Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[CharismaticLady]

Really? I mean okay.

That was so funny!

(I can relate)

 

[Phil W]

1 Corinthians 13 and James 2:8-10 Man! Jesus came for sinners! We fail!

If "we" remain sinners, what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection?
It certainly wasn't just to save the sacrificial animals.
If there is no change in those who say they love God above all else, His death was wasted.

I know that we fail! Paul boasted in his weakness!

Physical weakness, not Spiritual weakness.

He is Sinless! We are merely declared sinless in the here and now!

God, nor Jesus, lie.
If He says you are sinless, you can't be a sinner too.

How can we spread a Gospel that only saves the Sinless!?!

Those who don't want to serve Him won't be forced to.
Few are chosen.
And God knows how to bring the faith to the faithful.

Jesus came to save.... SINNERS and teach Love and Mercy!

Which sins are under which category..."Love" or "Mercy"?
It is those who were once without love and mercy that He has enabled to love and be merciful.
Sinners have neither love or mercy.
I understand my "saving" was "from sin".
He has washed away my past sins and enabled me to resist all future temptation.
I thank God for my salvation.

Bob is Saved! What confidence is there in the blood of Jesus Christ if salvation depends on human beings... beyond repentance that turns from pride and anchors in Jesus Christ!?!

Repentance also turns from every other sin too.
All the gifts of God must be received by..."HUMAN BEINGS".
They are a key aspect of salvation.
It is for us that Christ was first promised and then arrived.
It is for us that Christ died and was raised again.
It was for us that God made water baptism our way into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. Enabling us to be reborn of His incorruptible seed.
Perfectly remade.

 

[Phil W]

I am for truth.
Good!

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is possible to not sin at all, but exactly what sins is Jesus being our Advocate if it is impossible for us to sin in the first place? Jesus is not an Advocate for those who are slaves of sin, the unsaved. And there is no repentance mentioned for these sins in verse one. Therefore, you need to know how God views sin, which you haven't even asked yourself, or searched God's word to find.

Without Jesus' advocacy no man could be in Christ and salvation would be a pipe dream.
He advocated for us at the point of our turn from satan and unto God. From darkness to light.
1 John 2:2 is directed at those who have never used the Advocate...the "any man".
Those who have already used Jesus' advocacy are to make those who haven't aware of Christ and the power therein.

1 John 3:9 shows us that there is a type of sin which we cannot commit. But you have to notice the context and John states which type of sin that is at the beginning - lawlessness (vs 4). Those are sins against the moral laws of God. In the Old Testament there were no sacrifices that covered sins of lawlessness. They killed them, or cast them out of the camp. Even unruly teenagers who didn't honor their parents.

You must have misread it.
If God's seed is in us we can't commit any kind of sin.
"Grape vines cannot bear figs"...Remember?

If God can empower us not to commit fifty kinds of sin, why is He powerless regarding fifty more kinds of sin?
You do disservice to yourself by categorizing different kinds of rebellion.
All sin warrants death.

BTW, don't you think those unruly teens, and other children, were given teachings to turn themselves around before they were brought to their deaths?
It was because of their failure to heed their instructors that they were found worthy of death,

I haven't changed what I believe, and for the most part, I agree with you, but that is in our general doctrine, I just go deeper than you, and have a greater hunger for understanding God, His judgments and His ways. But if you never have the desire to delve deeper than you have, I won't be getting to heaven any sooner than you will just because my hunger is stronger. I'm not worried about you. You are reckoning yourself dead to sin, and so do I. That is enough. You just care about chiselling the big chunks, and I am down to the fine sandpaper.

It seems your doctrine has already shown it's failure regarding "kinds of sin".

 

[Grip Docility]

If "we" remain sinners, what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection?
It certainly wasn't just to save the sacrificial animals.
If there is no change in those who say they love God above all else, His death was wasted.


Physical weakness, not Spiritual weakness.


God, nor Jesus, lie.
If He says you are sinless, you can't be a sinner too.


Those who don't want to serve Him won't be forced to.
Few are chosen.
And God knows how to bring the faith to the faithful.


Which sins are under which category..."Love" or "Mercy"?
It is those who were once without love and mercy that He has enabled to love and be merciful.
Sinners have neither love or mercy.
I understand my "saving" was "from sin".
He has washed away my past sins and enabled me to resist all future temptation.
I thank God for my salvation.


Repentance also turns from every other sin too.
All the gifts of God must be received by..."HUMAN BEINGS".
They are a key aspect of salvation.
It is for us that Christ was first promised and then arrived.
It is for us that Christ died and was raised again.
It was for us that God made water baptism our way into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. Enabling us to be reborn of His incorruptible seed.
Perfectly remade.

Before we go around and around... Please unpack what you mean by Physical weakness... as I would like to hear your intention behind those words...

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

 

[Phil W]

Sometimes children may fall but the Father picks them up, reproves and disciplines them. Some are weak. Not every child will/could resist the temptation at all times. However, all elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit and we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us by giving into temptation.

Your POV neglects the effect of rebirth.
If the repentant are reborn of God's seed, we can't act like children of the devil.
Grape vines cannot bear figs, and God's seed cannot bear wickedness.

Psalms 37:23-24 The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in His way; though he fall, he shall not be cast headlong, for the Lord upholds his hand.

If you are seeing "sin" where "fall" is written, please remember that Psalms were written in and for OT men.
Those who are God's children may slip on the ice and fall, but they don't serve sin anymore at all.
Thanks be to God!

Hebrews 12:5-6 My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.

I hope you are not thinking that if you are not being chastised that God doesn't love you.
Some men/women are obedient, and need no chastisement.

I thank you for the inclusion of the scriptures you are referring to.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Phil W
Seeing as you believe you do cannot commit trespasses, how do you explain your failures to love at times? Are they not considered sin in God's eyes? Or would it mean you are not born again of the Spirit after all?

The Spirit helps us rightly divide the Word of Truth, because He IS Truth. You're not. And because you are self-serving, you interpret scripture to fit your ego, thus won't accept help from me, a woman. There is neither male nor female in Christ.

 

[Phil W]

I thought I answered your questions. Apparently your communication did not get through to me as I may have misunderstood what you are trying to say. How does your post address my questions:

Which was..."Are you more interested in counting coup or in removing stumbling blocks?"
My answer is....neither.
Unless by stumbling blocks you mean false doctrines that accommodate sin in so-called believers.
Then, I am all about casting down the towers of those supposedly ensconced in reasons to keep offending God.

Biblical grace is the important grace. Paul beat himself up black and blue to get a desired result, but God told him His grace was sufficient. The examples of Grace you gave resulted in Lazarus being resurrected TEMPORARILY, the multitude fed TEMPORARILY, etc.

I don't see how you can differentiate between the 'two'?
Wasn't God's grace also 'sufficient' to raise Lazarus and feed the 5000?
Wasn't Paul's time on earth 'temporary'?

Isn't al grace 'biblical'?

God's grace, available through confession,...

Scripture, please.

...leads to sharing in Christ's work, being a blessing to the world.

I hope you agree with me in that sinners are no "blessing to the world".

True indeed.

 

[Phil W]

The new man exists alongside the old.

That couldn't be farther from the truth.
MY 'old man' was killed and buried with Christ at my baptism into Him and into His death. {Rom 6:3-6)
I am a new creature now; old things are passed away, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5:17)

Yes. It is Christ who makes me alive to God, but I am called to subject myself to Christ here in this life. If I was already now perfect in myself, there would be no need to be reminded, time and again, that I should flee from immorality, that I should subject myself to the Lord, and follow Him. [/QUOTE]
Because not all that accept Christ will last till the end.

When I am made perfect, in the Age to Come, there will be no risk of me falling away, for I will be perfect even as Christ is perfect.

The only thing that hasn't been made new already is our vessel, and it has no power to cause us to sin.

But I live now in this body of death, with sin present in my very members. And so I am at war with myself, the new man which is of Christ and the old man which is of Adam, at conflict.

Romans 6:3-6 tells us how to end that "conflict".
Kill the old you, bury it, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Hardly, God accomplished all these things. Our sins are forgiven, we have peace with God, we have been justified fully by His grace through faith which He has given us.

If one has yet to turn from sin, God has yet to accomplish His forgiveness or justification.

You're the one, however, treating repentance as something it isn't. So if you believe that repentance means becoming impeccable, then nobody has repentance. But if repentance is a good work of God in our lives, by which we are being transformed by the renewing of our mind and being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, then it is all which Scripture says it is.

I have turned form all sin, and I am not alone.
Until you have turned from all sin you are alienated from God.
Sin manifests a man is the child of the devil...not of God. (1 John 3:9-10)

Stop grieving the Spirit, repent and pray, for you are quite a sinner.

What happens if I "repent"?
Wouldn't I than be a non-sinner?
Isn't that the concept you are fighting against?

 

[Phil W]

Really? I mean okay.

"and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." - Matthew 10:38

"Then Jesus called the crowd to Him along with His disciples, and He told them, 'If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.'" - Mark 8:34

"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'" - Luke 9:23

"that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death," - Philippians 3:10

"So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come." - Hebrews 13:12-14

Nothing in those verses imply's that life is a cross.

BTW, When a man does take up the cross...where does he go with it?
He takes it to the place where he will be killed.
For us NT believers, that is our baptism into Jesus Christ's death. (Rom 6:3-6)
The results are written in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
It is true.

 

[Phil W]

@Phil W
Seeing as you believe you do cannot commit trespasses, how do you explain your failures to love at times? Are they not considered sin in God's eyes? Or would it mean you are not born again of the Spirit after all?

The Spirit helps us rightly divide the Word of Truth, because He IS Truth. You're not. And because you are self-serving, you interpret scripture to fit your ego, thus won't accept help from me, a woman. There is neither male nor female in Christ.

Is it love to allow a man to drown?
Or to be bitten by a viper?
Or to be dwelling in a doctrine that will cause his second death?
I think not.

 

[GospelS]

Some men/women are obedient, and need no chastisement.

Which one do you agree with?

After rebirth, no one would need any rebuke and chastisement since they never disobey/give into temptation anyway in the first place because they have the effects of rebirth. Therefore they will never need to repent again of anything because they won’t disobey/sin after rebirth. So those that get rebuked and need chastisement are not reborn yet.

After rebirth, some would disobey (temptation could lead to disobedience) requiring rebuke and chastisement. And some are obedient needing no rebuke and chastisement.

Note: The author in Hebrews 12 was writing to those who accepted the faith and are under the discipline of God. The author was asking them not to be discouraged when God rebukes and chastises, since He does so out of love as a Father.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Is it love to allow a man to drown?
Or to be bitten by a viper?
Or to be dwelling in a doctrine that will cause his second death?
I think not.

Huh? Trying to avoid the question with gibberish?

Let me ask you again. What do you call your failures to love?

 

[Phil W]

Which one do you agree with?

After rebirth, no one would need any rebuke and chastisement since they never disobey/give into temptation anyway in the first place because they have the effects of rebirth. Therefore they will never need to repent again of anything because they won’t disobey/sin after rebirth. So those that get rebuked and need chastisement are not reborn yet.

After rebirth, some would disobey (temptation could lead to disobedience) requiring rebuke and chastisement. And some are obedient needing no rebuke and chastisement.

I agree with the first option.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." {1 John 3:9)
Do you remember Jesus' parables about grape vines not being able to bear figs?
Those parables are shown true in us who manifest from whose seed we have been reborn of.

Note: The author in Hebrews 12 was writing to those who accepted the faith and are under the discipline of God. The author was asking them not to be discouraged when God rebukes and chastises, since He does so out of love as a Father.

Maybe so, but not all chastisement is because of sin.

 

[Phil W]

Huh? Trying to avoid the question with gibberish?

Let me ask you again. What do you call your failures to love?

Why do you consider "rescue" a failure to love?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why do you consider "rescue" a failure to love?

You know very well that I'm not talking about when you DO love. I'm talking about when you DON'T, as I've seen many times. What do you call that? God calls it sin. What do you call it?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nothing in those verses imply's that life is a cross.

BTW, When a man does take up the cross...where does he go with it?
He takes it to the place where he will be killed.
For us NT believers, that is our baptism into Jesus Christ's death. (Rom 6:3-6)
The results are written in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
It is true.

And yet the baptized are not rendered impeccable. Perhaps when they were baptized it just wasn't good enough, maybe God's word failed them in that instance. Perhaps God just isn't very good at keeping His promises?

Or, perhaps, Baptism doesn't render us impeccable. Baptism most certainly grants us forgiveness of sin, and cleanses us, by uniting us to Christ's death and resurrection--indeed, clothing us with Christ Himself--and through which we have received the Holy Spirit. But it does not render us impeccable.

Nevertheless Baptism is Baptism, God's precious Sacramental work which is of water and Spirit, by which we are born again.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

And yet the baptized are not rendered impeccable. Perhaps when they were baptized it just wasn't good enough, maybe God's word failed them in that instance. Perhaps God just isn't very good at keeping His promises?

Or, perhaps, Baptism doesn't render us impeccable. Baptism most certainly grants us forgiveness of sin, and cleanses us, by uniting us to Christ's death and resurrection--indeed, clothing us with Christ Himself--and through which we have received the Holy Spirit. But it does not render us impeccable.

Nevertheless Baptism is Baptism, God's precious Sacramental work which is of water and Spirit, by which we are born again.

-CryptoLutheran

1 Peter 3:21

 

[ViaCrucis]

What happens if I "repent"?

You have a faithful and gracious God who has promised you to forgive you. And then when you inevitably fail again, when you fall again, you drop back to your knees in sorrow and grief; and you still have the God who loves you, accepts you, and embraces you through Jesus Christ, who holds onto you even when you are failing to hold onto Him. You have a God who forgives you, you have a Savior who does not abandon you. You have a hope in the life everlasting that transcends the tribulation, turmoil, and struggle of this life. So that even as you are failing, Christ is succeeding. Even as you have nothing, Christ gives you everything.

You have Jesus Christ as your Savior, and you can trust in Him instead of trusting in yourself. He is Faithful, you are not. He is Good, you are not. Look to Him and Him only.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

1 Peter 3:21

Right, through Holy Baptism God saves us. As the Apostle St. Peter says, "this Baptism now saves you", not, he says, as merely some washing of dirt from our skin, but as "the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", what we have in Baptism isn't simply a mere bath, but a transformation of who we are, a new birth, we are new creations in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

Right, through Holy Baptism God saves us. As the Apostle St. Peter says, "this Baptism now saves you", not, he says, as merely some washing of dirt from our skin, but as "the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", what we have in Baptism isn't simply a mere bath, but a transformation of who we are, a new birth, we are new creations in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

The “doeth now save you” part is the same today as the hour we first believed.

Spoiler