Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[ViaCrucis]

The “doeth now save you” part is the same today as the hour we first believed.

Spoiler

Lutherans speak of "Word and Sacrament" for a reason. By this phrase we are not speaking of two different things, Word OR Sacrament, or either Word, or either Sacrament; but that these are one thing: Word and Sacrament.

1. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith, and this faith is God's gift, not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8), therefore salvation is "not of works, let anyone should boast". So, then, how do we receive this gift of faith? How does God, graciously, take hold of sinners in order to save them?

2. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17), as Paul rhetorically asks, "How can they believe on the One whom they have not heard? How can they hear unless one is sent?" God sends forth His word, but it is always word present in means, for example, the preaching of the Gospel.

3. This same word is connected to those Means which Christ instituted, so He says, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" and "Preach the Gospel to every living creature". He says concerning the bread and wine of His Supper, "This is My body broken for you" and "This is the New Covenant in My blood". For we have, time and again, in Scripture God's word connected to these Means: "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" and "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" and "having been buried with Him in Baptism" and so on and so forth.

4. Therefore, seeing as God works through Means, which He Himself established, that He takes hold of sinners through Word and Sacrament, to give them faith; thus the grace which He has for us through Christ is to appropriate to us Christ and all which Christ has done.

But, understand in this not the absolute power of God, but the ordered power. For God here has promised to act in this way, to accomplish His good for us. We do not, and cannot, say that God is restricted or limited here. For the Son of God Himself declares to the thief next to Him, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise", does this deny the grace and gift of Baptism? No, it emphasizes the power of God's word. The same word which our Lord spoke to the thief is the word He speaks to us through His Gospel, through His Sacraments, "You will be with Me" is what He says to us when the Gospel is preached to us, it is what He says to us in our Baptism, it is what He says to us through His Supper.

Therefore Christ is trustworthy, for His word is true, our salvation is assured and secure not because of ourselves, but on account of Christ and His precious word to us, that we are His, we belong to Him. And we can look, not to ourselves, but to where God has acted--Word and Sacrament--to have true faith in Christ. So we can say, "I am baptized" and in saying this we can have full confidence that we belong to Jesus Christ our Lord, we have God as our Father, and the Holy Spirit in us making us alive by the power of God's kindness, mercy, and grace. Having received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, by grace, through faith, on Christ's account alone, apart from ourselves, but from God alone our Savior.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Phil W]

You know very well that I'm not talking about when you DO love. I'm talking about when you DON'T, as I've seen many times. What do you call that? God calls it sin. What do you call it?

Testify of the sin, or let it go.

 

[Phil W]

And yet the baptized are not rendered impeccable. Perhaps when they were baptized it just wasn't good enough, maybe God's word failed them in that instance. Perhaps God just isn't very good at keeping His promises?

Personally, I would be afraid to call the off spring of God "unimpeccable".
And you can forget about all your "perhaps's".
The only time a baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, (and the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection with Christ of the new creature) is a waste of time is when the subject of the baptism has not truly repented of sin.

Or, perhaps, Baptism doesn't render us impeccable. Baptism most certainly grants us forgiveness of sin, and cleanses us, by uniting us to Christ's death and resurrection--indeed, clothing us with Christ Himself--and through which we have received the Holy Spirit. But it does not render us impeccable.

You deny the very scriptures you refer to. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
That qualifies as "impeccable" to me.

Nevertheless Baptism is Baptism, God's precious Sacramental work which is of water and Spirit, by which we are born again.

You better make up your mind about what you believe and what you doubt.
You can't have both.

 

[Phil W]

1 Peter 3:21

Belief of that scripture started my walk in the light.

 

[Phil W]

You have a faithful and gracious God who has promised you to forgive you. And then when you inevitably fail again, when you fall again, you drop back to your knees in sorrow and grief; and you still have the God who loves you, accepts you, and embraces you through Jesus Christ, who holds onto you even when you are failing to hold onto Him. You have a God who forgives you, you have a Savior who does not abandon you. You have a hope in the life everlasting that transcends the tribulation, turmoil, and struggle of this life. So that even as you are failing, Christ is succeeding. Even as you have nothing, Christ gives you everything.

You have Jesus Christ as your Savior, and you can trust in Him instead of trusting in yourself. He is Faithful, you are not. He is Good, you are not. Look to Him and Him only.

-CryptoLutheran

You have the wrong definition of "repent".
If I "repent" of something, sin in this case, I turn from it...permanently.
There is nothing "inevitable" about it except that you will never sin again.
And God provides everything we need to keep our vow of subjection to Him.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

 

[Phil W]

Right, through Holy Baptism God saves us. As the Apostle St. Peter says, "this Baptism now saves you", not, he says, as merely some washing of dirt from our skin, but as "the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", what we have in Baptism isn't simply a mere bath, but a transformation of who we are, a new birth, we are new creations in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

But not "impeccable"?

 

[Grip Docility]

You have the wrong definition of "repent".
If I "repent" of something, sin in this case, I turn from it...permanently.
There is nothing "inevitable" about it except that you will never sin again.
And God provides everything we need to keep our vow of subjection to Him.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

Yet you know what occurs within our flesh... I say this without any hesitation or refrain.

What are the implications of demanding sinlessness in the Name Of He Who was Loved by sinners, hung out with sinners (need proof texts?)... was called a glutton and a drunkard by the religious elite... and specifically vocalized He came to call Sinners, not the Righteous?

 

[Grip Docility]

You have the wrong definition of "repent".
If I "repent" of something, sin in this case, I turn from it...permanently.
There is nothing "inevitable" about it except that you will never sin again.
And God provides everything we need to keep our vow of subjection to Him.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

You were saying?

3341. metanoia ►

Strong's Concordance

metanoia: change of mind, repentance

Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: metanoia

Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)

Definition: change of mind, repentance

Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man

Where’s the “outer/old” man?

Paul Knows.

 

[Phil W]

Yet you know what occurs within our flesh... I say this without any hesitation or refrain.

Regarding what?

What are the implications of demanding sinlessness in the Name Of He Who was Loved by sinners, hung out with sinners (need proof texts?)... was called a glutton and a drunkard by the religious elite... and specifically vocalized He came to call Sinners, not the Righteous?

Instead of using the word "demanding", I use the word "granted".
Jesus said "the truth shall make you free". (John 8:32)
Those who commit sin are still servants of sin, and not of God.
The implication of granting us freedom from sin is that we can serve God with our whole heart.
And our neighbor as we would serve ourselves.
Thanks be to God!

 

[Grip Docility]

Regarding what?


Instead of using the word "demanding", I use the word "granted".
Jesus said "the truth shall make you free". (John 8:32)
Those who commit sin are still servants of sin, and not of God.
The implication of granting us freedom from sin is that we can serve God with our whole heart.
And our neighbor as we would serve ourselves.
Thanks be to God!

Love thy neighbor is the Law of Christ. And in no way do you hold yourself or your neighbor to Moses.

 

[Phil W]

You were saying?
3341. metanoia ►
Strong's Concordance
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man
Where’s the old man?

He is dead.
Crucified with Christ, along with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Paul Knows.

Yep. Paul wrote of the crucifixion, burial, of the old man, and resurrection of the new creature in Romans 6:3-6.
He also wrote of the result of our crucifixion with Christ in verse 7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Thanks be to God!

 

[Phil W]

Love thy neighbor is the Law of Christ. And in no way do you hold yourself or your neighbor to Moses.

To Moses?
Why would I do that?
My example is Jesus Christ...not Moses.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But not "impeccable"?

Correct. Concupiscence remains even after Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Personally, I would be afraid to call the off spring of God "unimpeccable".
And you can forget about all your "perhaps's".
The only time a baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, (and the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection with Christ of the new creature) is a waste of time is when the subject of the baptism has not truly repented of sin.


You deny the very scriptures you refer to. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
That qualifies as "impeccable" to me.


You better make up your mind about what you believe and what you doubt.
You can't have both.

There isn't an either-or, there is a both-and.

We are saint and sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

He is dead.
Crucified with Christ, along with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)


Yep. Paul wrote of the crucifixion, burial, of the old man, and resurrection of the new creature in Romans 6:3-6.
He also wrote of the result of our crucifixion with Christ in verse 7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Thanks be to God!

To Moses?
Why would I do that?
My example is Jesus Christ...not Moses.

So then... you count the “outer man” “dead”... and buried.

The Freedom from condemnation is what you declare.

The Law you live by is to Love your neighbor, and you do not judge yourself or others by Moses!

You “appear” “Sinless” before the Father because He sees Christ and not your Dead and buried old man “Outer Man”?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Testify of the sin, or let it go.

I'm not asking to name what you did, just acknowledge the type of sin it is - trespasses.

Though you are born again of the Spirit, and cannot commit lawless moral sins, you are not free from hurting people and it appears enjoying it. The good news is that as long as you forgive others their trespasses against you, your trespasses will be forgiven by our Advocate. And that's not all. We can mature in the Spirit out of committing them, and truly be without sin. 1 John 2:1

 

[Phil W]

Correct. Concupiscence remains even after Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

You are kidding yourself with code-words.
Either on is a new creature or they aren't.
The new creature is gendered by God's seed.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
God's seed cannot bring forth sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are kidding yourself with code-words.
Either on is a new creature or they aren't.
The new creature is gendered by God's seed.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
God's seed cannot bring forth sin.

Jesus is only an Advocate of the saved, for sins that do not require repentance - trespasses.

 

[Phil W]

There isn't an either-or, there is a both-and.

We are saint and sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

Scripture please.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
Your POV negates this truth.

 

[ripple the car]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Luther was a bit messed up.

I don't know of many Protestants today who would even agree with that statement.

The sad thing is, that one possible and arguably plausible conclusion one might come to as a result of holding to the notion that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone *is* that we can sin and sin, and no matter what we do, we'll be saved so long as we continue to have faith.

That is not the only conclusion one can come to, but it is one.