Does white privilege exist in the US?

[Triumvirate]

Come on. You know what hue is.

No, please explain for us what you meant by that.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is true and when the concept of white privilege is presented in trainings and educational settings it is made clear that those of us with privilege did not choose it and cannot rid ourselves of it, therefore no blame is assigned whatsoever. It’s a lessen in compassion. It’s similar to conversations many wealthy parents have with their kids to help them understand that a lot of kids don’t have what they have and to keep that in mind and be modest, generous, and compassionate with those who
have less.

There are better ways to teach compassion, if that were indeed the goal. Most white people in the US don't have much compassion for people who are in their "tribe", how can we expect them to have compassion for people that aren't part of their "tribe"?

 

[FireDragon76]

To a point, sure - but that individualism blinds people when it comes to analyse collective problems. And again, the consequences for lack of empathy from black to white people are minor in aggregate when compared to the consequences for lack of empathy from white to black people. It is not an equivalent comparison.

I agree that individualism is a problem but I disagree that the only appropriate remedy is political action to radically restructure social institutions.

 

[Triumvirate]

I agree that individualism is a problem but I disagree that the only appropriate remedy is political action to radically restructure social institutions.

Most of the "but white people can be disadvantaged too" cases could be improved in the US at least if more public spending was made on lifting people out of poverty overall (even though there's a fairly racialised history contributing to why some nonwhite minorities are disproportionately poorer).

I would hardly call that that radical, it's pretty standard in most other countries

 

[Hans Blaster]

Apparently, creating "White Supremacy" and "White Nationalism" in order to stir up disunity didn't work out very well, so "White Privilege" is the new and improved version.

No it's a different term about a different thing.

"White privilege" = "I get benefits from being white not available to non-white people, including benefits of the doubt."

"White supremacy" = "I think white people are better than non-white people. They are intellectually/physically/morally/etc. better."

"White nationalism" = "I think white people form a nation and should hold power in that nation." (Also related to "white separatism" = "White people should live apart from non-white people."

White supremacy and white nationalism don't *have* to be together, but the often are.

"White privilege" isn't about thinking you're better, it's just about getting treated better, even if unconsciously, by others.

 

[Triumvirate]

Apparently, creating "White Supremacy" and "White Nationalism" in order to stir up disunity didn't work out very well, so "White Privilege" is the new and improved version.

Noone had to "create" white nationalism incidentally.

Ww2 springs to mind

 

[FireDragon76]

Most of the "but white people can be disadvantaged too" cases could be improved in the US at least if more public spending was made on lifting people out of poverty overall (even though there's a fairly racialised history contributing to why some nonwhite minorities are disproportionately poorer).

I would hardly call that that radical, it's pretty standard in most other countries

I support anti-poverty programs in general. The level of social inequality in the US harms our society more broadly, and it will only get worse with the rise of automation and AI.

 

[98cwitr]

What do you think causes people with black skin to make different kinds of choices than people with white skin?

I don't generalize to that degree. I think that skin color is irrelevant regarding people's individual choices unless forced/coerced to think that way, and even then people can see through that.

 

[98cwitr]

And structural problems limit what choices you can make. This bootstrap nonsense is really passé

"Structural" seems a bit of a misnomer. Can you provide a specific example of this?

 

[Triumvirate]

"Structural" seems a bit of a misnomer. Can you provide a specific example of this?

How do I put this more straightforwardly - poor people naturally have fewer choices, so it's not much use saying "just choose to live better" when one group has a statistically wider choice set than another. Structural problems aren't something most individuals can just better-choice their way out of.

Poverty tends to affect some nonwhite demographics to a greater degree as a consequence of slavery further back and generally just not caring as much about them to invest in them to same extent more recently.

 

[98cwitr]

How do I put this more straightforwardly - poor people naturally have fewer choices, so it's not much use saying "just choose to live better" when one group has a statistically wider choice set than another. Structural problems aren't something most individuals can just better-choice their way out of.

Poverty tends to affect some nonwhite demographics to a greater degree as a consequence of slavery further back and generally just not caring as much about them to invest in them to same extent more recently.

Ah so this is a broad economic topic I see. Being black doesn't somehow make you poor, and being poor doesn't make you black.

Not as a consequence of slavery, but as a consequence of Jim Crow. That is over. Let's stick to more contemporary matters please. We are 3 generations past that.

 

[Triumvirate]

Ah so this is a broad economic topic I see. Being black doesn't somehow make you poor, and being poor doesn't make you black.

Amazing, given that no-one was arguing that. Black people are more disproportionately likely to be poor. Noone is claiming it is automatic, rather that black people are disproportionately overrepresented in poverty stats.

Not as a consequence of slavery, but as a consequence of Jim Crow. That is over. Let's stick to more contemporary matters please. We are 3 generations past that.

Well, again, didn't argue that it was purely historical which is why I mentioned disproportionate lack of investment or general care in recent times, but the idea that there is some kind of automatic sellby date on whether history can affect the present is rather dubious.

It would be lovely to move on from this, unfortunately structural problems if left unaddressed can be quite long lived - multigenerational problems, one might say. I'm sorry that this is apparently inconvenient to talk about.

 

[98cwitr]

Amazing, given that no-one was arguing that. Black people are more disproportionately likely to be poor. Noone is claiming it is automatic, rather that black people are disproportionately overrepresented in poverty stats.

Seems rather irrelevant to categorize an entire race like that. We would want to delve into the individual reasons why a particular person is poor rather trying to look at it from a racial perspective. I think doing so would only fuel racist rhetoric. Any examples? They can be anecdotal.

Well, again, didn't argue that it was purely historical which is why I mentioned disproportionate lack of investment or general care in recent times, but the idea that there is some kind of automatic sellby date on whether history can affect the present is rather dubious.

But you would need to prove, at least provide some concrete evidence to bolster such a claim. We have ways to classify people using immutable characteristics, but that's a farce when it comes to then determining their individual behaviors (behavior can be driven by ideology which can be driven by an ascribed culture; which is mutable). If you want to discuss genetic predispositions we can, but no one has a genetic predisposition into poverty unless they have a mental defect of some sort that was hereditary.

It would be lovely to move on from this, unfortunately structural problems if left unaddressed can be quite long lived - multigenerational problems, one might say. I'm sorry that this is apparently inconvenient to talk about.

Can you give one specific example? That would not be a big ask given how rampant the claims seem to project themselves to be.

 

[stevil]

That's how affirmative action works in the United States. It purports to exist to even the playing field and help disadvantaged people of color, but in reality it discriminates against white people, including genuinely disadvantaged white people.

I'm not a big fan of affirmative action. It causes resentment, it also causes people to be cautious e.g. if a particular race don't need as good grades to become a doctor, then the public know about this and they seek to avoid doctors of that race (because they want a highly qualified doctor).
But I do see why they use it. It is a short term measure, to address the imbalance. In the long term it won't be used as presumably, once the imbalance is addressed then naturally things will remain somewhat in balance. I am certainly open to other ideas on how to address the imbalance.

It's very unfair. And people say "white privilege" exists.

Well, yes.
I hate the term "white priviledge" it is an awkward way to flip the term racial discrimination which happens to minorities. I guess it is an attempt to make the plight of minorities visible and a concern of everyone. It should be looked at a little tongue in cheek (IMO), but used just to realise the extra hurdles the minority communities as a whole need to go through.

 

[stevil]

Individual cases of black people doing well and white people doing poorly do not invalidate the institutional concept of white privilege. White privilege refers to the idea that being white affords you a general advantage in society. If you liken it to a dice roll, it's like saying that if you're white, you need to roll a 1, 2, 3, or 4 to win, but if you're black, you have to roll a 1 or a 2. You can still win if you're black and lose if you're white, but if you're white, your chances of winning are significantly higher.

I don't think it can be looked at from the basis of an individual.

A poor white with no power connections may have to roll just a 1. A poor black with no power connections may have to roll a 1 or a 2 (because affirmative action have added the 2). That white person isn't going to consider they benefit from "white priviledge".

But when you look at the top jobs throughout the country, they are dominated by white men.
Wealthy, well connected white males have a huge advantage on their minority counterparts. Also it is hard for minorities whose family line has had impoverished times e.g. slavery etc to get into money and financial independance.

 

[Sparagmos]

Try posing that question without the classist language and perspective...and we'll see where it goes.

It's already been pointed out that everyone in the country is not advantaged or disadvantaged on the basis of the color of his skin. Far from it.

It’s a simple question based on what the person I was replying to said.

 

[mama2one]

Learn How to Understand and Think About White Privilege



"These privileges also include not being interpersonally or institutionally discriminated against on the basis of race; never feeling afraid to defend oneself or speak out against injustice for fear of retaliation; and, being viewed as normal and belonging, among others."


"seeing and understanding white privilege is not about blaming white people for having unearned advantages. Rather, the point of reflecting on one’s white privilege is to recognize that the social relations of race and the racial structure of society have created conditions in which one race has been advantaged over others."

 

[mama2one]

continued...

"White people have the privilege of avoiding many of the problems that people of color endure. With this in mind, take a moment to think about the forms of privilege you can see in your life (if you're white) or in the lives of those around you (if you're not)."

 

[Arc F1]

according to the department of justice
Blacks are 15 times as likely to be ticketed for the same driving violations as whites
Blacks are are 5 times more likely to be arrested than whites for the same activities
Blacks are 800 times more likely to be shot by police than whites
Blacks are 18 times more likely to be prosecuted for the same crimes as whites
Blacks are 10 times more likely to be convicted than whites for the same crimes
Blacks receive longer jail sentences than whites for the same convictions.
Blacks are denied parole twice as often as white convicts

Does all of that stem from being in unlawful neighborhoods? The reason I ask is that when looking at whites that are arrested more it's usually in a housing project, trailer park etc. Low income areas tend to have higher crime rates. It's not that somebody is racist against the whites its that those arrested are just in an unlawful environment.

 

[Sparagmos]

There are better ways to teach compassion, if that were indeed the goal. Most white people in the US don't have much compassion for people who are in their "tribe", how can we expect them to have compassion for people that aren't part of their "tribe"?

It’s only effective with people who are already interested in being more compassionate. Most people I work with and in my circles think and care about how to be more compassionate, I don’t think it’s a rare quality. But I would never raise the subject of white privilege with a person who wasn’t already exploring the idea of systemic racism and shown an interest in understanding their own part in it. I use the idea of white privilege almost exclusively to think about my own privilege, to be mindful of it when I make judgements and am in group situations. Remembering that my experience is not the same as everyone else’s.