has to remain true in deed for us to be assured of our salvation. Honestly in my sinful flesh i agonise my lost ness of being and long for redemption from my sin totally so that i would be pure like our Lord Jesus is. If it was only as easy as that to get free from sin. It is hard for a sinner to be saved.

So if a believer walks around in untrue love then such love in deed is never saved as such but the believer can be saved from being as such by repenting from being that way and asking Jesus to bring newness of life.

Agreed?