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Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

  • No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Total voters
    30

Phil W

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So then... you count the “outer man” “dead”... and buried.
Outer man?
I see no verses implying anything of the sort.
The old man is dead. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

The Freedom from condemnation is what you declare.
No, the bible declares freedom from sin. (Rom 6:7)

The Law you live by is to Love your neighbor, and you do not judge yourself or others by Moses!
Do you think Moses had a law that preceded God's law?
I'll let God do the judging, thank you.

You “appear” “Sinless” before the Father because He sees Christ and not your Dead and buried old man “Outer Man”?
I appear sinless before the Father because He gave us the gift of repentance from sin...and I turned from sin.
I am a non-sinner. I have turned from sin.
Thanks be to God!
 
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Phil W

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I'm not asking to name what you did, just acknowledge the type of sin it is - trespasses.

Though you are born again of the Spirit, and cannot commit lawless moral sins, you are not free from hurting people and it appears enjoying it. The good news is that as long as you forgive others their trespasses against you, your trespasses will be forgiven by our Advocate. And that's not all. We can mature in the Spirit out of committing them, and truly be without sin. 1 John 2:1
I won't play your word games.
Trespasses are sins.
So is iniquity.
So is bearing false witness.
 
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Phil W

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Jesus is only an Advocate of the saved,...
In the sense that Jesus was the advocate, intercessor, for those who will be counted worthy of eternal life...I agree.
He is also the advocate for all others who wish to serve Him without fault.

...for sins that do not require repentance - trespasses.
Why do you label trespasses "sins", while you argue that trespasses are not sins?
 
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Grip Docility

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Outer man?
I see no verses implying anything of the sort.
The old man is dead. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)


No, the bible declares freedom from sin. (Rom 6:7)


Do you think Moses had a law that preceded God's law?
I'll let God do the judging, thank you.


I appear sinless before the Father because He gave us the gift of repentance from sin...and I turned from sin.
I am a non-sinner. I have turned from sin.
Thanks be to God!

Hmmmmmmmm.... curious.

You turned to Jesus Christ... and can no longer be charged sin? Is this your meaning of non-sinner?
 
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CharismaticLady

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Luther was a bit messed up.

I don't know of many Protestants today who would even agree with that statement.

The sad thing is, that one possible and arguably plausible conclusion one might come to as a result of holding to the notion that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone *is* that we can sin and sin, and no matter what we do, we'll be saved so long as we continue to have faith.

That is not the only conclusion one can come to, but it is one.

But then Jesus will end up having to say, "I never knew you, you workers of wickedness.

We must truly repent and be born again of the Spirit to have Christ's power to not willfully commit sins of moral lawlessness. Like murder, idolatry, sorcery, stealing, adultery, lying etc. of the Commandments. Those are the sins unto death. A born again Christian has no desire to commit any of those. So Luther was very wrong when choosing two such sins: murder and adultery for his unbelievable analogy.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Why do you label trespasses "sins", while you argue that trespasses are not sins?

Where have I ever stated that trespasses are not sins? I thought you didn't commit major sins of lawlessness. Lying is in with the majors. And you are committing it against me.


Jesus is only an Advocate of the saved, for sins that do not require repentance - trespasses.

I'm not asking to name what you did, just acknowledge the type of sin it is - trespasses.

Though you are born again of the Spirit, and cannot commit lawless moral sins, you are not free from hurting people and it appears enjoying it. The good news is that as long as you forgive others their trespasses against you, your trespasses will be forgiven by our Advocate. And that's not all. We can mature in the Spirit out of committing them, and truly be without sin. 1 John 2:1

Seeing as you believe you do cannot commit trespasses, how do you explain your failures to love at times? Are they not considered sin in God's eyes? Or would it mean you are not born again of the Spirit after all?

Here are three posts before I go to bed that proves that you are lying.

Josephus descriptions.

Josephus wrote, "Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death."

This is a quote from Josephus, from his historical first-century writings entitled, "Antiquities Of The Jews," Book #18, Chapter 2, section 3.
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."



The following was taken from a manuscript in the possession of Lord Kelly, and in his library, and was copied from an original letter of Publius Lentullus at Rome. It being the usual custom of Roman Governors to advertise the Senate and people of such material things as happened in their provinces in the days of Tiberius Caesar, Publius Lentullus, President of Judea, wrote the following epistle to the Senate concerning the Nazarene called Jesus.
"There appeared in these our days a man, of the Jewish Nation, of great virtue, named Yeshua [Jesus], who is yet living among us, and of the Gentiles is accepted for a Prophet of truth, but His own disciples call Him the Son of God- He raiseth the dead and cureth all manner of diseases. A man of stature somewhat tall, and comely, with very reverent countenance, such as the beholders may both love and fear, his hair of (the colour of) the chestnut, full ripe, plain to His ears, whence downwards it is more orient and curling and wavering about His shoulders. In the midst of His head is a seam or partition in His hair, after the manner of the Nazarenes. His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like His hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey, clear, and quick- In reproving hypocrisy He is terrible; in admonishing, courteous and fair spoken; pleasant in conversation, mixed with gravity. It cannot be remembered that any have seen Him Laugh, but many have seen Him Weep. In proportion of body, most excellent; His hands and arms delicate to behold. In speaking, very temperate, modest, and wise. A man, for His singular beauty, surpassing the children of men"

The letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar
This is a reprinting of a letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar describing the physical appearance of Jesus. Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.
TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.
Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.
Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.
Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate

Another description of Jesus is found in "The Archko Volume" which contains official court documents from the days of Jesus. This information substantiates that He came from racial lines which had blue eyes and golden hair. In a chapter entitled "Gamaliel's Interview" it states concerning Jesus (Yeshua) appearance:
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him [Yeshua] you will know him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy....' This Jew [Nazarite] is convinced that he is the Messiah of the world. ...this was the same person that was born of the virgin in Bethlehem some twenty-six years before..."

The Problem of the life passion of St. C? us, and the external appearance of Jesus possessed but minor interest for the Church Fathers, although the Catholic Acts of the Holy Apostles ascribe to him an olive complexion, a beautiful beard, and flashing eyes. Further details are first found in a letter to the Emperor Theophilus attributed to John of Damascus (in MPG, xcv. 349), which speaks of the brows which grew together, the beautiful eyes, the prominent nose, the curling hair, the look of health, the black beard, the wheat-colored complexion, and the long fingers, a picture which almost coincides with a hand-book on painting from Mt. Athos not earlier than the sixteenth century. In like manner, Nicephorus Callistus, who introduced his description of the picture of Christ (MPG, cxlv. 748) with the words, "as we have received it from the ancients," was impressed with the healthful appearance, with the stature, the brown hair which was not very thick but somewhat curling, the black brows which were not fully arched, the sea-blue eyes shading into brown, the beautiful glance, the prominent nose, but brown beard of moderate length, and the long hair which had not been cut since childhood, the neck slightly bent, and the olive and somewhat ruddy complexion of the oval face. A slight divergence from both these accounts is shown by the so-called letter of Lentulus, the ostensible predecessor of Pontius Pilate, who is said to have prepared a report to the Roman Senate concerning Jesus and containing a description of him. According to this document Christ possessed a tall and handsome figure, a countenance which inspired reverence and awakened love and fear together, dark, shining, curling hair, parted in the center in Nazarene fashion and flowing over the shoulders, an open and serene forehead, a face without wrinkle or blemish and rendered more beautiful by its delicate ruddiness, a perfect nose and mouth, a full red beard of the same color as the hair and worn in two points and piercing eyes of a grayish-blue.

Here is one translation from the Greek:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Here is the same Greek, rendered by a different translator:
Now about this time arose a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man. He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight. And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and [was regarded by them as] the Messiah. And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called 'Messianists' after him is not extinct.

The Arabic version of the text is translated as follows:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Luther was wrong on quite a lot of things.

Christians can and do fall into serious and mortal sins, even willingly and / or knowingly. A huge and vital piece of the puzzle is contrition; feeling truly sorry for our sins, and desiring not to sin again.

With God's help, we can and will grow. And become holier. But you are definitely right about how vital it is to live out the Gospel, daily. We must do this.

Gracia, I don't know what it is like in your church to receive the Holy Spirit. Mine came after being in the church for nearly 30 years. One night I sensed God's presence and I needed to talk with Him and wanted him to cleanse me. He first had to get my head on straight, and answered verbably what I was doing wrong. Then I repented all over again, and suddenly the Holy Spirit came down on me and through me, lifting off what seemed the weight of the world. Over night all desire to sin was gone. If you've never heard my testimony ask me if you are interested and I'll PM it to you.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I won't play your word games.
Trespasses are sins.
So is iniquity.
So is bearing false witness.

Right. Trespasses are sins, which you say you don't commit, but do. So do I. So does everyone born of the Spirit that is not completely mature in their fruit. It is lawless willful sins that 1 John 3:9 is talking about which neither of us commits, unless willful lying is not just a mistake in comprehension. That should cause pause.

Trespasses are faults in attitude, lack of love, lack of patience, etc. As long as we forgive each other these faults, our faults will be forgiven by God. To try to represent that you do not have any faults loses your credibility. Besides, misrepresenting the Scriptures. Encourage forgiveness of each other if you want to stand for truth and not a lie.
 
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Phil W

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Where have I ever stated that trespasses are not sins?
Post #1378..."...for sins that do not require repentance - trespasses."
Either it is a sin or it isn't and needs to be repented of.

I thought you didn't commit major sins of lawlessness. Lying is in with the majors. And you are committing it against me.
You better quit making accusations, as I think it is against the rules here.

Here are three posts before I go to bed that proves that you are lying.
Josephus descriptions...{?QUOTE]
I hope you copy-pasted all that, instead of actually wasting your time typing it.

:
 
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Phil W

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Right. Trespasses are sins, which you say you don't commit, but do. So do I. So does everyone born of the Spirit that is not completely mature in their fruit. It is lawless willful sins that 1 John 3:9 is talking about which neither of us commits, unless willful lying is not just a mistake in comprehension. That should cause pause.
If, as you truly say, trespasses are sins, why do you think they don't need to be repented of?

Trespasses are faults in attitude, lack of love, lack of patience, etc. As long as we forgive each other these faults, our faults will be forgiven by God. To try to represent that you do not have any faults loses your credibility. Besides, misrepresenting the Scriptures. Encourage forgiveness of each other if you want to stand for truth and not a lie.
They, trespasses, need to be repented of if a man wants to say he is born of Godly seed. (1 John 3:9)
 
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Phil W

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Are you:
A: (Sinless) according to Moses?
B: Sinless in Jesus Christ?
Moses' opinion doesn't matter to NT believers.
I am in Christ Jesus, wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin.
I am reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
My repentance from sin is real.

This life is available to all who will submit to God.
 
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Grip Docility

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Moses' opinion doesn't matter to NT believers.
I am in Christ Jesus, wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin.
I am reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
My repentance from sin is real.

This life is available to all who will submit to God.

What would you say towards a minister caught in Adultery, in respects to his salvation?
 
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CharismaticLady

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Post #1378..."...for sins that do not require repentance - trespasses."
Either it is a sin or it isn't and needs to be repented of.


You better quit making accusations, as I think it is against the rules here.



A trespass is also a sin unwittingly committed. In other words, you are not aware of committing them. That is why 1 John 2:1 showing Jesus as our Advocate says nothing about repentance. It is also why 1 John 1:7 shows a person doing their best to walk in the Spirit, and yet the blood of Jesus is still cleansing them of sin. What sin? Trespasses unintentionally committed. The intentions of the heart is what God sees. If your intention is to always be right with God, He sees that, and Jesus steps in as our Advocate when we are not 100% perfect and cleanses us of the 1% imperfection, making us sinless in the Father's eyes.

1 John 3:9 is in context with 1 John 3:4 sins of lawlessness, not trespasses.
 
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Phil W

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What would you say towards a minister caught in Adultery, in respects to his salvation?
I'ld say..."Repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Christ Jesus for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"...just as Peter said to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

What would you say?
 
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Phil W

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A trespass is also a sin unwittingly committed.
All sins are intentional, as James makes clear in James 1:14-15.

In other words, you are not aware of committing them.
Without the enticement, temptation, lust and conception there is no sin.

That is why 1 John 2:1 showing Jesus as our Advocate says nothing about repentance.
Why would you need an advocate for something you aren't even aware of?
You have embarked on OT rule making.

It is also why 1 John 1:7 shows a person doing their best to walk in the Spirit, and yet the blood of Jesus is still cleansing them of sin.
There can be no sin in the light. It is God.
Folks who still need cleansing are not in God, the light, or the Spirit.
They have not repented of sin yet.

What sin? Trespasses unintentionally committed.
OT wisdom?

The intentions of the heart is what God sees. If your intention is to always be right with God, He sees that, and Jesus steps in as our Advocate when we are not 100% perfect and cleanses us of the 1% imperfection, making us sinless in the Father's eyes.
You are accusing folks of sin who have not sinned.

1 John 3:9 is in context with 1 John 3:4 sins of lawlessness, not trespasses.
Assigning different word to sin doesn't change the source of their origin.
If something needs to be forgiven, it is a sin...done to satisfy some lust.
But Gal 5:24 says they that are Christ's have killed the lusts...ergo: there can be nothing to be forgiven of.
If some spirit has convinced you that you will never be perfect, and that is what I see as the bottom line of your POV, resist it, and the devil will flee from you. (James 4:7)
 
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Grip Docility

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To Moses?
Why would I do that?
My example is Jesus Christ...not Moses.

Moses' opinion doesn't matter to NT believers.
I am in Christ Jesus, wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin.
I am reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
My repentance from sin is real.

This life is available to all who will submit to God.

What would you say towards a minister caught in Adultery, in respects to his salvation?

I'ld say..."Repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Christ Jesus for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"...just as Peter said to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

What would you say?

This doctrine is an example of James 1:8

I would quote James 5:16 to him as well as 1 Peter 4:8... and I would cap it off with 1 Thessalonians 5:11
 
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