Does white privilege exist in the US?

[SilverBear]

That's as nuanced as every individual case. I can agree though, as mentioned earlier in the thread: It is better to have a poor, single mom who pours herself into ensuring her child's success and teaches them moral values rather than having two rich alcoholic parents that beat their child and care nothing for their education or well being.

Bottomline, statistically, having two parents in the home is by FAR a better metric for a child's success, not to mention the financial benefits and having extra support as a parent/spouse. My wife and I are raising two young children, and neither of us can imagine having to do this on our own, or having our children being raised by hired strangers. The point of this thread though is that this nuclear family setup has nothing to do with "whiteness" and everything to do with common sense. It has nothing to do with race, but a lot to do with culture. What is troubling to me is that many of my male peers still take the stance of raising children is "woman's work" and are not involved at the level that is required for proper fatherhood (in my opinion) to foster successful children; this again transcends race. Dads need to be active with their children, teaching and instructing, as God intended.

common sense says that extended families would be far superior to nuclear families

Research supports this to some extent. But research also shows that the difference between kids raised in two parent families and single parent families disappears when economics are controlled for. SO its really about financial security rather than number of parents.

Cooper, M., Pugh, A.J. Families Across the Income Spectrum: A Decade in Review 2020 Journal of Marriage and Family
Browne, A.P., Battle, J.Black Family Structure and Educational Outcomes: the Role of Household Structure and Intersectionality 2018 Journal of African American Studies
Amato P et al Single-parent households and children’s educational achievement: A state-level analysis 2015 Journal of Social Science Research

 

[KCfromNC]

Documented is one thing, assumed and presumed is quite another. If it's documented, show us the documentation.

Glad you asked - but I already posted an example of such in post 56.

For some reason various posts seem to be ignoring it. Or blaming the victim.

 

[rturner76]

Life isn't fair...

Let's say that you're describing the way things are and honestly, I'm not sure that's true. You're right, life isn't fair.

Let's imagine a solution where we force companies, schools, etc., to put people in those upper level positions because we believe they should be there....well then we're just being unfair to someone else, aren't we?

Someone who would have gotten that position otherwise. It doesn't matter what race or sex or gender they are.

The difference is that right now ....you suspect that it's an unfair system, that people are probably being discriminated against by race. If we change it....we'll know that it's an unfair system where people are discriminated against by race.

You are correct sir, that's why I say life is unfair. Affirmative action is as harmful as it is helpful. Companies that practice it will always have resentful employees and there will always be a cloud hanging over the ones who benefit from it.

I'm not advocating a government solution to the "unfairness" of upper management and CEOs in large companies being mostly white. The constitution does not guarantee "fairness" as a right, Equal is not the same as fair. What I do advocate for is that people in the high up positions that control a large number of people's employment just be aware of their tendency to hire or promote people who are more like them, challenge themselves to really seek the most qualified person based on merit, and recognize the benefits of a diverse workforce. Diverse being of different races, ages, genders, and so on.

There is something to be said for hiring people who you can relate to. You may likely have a better idea of how to communicate with them and manage them. There is also something to be said for hiring a diverse workforce who can meet the needs of a more diverse clientele or managers who can relate to a larger number of different kinds of people in the rank and file.

Change hearts and minds instead of laws.

 

[Fantine]

White privilege exists.

"Wealth" privilege also exists.

Affirmative action is meant to help people who have neither kind of privilege, and if it is used to help trust fund kids, it's being misused.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are correct sir, that's why I say life is unfair. Affirmative action is as harmful as it is helpful. Companies that practice it will always have resentful employees and there will always be a cloud hanging over the ones who benefit from it.

I'm not advocating a government solution to the "unfairness" of upper management and CEOs in large companies being mostly white. The constitution does not guarantee "fairness" as a right, Equal is not the same as fair. What I do advocate for is that people in the high up positions that control a large number of people's employment just be aware of their tendency to hire or promote people who are more like them, challenge themselves to really seek the most qualified person based on merit, and recognize the benefits of a diverse workforce. Diverse being of different races, ages, genders, and so on.

There is something to be said for hiring people who you can relate to. You may likely have a better idea of how to communicate with them and manage them. There is also something to be said for hiring a diverse workforce who can meet the needs of a more diverse clientele or managers who can relate to a larger number of different kinds of people in the rank and file.

Change hearts and minds instead of laws.

This is actually a reasonable and nuanced point....

Yeah I agree, I would like it if higher ups pursued more diverse hirings on their own.

I don't see any gain in forcing them through laws. It's been tried, the benefits are minimal at best.

There's a conversation that I think is avoided that needs to be had....and it's about what an endpoint of social advocacy looks like. For example, feminism has a goal of equal rights....where is the endpoint of that? It does no good for us to continue to push thousands of young women through college courses regarding feminist theory after that endpoint is achieved. We would create a generation that's looking for problems where they don't exist....and asking for advantages they don't deserve.

We can say that about any social advocacy group. If the answer is "we never have an endpoint" then you're describing a "problem" which either cannot be solved or is not a problem.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The question is phrased wrong.

It shouldn't be "Does it exist?", but rather "To what extent does it exist, and is it systemic?"

Obviously, one would have to blind to suggest that it doesn't exist at all. There are going to be individual police officers, hiring managers, judges, etc... who hold secret biases and allow that to impact their decision making.

To deny the disparities in certain realms would be wearing a pretty big pair of blinders. However, it doesn't exist to the extent and impact that the far left claims it does which they claim in order to be able to gain leverage in passing certain types of policies.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, there can be affirmative action. But this is considered to be needed . . . because of how white privilege does exist.

Would you ever be willing to forgo your job to a less qualified minority? You affirmative action supporters never seem to want to give up your jobs or college admissions to people of color who aren't as qualified as yourselves.

I have stayed out of work so someone else could get a job.

But, of course, I had enough so I could afford to do that. And I don't have a family to take care of.

If I did give place to someone else, God could take care of me.

It would not be only some one-size-fits-all issue, for me. But I hopefully would be trusting how God can work things out. And if I truly love others as myself, I could be glad for someone else getting blessed . . . especially if there has been a history of certain minority people being cheated.

Another item, by the way > with an example > let's say I were put aside by a black person being hired or advanced instead of me . . . the person could start less qualified, but then the person's experience on the job could soon enough make the person better than qualified. After all, there are employers who mainly look for experience. So, yes the person might start not very experienced, but experience could change that.

Of course, I think I have been told of a minority woman who got herself a job in a kitchen and stayed in the bathroom.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The question is phrased wrong.

It shouldn't be "Does it exist?", but rather "To what extent does it exist, and is it systemic?"

Obviously, one would have to blind to suggest that it doesn't exist at all. There are going to be individual police officers, hiring managers, judges, etc... who hold secret biases and allow that to impact their decision making.

To deny the disparities in certain realms would be wearing a pretty big pair of blinders. However, it doesn't exist to the extent and impact that the far left claims it does which they claim in order to be able to gain leverage in passing certain types of policies.

If it's just a simple unconscious bias then...

1. We can't possibly know the extent of it's impact.

2. It's not fixable. All research indicates unconscious biases can't be consciously affected.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If it's just a simple unconscious bias then...

1. We can't possibly know the extent of it's impact.

2. It's not fixable. All research indicates unconscious biases can't be consciously affected.

Correct, that was my point.

Obviously there are hiring managers who may have a bias and allow that to impact their decision making, but that's not something we can legislate for, and hardly validates the claim of some sort of "systemic issue". It's very tough to prove intent with certain types of decisions.

That was why I mentioned that it's not as simple as a "yes or no" question like the poll indicates.

There are certain areas still left in our country where Black people have it tougher than White people, and I'm sympathetic to that reality...but it's not in any areas where we can effectively address it from a legislative standpoint.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Correct, that was my point.

Obviously there are hiring managers who may have a bias and allow that to impact their decision making, but that's not something we can legislate for, and hardly validates the claim of some sort of "systemic issue". It's very tough to prove intent with certain types of decisions.

That was why I mentioned that it's not as simple as a "yes or no" question like the poll indicates.

There are certain areas still left in our country where Black people have it tougher than White people, and I'm sympathetic to that reality...but it's not in any areas where we can effectively address it from a legislative standpoint.

Check post #265 in regards to a point about a conversation we aren't having (as a society).

Do you think that the various unprovable manifestations of racism are a result of that?

Not saying racism doesn't exist, of course, but when we ignore obvious real racism....like racial hate crimes...for nebulous perceptual manifestations of racism like "implicit bias, white privilege, systemic racism" it starts to seem like the problem isn't really racism.

 

[98cwitr]

common sense says that extended families would be far superior to nuclear families

Research supports this to some extent. But research also shows that the difference between kids raised in two parent families and single parent families disappears when economics are controlled for. SO its really about financial security rather than number of parents.

Cooper, M., Pugh, A.J. Families Across the Income Spectrum: A Decade in Review 2020 Journal of Marriage and Family
Browne, A.P., Battle, J.Black Family Structure and Educational Outcomes: the Role of Household Structure and Intersectionality 2018 Journal of African American Studies
Amato P et al Single-parent households and children’s educational achievement: A state-level analysis 2015 Journal of Social Science Research

Financial security is a factor, but it's equally about love and structure as well; maybe moreso. I had extended family support, but not having a father around was detrimental.

 

[98cwitr]

Glad you asked - but I already posted an example of such in post 56.

For some reason various posts seem to be ignoring it. Or blaming the victim.

I read your link. It make some rather gross assumptions without factoring in the actual resumes; like where they went to school, GPAs, and prior experience. I don't see how you can put race into a resume, unless you're simply going off someone's name. I'm in a science field though, so maybe that is outside of my own bounds.

 

[KCfromNC]

I read your link. It make some rather gross assumptions without factoring in the actual resumes; like where they went to school, GPAs, and prior experience.

Can you quote which sections of the study describe these assumptions and what specifically you disagree with about them?

 

[98cwitr]

Can you quote which sections of the study describe these assumptions and what specifically you disagree with about them?

Because minority job seekers tend to respond to diversity statements with greater racial transparency, they may be especially likely to experience disadvantage when applying to employers that emphasize their commitment to diversity.

No data provided to back up claim; over generalization and vague.

Table 1 missing on page 10

Omitting experience

From page 12, there is no reason to list being a part of civic/social groups on a resume. This isn't a "white" thing, but keeping a resume to the point. I've left off my prior job experiences to keep my resume down to a page where it simply wasn't applicable for the job I was applying for.

As for the other reasons listed, you could literally remove the racial language/designations and it still apply, example:

In the real world I think people... want to have like an awesome black worker but they want one who they feel like fits within a certain box and like very much will conform and like lay low and just kind of do what’s expected of them and they’re not necessarily looking for the outspoken like political radical person. ...So I feel like to say that you’re part of [or]a member of the minority business and entrepreneur group is a different thing from saying like,“oh,I’m the political action chair of the Black Students Association.”

There's more...but I won't spend my time being exhaustive.

 

[KCfromNC]

No data provided to back up claim; over generalization and vague.

Read study 2, starting on page 15. Table 2 summarizes the results.

Table 1 missing on page 10

It is on page 7 of the PDF I have.

From page 12, there is no reason to list being a part of civic/social groups on a resume.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't have much to do with your claim that the paper doesn't discuss actual resumes, though.

As for the other reasons listed, you could literally remove the racial language/designations and it still apply, example

No idea what your point is here or how a direct quote from an interviewed subject means the paper is making assumptions rather than looking at real data points.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No idea what your point is here or how a direct quote from an interviewed subject means the paper is making assumptions rather than looking at real data points.

That's anecdotal....and therefore subject to it's own series of problems and not applicable to any other person.

 

[pitabread]

If there was anything that could demonstrate that white privilege exists in the U.S., last week's storming of the Capitol Building was it.

 

[Ken-1122]

I voted Yes. Being white, i know theres a good chance if i get pulled over that the cop will be strictly business and not give me a tough time.

Being black I know the cops will not likely give me a tough time either

I received a better education where i grew up then minorities did who live in Hartford which is only 10 to 15 minutes from where i live. Better education means more job opportunities

That's an economic advantage, not racial one.

The judicial system is biased. Despite the fact that the black population is i think less then a quarter of Americas total population, there are far more blacks in prison then there are whites

Naaw there are far more whites in prison than blacks.
BOP Statistics: Inmate Race

If im driving through the city its possible that i might see 8 or 9 people who are hispanic or black before i see a white person. They live in a far more dangerous environment then i do

Again; economic privilege not racial.

Racism and oppression do most certainly exist in America

I think it was Candace Owes said it best when she said
"The black Conservative is a thorn in the side of the white liberal because we don't see ourselves as oppressed, we don't see ourselves as victims, we see ourselves as their equal; and they can't stand that!

 

[Ken-1122]

Imagine this: there is an unprivileged white student who lives in a trailer park. Despite his lower socio-economic status, he does well in school and scores high on the SAT/ACT.

Meanwhile there is a a privileged black student whose parents are millionaires. Despite having access to all sorts of resources, he does okay in school and scores not as high on the SAT/ACT as the white trailer park student.

Both of these students apply to the same university. The less qualified, privileged black gets accepted, but the more qualified, unprivileged white gets rejected.

That's how affirmative action works in the United States. It purports to exist to even the playing field and help disadvantaged people of color, but in reality it discriminates against white people, including genuinely disadvantaged white people. It's very unfair. And people say "white privilege" exists.

Here is another example. In the NFL 70% of the athletes are black. No one is saying we should have more diversity in the NFL and implement quotas for more white, Hispanic, and Asian players. Meanwhile 75% of all NFL coaches are white, and people are saying that is a major problem that needs to be fixed by creating incentives for teams to hire less qualified coaches of color. You can read about it here: NFL owners table proposal incentivizing hires of minority coaches, GMs (usatoday.com)

So let me get this straight... White privilege purports to exists in the US. Yet everyone thinks it's okay when 70% of NFL players are black, but having 75% of all NFL coaches being white is somehow a problem that needs to be corrected. Are you kidding me?

Both examples I listed sound like black privilege.

Does white privilege exist? Yes; but so does black privilege, brown privilege, male, female, gay, straight, tall short, and countless other privileges exist. I believe whatever it is about you that distinguishes you from another person will at times be to your advantage, and other times will be to your disadvantage. The problem is when some people will only see advantages in others without seeing the advantage he has, but only think he has disadvantages.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

If there was anything that could demonstrate that white privilege exists in the U.S., last week's storming of the Capitol Building was it.

Ashli Babbitt's death was a negation of the concept of white privilege...

...how many BLM rioters have ever been shot dead by the police?