Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[ViaCrucis]

Right. Our completeness is in Christ. However, we are not yet complete.

Philippians 1:4-6
In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Scripture frequently describes things as a kind of tension between the now and not yet. So St. Paul can speak of our being perfect already, and yet not yet being perfect but looking forward to becoming perfect.

We have eternal life in Christ now; but not yet immortal.
We have perfection in Christ now; but not yet made perfect.
We have the imputed righteousness of Christ; but not yet ourselves righteous.

We are saints and sinners.
We are holy and unholy.
We are alive and perishing.
The new man and the old man.

We have been saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

We must feed the new man, and starve the old man. Therefore trusting in Jesus, and confessing our sins, living humble and contrite lives of faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ilovejcsog]

I enjoyed your comments.

Thank you and happy Sabbath

 

[CharismaticLady]

So if bob commits a “sin” and dies that instant, has bob lost eternity?

Trespass - no - Advocate cleanses it

Willful - probably, so why would I chance it when it is no longer our nature - Quenched the Spirit that made us conquerors. Trampled on the blood of Jesus. "Vengeance is Mine." Only we, ourselves, can separate ourselves from God's love by a rebellious act of lawlessness against our new nature; no outside created thing can separate us but ourselves.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not even Satan, himself, can make us willfully sin; only ourselves.

 

[Phil W]

Matthew 6:15 But if you will not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.

I am willing to forgive others, so it isn't going to be a problem in the end.

Leviticus 5:15 “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally

Thank God we are free from the OT laws.

 

[Phil W]

You do know that 1 John 3:9 is talking about sins of lawlessness don't you.

"All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)

1 John 3:4. In other words "willful." These we cannot commit because it is not in the divine nature given to us. But we can and do commit trespasses and hurt each other without realizing it.

Without satisfying the James 1:14-15 formula, there is no sin.
No temptation--no sin.

Though I don't know how much of yours are not intentional. This is why I have to keep forgiving you. You may be sinless, but only because we have an Advocate, because you are not perfect. But I still love you.

When I first encountered you, you were all gung-ho on freedom from sin.
Now, you are trying to find ways to thwart the goof works of God with "unintentional" and sins without lust or temptation.
Pick which side you really represent and stick to it.

 

[Phil W]

Sure, as I said they were temporary, and Jesus rebuked those who followed him for bread that filled temporarily. If you have ears, listen very carefully: these works were meant to edify, build up the faith of those who worried what would happen to them if they left Egypt, sold everything and gave it to the poor, resigned from their jobs, to follow Jesus. They showed "these things would be added unto them".

Matthew 11
20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you,Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if themiracles that were performed in you had happened in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

Paul’s time was temporary, but God’s grace gave him a work which lasted forever. Jesus’s work inaugurated the Body of Christ, the new humanity, Paul’s work enlarged it. I think the Early Church Fathers understood what exanastasia meant. “The blood of martyrs is the seed of the church” they noted.



2 Corinthians 12
8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected inweakness.” Therefore I will boast all the moregladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me. 10That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


There’s a hole in the bucket, ...



2 Corinthians 5
21God made Him who knewno sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him wemight become the righteousness of God.

Archaeological discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, etc. have unearthed evidence enabling the deciphering of terms like "the righteousness of God', dikaiosune theuo. Most scholars agree it means God’s righteousness, sense of obligation to keep His word, His promise to Abraham to make his seed a blessing to the world. It is by being in Christ that we become acceptable offerings to God, leading to the world being blessed.

If Rip van Winkle woke today, he would see electric cars. So you also should wake up and smell the coffee. Information theologians didn’t have before is available today.

Are you more interested in counting coup or in removing stumbling blocks?

As I don't know what you are on about, it seems to be a moot point.

 

[Phil W]

So if bob commits a “sin” and dies that instant, has bob lost eternity?

Doesn't a sin show he wasn't reborn of God's seed?
(1 John 3:9)

 

[Phil W]

Have you ever tried to eat a green persimmon?

Derail...

 

[Phil W]

And that's why we look forward to and long for the resurrection of the dead, the redemption of our bodies. But we are not here as though we have already attained it, but rather we press on, push forward, looking onward to Jesus as we run this race.

The new body will be furnished at the return of Christ, but the new heart, mind, and spirit has already been delivered.

"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." - Philippians 3:12-16
But you can't do that if you are pretending you're not a sinner.

Who is 'running the show' in your body?
You? Or Christ? (Gal 2:20)

Alright, by that definition nobody has ever repented ever.

It is too bad you think God wasted the gift of repentance on the Gentiles.
It is written..."To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:18)
And..."Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:26)
Thanks be to God for allowing me to "turn from" sin.

 

[Phil W]

You grabbed a post out of context. The "- lol" at the end signifies that it was a joke.

The reference you cited is worth a look. It indicates a sequence.
Our own evil desire>temptation>desire conceived (sinful act)>births sin>sin full-grown>births death (spiritual death)

Or in a simplified sequence:
Desire>temptation>yielding>guilt>maintenance>spiritual death

The sequence can be halted through repentance/confession at any point.
- Turn away from our own evil desires
- Resist temptation
- Confess sin when committed -- follow with repentance (turn away from sin)
- Confess a recognized pattern of sin -- follow with repentance (turn away from sin)
- Repent from a sinful lifestyle (a matured pattern of sin)
- Repent from the state of spiritual death reached by a full-blown sinful lifestyle

James 1:14-15
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Thanks be to God, our lusts have been killed..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Without that portion of the 'formula' there can be no sin.

 

[Phil W]

He is risen and glorified, are you? No, you are here with a flesh and bone that decays and dies. We have the gift of God's promise in Christ, through faith, of the hope of what is to come. Having now by faith in hope what we shall have, at the resurrection, in fact.

Like Paul in Phil 3, I have yet to receive my glorified vessel.
But my skin is His skin now, so in the broader picture, my skin is His skin.

One day we will be like Him, but not right now.

Only in the sense of our glorified body will we be any different than right now.
If you aren't 'like Him" now, you should worry.

This life is a cross,"and He tells us, "Take up your cross and follow Me" and "Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Can you show a verse that backs up your posit that "life is a cross"?

 

[Phil W]

If the elect sin willfully, they would repent and shall persevere, not by their own strength but by the power of the one who lives in them through the Holy Spirit. Thus they would be able to fight the good fight and finish their race.

Don't you think that if God is in a person by the Holy Spirit, that the person would reject the temptation before it was acted on?
I do.

 

[Grip Docility]

Doesn't a sin show he wasn't reborn of God's seed?
(1 John 3:9)

 

[Phil W]

What is your answer?

 

[Grip Docility]

What is your answer?

1 Corinthians 13 and James 2:8-10 Man! Jesus came for sinners! We fail! I know that we fail! Paul boasted in his weakness!

He is Sinless! We are merely declared sinless in the here and now!

How can we spread a Gospel that only saves the Sinless!?!

Jesus came to save.... SINNERS and teach Love and Mercy!

Bob is Saved! What confidence is there in the blood of Jesus Christ if salvation depends on human beings... beyond repentance that turns from pride and anchors in Jesus Christ!?!

 

[CharismaticLady]

"All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)


Without satisfying the James 1:14-15 formula, there is no sin.
No temptation--no sin.


When I first encountered you, you were all gung-ho on freedom from sin.
Now, you are trying to find ways to thwart the goof works of God with "unintentional" and sins without lust or temptation.
Pick which side you really represent and stick to it.

I am for truth.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is possible to not sin at all, but exactly what sins is Jesus being our Advocate if it is impossible for us to sin in the first place? Jesus is not an Advocate for those who are slaves of sin, the unsaved. And there is no repentance mentioned for these sins in verse one. Therefore, you need to know how God views sin, which you haven't even asked yourself, or searched God's word to find.

1 John 3:9 shows us that there is a type of sin which we cannot commit. But you have to notice the context and John states which type of sin that is at the beginning - lawlessness (vs 4). Those are sins against the moral laws of God. In the Old Testament there were no sacrifices that covered sins of lawlessness. They killed them, or cast them out of the camp. Even unruly teenagers who didn't honor their parents.

I haven't changed what I believe, and for the most part, I agree with you, but that is in our general doctrine, I just go deeper than you, and have a greater hunger for understanding God, His judgments and His ways. But if you never have the desire to delve deeper than you have, I won't be getting to heaven any sooner than you will just because my hunger is stronger. I'm not worried about you. You are reckoning yourself dead to sin, and so do I. That is enough. You just care about chiselling the big chunks, and I am down to the fine sandpaper.

 

[Wordkeeper]

As I don't know what you are on about, it seems to be a moot point.

I thought I answered your questions. Apparently your communication did not get through to me as I may have misunderstood what you are trying to say. How does your post address my questions:

↑
Biblical grace is the important grace. Paul beat himself up black and blue to get a desired result, but God told him His grace was sufficient. The examples of Grace you gave resulted in Lazarus being resurrected TEMPORARILY, the multitude fed TEMPORARILY, etc.
I don't see how you can differentiate between the 'two'?
Wasn't God's grace also 'sufficient' to raise Lazarus and feed the 5000?
Wasn't Paul's time on earth 'temporary'?

God's grace, available through confession,...
Scripture, please.

...leads to sharing in Christ's work, being a blessing to the world.
I hope you agree with me in that sinners are no "blessing to the world".

 

[GospelS]

Don't you think that if God is in a person by the Holy Spirit, that the person would reject the temptation before it was acted on?
I do.

Sometimes children may fall but the Father picks them up, reproves and disciplines them. Some are weak. Not every child will/could resist the temptation at all times. However, all elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit and we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us by giving into temptation.

Psalms 37:23-24 The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in His way; though he fall, he shall not be cast headlong, for the Lord upholds his hand.

Hebrews 12:5-6 My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The new body will be furnished at the return of Christ, but the new heart, mind, and spirit has already been delivered.

The new man exists alongside the old.

Who is 'running the show' in your body?
You? Or Christ? (Gal 2:20)

Yes. It is Christ who makes me alive to God, but I am called to subject myself to Christ here in this life. If I was already now perfect in myself, there would be no need to be reminded, time and again, that I should flee from immorality, that I should subject myself to the Lord, and follow Him. When I am made perfect, in the Age to Come, there will be no risk of me falling away, for I will be perfect even as Christ is perfect.

But I live now in this body of death, with sin present in my very members. And so I am at war with myself, the new man which is of Christ and the old man which is of Adam, at conflict.

It is too bad you think God wasted the gift of repentance on the Gentiles.
It is written..."To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:18)
And..."Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:26)
Thanks be to God for allowing me to "turn from" sin.

Hardly, God accomplished all these things. Our sins are forgiven, we have peace with God, we have been justified fully by His grace through faith which He has given us.

You're the one, however, treating repentance as something it isn't. So if you believe that repentance means becoming impeccable, then nobody has repentance. But if repentance is a good work of God in our lives, by which we are being transformed by the renewing of our mind and being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, then it is all which Scripture says it is.

Stop grieving the Spirit, repent and pray, for you are quite a sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can you show a verse that backs up your posit that "life is a cross"?

Really? I mean okay.

"and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." - Matthew 10:38

"Then Jesus called the crowd to Him along with His disciples, and He told them, 'If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.'" - Mark 8:34

"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'" - Luke 9:23

"that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death," - Philippians 3:10

"So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come." - Hebrews 13:12-14

Do you want more?

-CryptoLutheran