Does this Verse Disprove the Calvinist Doctrine of Iressistable Grace?

[nobdysfool]

Ben, do you have a comprehension problem? I have watched over time here as again and again you trot out the same old tired, worn out, REFUTED arguments, as though nothing had been said against them, as though you had not been taken to task for them, and shown beyond a doubt that your perceptions are wrong. Yet you stubbornly insist on holding to and trying to teach others these same discredited and unbiblical teachings.

I can see that you deny the total depravity and guilt of man before God for sin, you do not understand the position and the rest given the Christian in Christ, and you hold a very Catholic view of works and sanctification. You have this crazy idea that Christians lose the Holy Spirit every time they sin, which is tantamount to saying that every Christian loses his salvation on a daily, if not hourly basis. You place all the responsibility for the Christian's sanctification on himself alone. You do not understand how Christ's Righteousness is imputed to us, nor how it is that righteousness which keeps us and preserves us when we do sin. You have systematically denied nearly every doctrine of the Reformation, and yet you want to be seen as learned and an able instructor of others. You are a terrible greek scholar, and have a tendency to reword and twist the things others say in trying to correct your understanding. It's almost like a dyslexia of the spirit. You can't even quote scripture properly.

I really am very saddened by your refusal to be corrected or to yield to what the Word says, rather than what you want it to say. Frumanchu has been very patient with you, covering these things over and over again, and you still persist in your errors. Brother, I beg you, please quit trying to defend yourself, and just listen, think, and pray. You have need of real teaching from the Holy Spirit, and I pray He opens the eyes of your understanding.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, you've been called out on this numerous times. You seem bent on pushing a parable well beyond its intended limits. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, even 'Arminian' commentators do not believe this parable illustrates loss of salvation.

I'm afraid the parable says, "received joyfully and believed for a while, but fell away." There is no way to not-consider this illustrative of "loss-of-salvation". They BELIEVED. They FELL AWAY. The Calvinist asserts "but they demonstrated their belief was FALSE, by their non-perseverance --- this is proving the assertion with the conclusion. Nothing here to even HINT that they had "false belief".

Nobody, least of all Calvinists, said we have no part in receiving and abiding in our salvation. Blatant misrepresentation.

You only CALL it "misrepresentation" because you contend that FAITH IS VOLUNTARY. This while believing that faith and perseverance flow invariably-irresistibly from the regenerated heart. First you admit that God INSTILLS regeneration, then you admit that this regeneration leads ONLY to saved-faith and perseverance, but you claim that faith is FULLY VOLUNTARY and we have EVERYTHING to do with it. And if anyone suggests different, you use words like "libel" and "deceit" and "misrepresentation"; but the misrepresentation is really you, misrepresenting me, isn't it? I have NEVER said those words of you, NEVER reported you, NEVER had hostility towards you, have I?

We believe that God is longsuffering towards us even when we struggle with sins, and that by His grace He will preserve us and restore us, not leaving us to perish. Our sanctification is synergistic.

I'm afraid that's not what you believe, Fru. Your view is that sanctification and perseverance and faith itself, flow FROM the "unilateral regeneration" --- deny it. Simply stated, someone that God elects WILL be faithful, WILL persevere, WILL increase in sanctification; it is irresistible, unavoidable, invariable. By stating "it's our will, we participate, it's synergy" --- you deny your view that it all comes from and cannot be avoided as the consequence of that "Unilateral Regeneration".

That is perfect representation, not misrepresentation.

"The REGENRATE cannot become UNREGENERATE, what God began He will bring to completion".
If I am misrepresenting you, then you will deny this statement. Will you deny it?

You see, Bulldog, when Jesus said "nobody can come to Me except the Father draw him" and "no one can come to me except it be granted him from the Father" it's really just "hypothetical, can't really happen (that someone is not drawn or granted), merely fatherly bugbear."

What Fru overlooks, Bulldog, is that "God drawing the elect" does not preclude God also drawing those who WILL NOT believe". And it does not deny that "all who come to Jesus, are believers; it is THROUGH belief that they COME to Jesus."

"For by grace THROUGH FAITH (BELIEF) you have been saved"...

Oh, how wonderfully John 10:25-30 fits with John 8:42-47, John 6:44-46 and 1 John 2:19. They do not hear Him because they are not of God (8:47). They don’t understand because they are not able to listen (8:43). They do not hear because they are not of His sheep (10:26). Nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws them (6:44). Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Him (6:45). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him (10:27). If they do not continue with them, they were never of them (1 Jn 2:19).

Bulldog, I ask you to consider this with prayer and an open mind. Let's look at the verses Fru just shared:

Jn10:24-30: "'Are You the Messiah?' 'I told you (that I am the Messiah) and you do not believe (that I am the Messiah). You do not believe (that I am the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep.

(Jn10:9: "If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me he shall be saved, go in & come out & find pasture [become My sheep, anyone who believes]") My sheep (those who believe in Me) hear My voice and I know them and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish (Jn5:12 "He who HAS the Son HAS the eternal life"; 2Jn1:9 "Anyone who goes TOO FAR and does not abide in Jesus' teachinsgs, has NOT God"); no one can SNATCH ("harpazo--seize, remove with force) you from My hand."

Jn8:42-47 "If God WERE your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God. (saying, 'if you believed in God like you SAY you do, then you WOULD believe in Me.') Why do you not understand? Because you cannot hear. (You cannot hear because) you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires." Contrast this with Jn5:39-47, "you are UNWILLING to come to Me that you may have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek man's glory and not God's? You say you are of Moses; but if you HAD believed him, then you would believe Me, for He wrote of Me; but Moses will accuse you who DO NOT REALLY BELEIVE MOSES."

If they do not continue with them, they were never of them (1 Jn 2:19) This verse speaks of certain antichrists; it does not say "anyone who goes from you was never of you"; in fact, in 1Jn2:26-29 warns against "deceivers that are trying to get you to NOT-ABIDE in Jesus." Does this read as though "NOT-ABIDING cannot occur"? This (26-29) is mirror-image of 2Jn1:7-9, warning against antichrists trying to deceive us that we "not-abide-in-Him-or-His-teachings"...

The meaning is abundantly clear. Nobody can come unless He is drawn (44), he who does come will NEVER hunger or thirst (35).

True. In saying "I am God", Jesus said: "Anyone who comes to Me WAS drawn, I AM GOD'S PLAN!"; Jesus does NOT say "he who does NOT come to Me was NOT drawn". Verse 45 says: "ALL shall be taught by God". But it also says, "Those who have heard, AND LEARNED come to Me."

This passage stands as a bulwark against denial of man's total inability, God's sovereignty in election, the intent of the atonement, the efficiency of His grace, and the preservation of those He has redeemed . But "this is a hard saying; who can understand it?" (v60)

I'm afraid it doesn't "stand as a bulwark (defensive wall, rampart) against "everyone is truly called to salvation". And it's easy to understand...

False. Those whom the Father gives to the Son WILL come to Him (v37). You could not be more clearly wrong, Ben.

It's true, Fru. Show me how it even HINTS that "they were not believers-seeking-God WHEN God gave them to Jesus". At the MOMENT they were given to Jesus, they either WERE beleivers, or they believed AFTER they were given. Show me the verse that suggests "belief AFTER giving".

The Father's will was to give a certain number of people (the elect) to the Son

Only because you redefine "everyone" and "all" to mean "SOME".
Jn10:9 "If TIS-ANYONE (only some-few-elect) enters through Me he shall be saved."
Jn6:40 "The will-desire is that EVERYONE (some-few-elect) who sees & believes may have eternal life"
Rom10:13 "EVERYONE (some-few-elect) who calls on the name of the Lord saved"
Rom5:18 "SO THEN condemnation came to all (all), EVEN SO justification came to all (some-few-elect)".
Rev22:17 "Let O-THELOS-WHOSOVER-WILL (only some few elect WILL want to) take of the water of life freely."

He does NOT desire all to be saved (only desiring those whom He ELECTS).
I agree.

"This is good and acceptable (praying for our leaders) in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL MEN (meaning all-some-few-elect) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4

No, I believe Jesus rightly called them out for their own responsibility for their unbelief. Unbelief was not imposed upon them or coerced out of them. You are painting the unregenerate as victims when they are wholly responsible for their own state. The righteous, holy, sovereign God has every right to rebuke them.

No He doesn't. If the unrighteous cannot AVOID unrighteousness, then God beats a cow for MOOING and GIVING MILK.

Their refusal to receive them is manifest proof that the love of God is not in them and the Word does not abide in them.. NOT the cause of it.

Context, Fru. 5:38: "You do not have His word abiding in you, BECAUSE you do not believe Him whom He sent." Simply stating once again that "if you REALLY believed God and followed Him, THEN you would believe in Me".

Belief is what saves, unbelief is what condemns. Throughout Scripture we are warned against unbelief, against deceivers seeking to hinder us from the truth, enticing us away from abiding in Jesus. The definition of DECEIVE, is: "to make a person believe what is not true". To be deceived away from God, is to believe falsity over His truth. Sin deceives us, deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines strive to deceive us away from God. Each of those "warning verses" must either be TRUE, or HYPOTHETICAL CAN'T HAPPEN, or DOESN'T APPLY HERE TODAY; or "warning about losing lesser-things-than-salvation-itself". That's the limit of the understanding, Scripture says one of those...

 

[augustine32]

So Ben, you have God teaching all yet only some hearing and learning from Him. According to your interpretation of these texts why do only some of the all that are drawn receive Christ? In other words why do some choose Christ and others don't if all have been taught and all drawn as you say? I don't think I have yet to hear a good answer to this question. In light of the fact that the Bible says it is not wisdom, strength, position or any other quality of the person that brings them to salvation then why is it some are saved and others not? What is it in us sinful beings that allows us to see our sin, our need of a Savior and to accept that Savior as our own through faith while others do not see and do not accept.

Oh, and don't bother with the "Calvinists assert" when talking of the parable of the sower since it has been pointed out that Arminians assert the same thing. Maybe you could say "a combined mix of Calvinist and Arminian scholars assert..." That is now another misrepresentation you are making.

 

[Ben johnson]

In light of the fact that the Bible says it is not wisdom, strength, position or any other quality of the person that brings them to salvation then why is it some are saved and others not?

Actually, "wisdom" IS mentioned.

"From childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to give you the WISDOM that LEADS to SALVATION through FAITH in Jesus Christ." 2Tim2:15

writings => wisdom => faith => salvation. Perfect reflection of "heard AND LEARNED." IOW, believed.

Why do some believe and some do not? Jesus tells us --- "This is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and (some) men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light lest his evil deeds be exposed. But he who practices truth (the others) comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Jn3:19-21

"If God were your Father (if you really WERE following God as you SAY you are), then you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God. Why do you not hear what I am saying? You cannot hear my word. (Because) you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires." Jn8:42-44

"You search the Scriptures, because you think they will give you eternal life; but they bear witness of Me; and you are UNWILLING to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men, but I know you --- you do not have the love of God in yourselves (meaning, "you reject God and don't really FOLLOW Him as you CLAIM you do"). How can you believe, WHEN you seek glory from one another and do NOT seek glory from the one and only God? (clearly, purely, CHOICE) Do not think that I accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe Moses, how will you believe Me?" Jn5:39-47

They CLAIMED to follow God, they CLAIMED to follow Moses --- Jesus said, "NO you don't, you're PRETENDERS; if you DID what you SAY, then you would love ME. But YOU seek HUMAN glory rather than GOD'S; you are UNWILLING to come to Me." 100% volition, Augustine.

What is it in us sinful beings that allows us to see our sin, our need of a Savior and to accept that Savior as our own through faith while others do not see and do not accept.

We are depraved, and deserve condemnation; there is no denying that. Yet if salvation is available to ALL, both the saved AND the rest of the world (2Jn2:2), if Jesus is the "Savior of all mankind, CHIEFLY/ABOVE-ALL (malista) believers" (1Tim4:10), then we are called away from depravity and given enough faith to believe. The "New Heart" that is placed within us (Ezk11:19-20) clearly conditions on turning TO Him and AWAY from abominations (11:18); those who STAY after abominations are in trouble (11:21). It's simply a question of conviction, Augustine. "Each man has God made evident to them" (Rm1:19). They are without excuse (Rm1:20). Those who are convicted and love Him, receive Him --- and are saved. Those who love evil/sin/abominations, run away from the Light.

Look at the anecdotal story in Acts 2: Jesus told them the Gospel; when they heard they were "pierced to the heart (smitten in conscience); 'WHAT SHALL WE DO?' Those who RECEIVED his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls." 2:37&41 They heard, and whoever believed, were saved.

Oh, my saying that "Calvinists assert" --- they do. If some Arminianists (of which I do not identify --- I believe in "Responsible Grace") also believe that, it does not change the truth of "Calvinists assert".

I have been accused of "misrepresentation, deceit, libel, bearing false witness, flat lying"; I have never used words (or thoughts) such as these to ANY of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope that we all realize the world holds us on TRIAL. Let our words (both yours, and mine) be full of love and grace; building and encouraging, NEVER hurting. Let the world see Jesus-in-us, and let them want what we have. Let all that we say and do bring only glory and honor and praise to Him whom we serve...

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, do you have a comprehension problem? I have watched over time here as again and again you trot out the same old tired, worn out, REFUTED arguments, as though nothing had been said against them, as though you had not been taken to task for them, and shown beyond a doubt that your perceptions are wrong. Yet you stubbornly insist on holding to and trying to teach others these same discredited and unbiblical teachings.

Here is the conflict, nbf; I do not believe I have been refuted by you, and you do not believe you have been refuted by me. Who is right?

I can see that you deny the total depravity and guilt of man before God for sin, you do not understand the position and the rest given the Christian in Christ, and you hold a very Catholic view of works and sanctification.

You see how I am accused of misrepresentation, and then you say this? I have stated my position often enough, you ask me about "comprehension". But I am happy to calmly and respectfully state it again. We ARE totally depraved, we have NOTHING good in or of ourselves; "apart from Jesus we can do NOTHING" Jn15:5

And, not that you would malign Catholics, but Catholics and I agree perfectly on "the forfeitability of salvation". Many Catholics and I agree that "works flow from the saved heart, and sanctification is through Jesus' name (1Cor6:11); we grow in righteousness as we mature in Christ."

You have this crazy idea that Christians lose the Holy Spirit every time they sin

Never said that, NBF; but I'm sure this is not the last time that I will have to defend myself.

Clearly, God does NOT want us to sin; He wants us NOT to sin. That we SIN, demonstrates He is RESISTIBLE. The moment after we sin we are faced with the same choice as the moment before --- to sin more, or to repent. One choice leads to separation from God, the other is to continue IN Him. No sin or sins condemn us, no "lack-of-sins" saves us; sin reflects our heart --- and we always have a choice --- abide in HIM, or abide in sin.

You place all the responsibility for the Christian's sanctification on himself alone. You do not understand how Christ's Righteousness is imputed to us, nor how it is that righteousness which keeps us and preserves us when we do sin

No, again this is not what I have ever asserted. Yes we have responsibility for our salvation, but our salvation is forever OF GOD, 100% accomplished by Jesus on the Cross. It is up to us to RECEIVE salvation (receive Jesus), and abide in Him. It is not RIGHTEOUSNESS that keeps us saved; it is "abiding in Christ".

You have systematically denied nearly every doctrine of the Reformation, and yet you want to be seen as learned and an able instructor of others. You are a terrible greek scholar, and have a tendency to reword and twist the things others say in trying to correct your understanding. It's almost like a dyslexia of the spirit. You can't even quote scripture properly.

Fine --- then let's make progress. Tell me your interpretation of 2Pet1:9 --- is this about a real person? Was he once saved (purified of former sins)? What is his current state?

What is your understanding of James 5:19-20? Is this is talking about a REAL SITUATION? Those who wandered --- were they once saved? Did they ever risk salvation? Is the "thanatos" speaking of Hell?

What is your understanding of those in 2Pet2:20-22? Do you see them as Fru does, "only APPEARED to escape but really were false, wicked, slaves-of-corruption? If so, how do you accomodate verses like Matthew7:16-20, and 1Jn3:7-10?

How do you understand Galatians 3:1-3 & 5:1-7? Are these REAL PEOPLE (and not just "hypothetical")? Were they once saved? What is their current state (when it was written)?

I really am very saddened by your refusal to be corrected or to yield to what the Word says, rather than what you want it to say. Frumanchu has been very patient with you, covering these things over and over again, and you still persist in your errors. Brother, I beg you, please quit trying to defend yourself, and just listen, think, and pray. You have need of real teaching from the Holy Spirit, and I pray He opens the eyes of your understanding.

Fru has not been that patient. He has reported me, has used words like "deceit and libel". I have not reported him, nor have I ever used those words. I truly believe that Calvinists seek after God, but have bought into a complex dogma that does not reflect the Gospel.

If you are "truly saddened by my refusal to be corrected", then that is a good thing. Answer the questions I just asked you HERE, concerning 2Peter, James, and Galatians. Not answering would demonstrate the very things I have been accused of. All I ask is sincerity, honesty, and participation.

"Real teaching from the Holy Spirit" does not conflict Scripture. Can I be corrected by you from the Scriptures?

Bulldog opened this thread asking if Matt22:14 suggested "not all sincerely called are chosen". I have presented many Scriptures that support just this. Counter what has been presented with Scripture, if you can...

 

[nobdysfool]

Here is the conflict, nbf; I do not believe I have been refuted by you, and you do not believe you have been refuted by me. Who is right?

Call it conflict if you want, but the issue is not whether I, or anyone else has refuted your teachings, as though it were our own intelligence or wit that has done so. It's the Word, Ben, THE WORD! THE WORD OF THE LIVING GOD! It matters little to me whether something I say refutes you, or whether it is someone else. I'm not putting notches on my sword handle. But I will tell you this: Insofar as what I say lines up with Reformed doctrine, and with the Word of God, I'm right, and you're not.

You see how I am accused of misrepresentation, and then you say this? I have stated my position often enough, you ask me about "comprehension". But I am happy to calmly and respectfully state it again. We ARE totally depraved, we have NOTHING good in or of ourselves; "apart from Jesus we can do NOTHING" Jn15:5

My remark about comprehension is directed at your seeming inability (whether deliberate or not, I don't know) to acknowledge when you've been soundly refuted, as you have been with Acts 13:48, for example. Any reasonable person reading these discussions, especially regarding that particular subject, can see that what you try to make that verse say just isn't there, either in the Greek, or in any of the myriad mainstream translations. "And as many as were appointed to eternal life (a prior state of being) believed." That is the sense of the verse, that is the way it reads in the Greek. You have been soundly and completely refuted on that point, yet you will not yield, or admit that you are wrong on that point. There is no Direct Middle voice anywhere in the Greek New Testament. It is never ever translated that way.

And, not that you would malign Catholics, but Catholics and I agree perfectly on "the forfeitability of salvation". Many Catholics and I agree that "works flow from the saved heart, and sanctification is through Jesus' name (1Cor6:11); we grow in righteousness as we mature in Christ."

Funny that you would take my remark as maligning Catholics, because I wasn't. I was just underscoring a point where you, as a "quasi-Arminian", agree with the Catholics, which underscores the fact that Arminianism is closer to Rome than Reformed doctrine, which was developed specifically because on the points of eternal security and sanctification, Rome teaches a works-based perserverance and sanctification, rather than a God-empowered and God-preserving and protecting security and sanctification.

You have this crazy idea that Christians lose the Holy Spirit every time they sin

Never said that, NBF; but I'm sure this is not the last time that I will have to defend myself.

But Ben, that is the logical and reasonable result of your question, where you ask how the Holy Spirit can remain in one who sins. That's where that line of reasoning goes. You may not have said it in so many words, but it was implied and implicit in your questions. What you fail to realize is the Christian's position in Christ. Every man woman and child on the face of the earth, who has ever lived, or ever will live is in one of two positions: in Adam (leading to death), or in Christ (having passed from death to life). The man, woman or child cannot switch by themselves. You can't suddenly decide that you want to be in Christ, unless and until God has callled you, by the determinate counsel of His Foreknowledge, not of what you would do, or of what kind of person you are, or what qualities you possess (which were given by God to begin with), but because He chose to love you and predestine you to salvation and adoption as a son of God. If God had not done that, you would still be in Adam, and rightly and justly condemned for your sin, deserving of Hellfire.

You don't have to do a thing to remain in Adam, and once you are in Christ, you don't have to "do" anything to remain in Him, either. God changes your position, not you. You can't. And while you were in Adam, you wouldn't have, even if you could. Born in Adam, you cannot escape it, unless God brings you into Christ, and once you are in Christ, you cannot go back. It's irreversible, and once truly in Christ, you will not ever want to go back. You cannot keep yourself there, because you didn't put yourself there. God keeps you in Christ, even when you sin, even when you fall short, even when you neglect His calling and Word. Every sin you have committed or ever will commit has already been dealt with on the cross, and is already forgiven in God's eyes. It's already covered.

The sin that you think separates you from God in the same way as you were before salvation is the warfare of a new spirit in an old corrupt body, nothing more. Sin will cease to be an issue once you are tranformed, in the twinkling of an eye, into an incorruptible, glorified body like unto Christ's own glorified Body.

Clearly, God does NOT want us to sin; He wants us NOT to sin. That w(e) SIN, demonstrates He is RESISTIBLE. The moment after we sin we are faced with the same choice as the moment before --- to sin more, or to repent. One choice leads to separation from God, the other is to continue IN Him. No sin or sins condemn us, no "lack-of-sins" saves us; sin reflects our heart --- and we always have a choice --- abide in HIM, or abide in sin.

And there you stated what you earlier denied,in equating sins committed before salvation to sins committed after salvation. The logical conclusion is that if you sin after salvation, you are, at that moment, no longer saved, i.e. as lost as you were before salvation. And this also gets back to an earlier statement I made, that you deny the total depravity of man. Why? Because you equate the condition of the person post-salvation and commiting a sin, to the same person pre-salvation, commiting a sin. You see no difference, you do not acknowledge that pre-salvation, he was incapable of not sinning, and could not choose NOT to sin, but only what sin to commit, whereas post-salvation, he can choose to obey the lusts of his still corrupt body and mind, to sin, or He can choose to obey the Spirit within him, and not sin. Post-salvation, he is NOT in the same dilemna or situation as he was pre-salvation. NOT AT ALL! Sins uncovered by the Blood of Christ most definitely DO condemn, and that is the beauty of the Atonement for God's People. Christ's Blood has already been shed, covering every sin you have committed, are committing or will commit, IF you are IN HIM, by reason of the New Birth. The sins that so easily beset us as Christian are sins of the flesh, born of the flesh, and are due to our still inhabiting corruptible bodies used to sinning and fulfilling their lusts. They do not reflect our heart, for our heart is in Christ, and our life is hid with Christ in God.

And you are dead wrong in saying that a person sinning proves God is Resistable. An unsaved man sinning is only him doing what is natural for him to do. Saying God is resistable is a slam on His Sovereignty, because ultimately He is Irresistable. He will do ALL of His Good Pleasure, and NONE can stay His Hand, or ask, "What doest Thou?" The sinner does not resist God. God resists him. "God resists the proud (a sin), but gives Grace to the humble".

No, again this is not what I have ever asserted. Yes we have responsibility for our salvation, but our salvation is forever OF GOD, 100% accomplished by Jesus on the Cross. It is up to us to RECEIVE salvation (receive Jesus), and abide in Him. It is not RIGHTEOUSNESS that keeps us saved; it is "abiding in Christ".

Au contraire, mon frere. We receive Christ AFTER God has regenerated our hearts so that we CAN believe, and even the faith to believe savingly is a gift from God, that our salvation might be sure, resting not in the efforts of him who receives, but in the power of Him Who calls and grants Grace unto salvation. It is wholly of God, 100%, to those whom He has predestined, and called, and regenerated by His Grace. Our abiding in Him is also by the Power of God. We are clothed with the Righteousness of Christ, counted as righteous at the moment of our rebirth, translated from the kingdom of darkness into the glorious kingdom of His Own Dear Son, joined to Christ as one spirit at the moment of our rebirth. We therefore abide in Christ postionally, and walk with Christ in continuous and progressive sanctification, putting off the old and putting on the new, being transformed by the renewing of our minds to prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. It is God who empowers us to do so, it is God who keeps us in Him, and it is God who will perform that good work in us, unto the Day of Christ Jesus.

Fine --- then let's make progress. Tell me your interpretation of 2Pet1:9 --- is this about a real person? Was he once saved (purified of former sins)? What is his current state?

What is your understanding of James 5:19-20? Is this is talking about a REAL SITUATION? Those who wandered --- were they once saved? Did they ever risk salvation? Is the "thanatos" speaking of Hell?

What is your understanding of those in 2Pet2:20-22? Do you see them as Fru does, "only APPEARED to escape but really were false, wicked, slaves-of-corruption? If so, how do you accomodate verses like Matthew7:16-20, and 1Jn3:7-10?

How do you understand Galatians 3:1-3 & 5:1-7? Are these REAL PEOPLE (and not just "hypothetical")? Were they once saved? What is their current state (when it was written)?

All in due time, Ben. I'm not going to answer those in this post, as it is already too long. But I will deal with them, as will others, in due time.

Fru has not been that patient. He has reported me, has used words like "deceit and libel". I have not reported him, nor have I ever used those words. I truly believe that Calvinists seek after God, but have bought into a complex dogma that does not reflect the Gospel.

Frumanchu has been EXTREMELY patient with you, but he will not give you a pass on ducking and weaving, and trying to avoid answering the questions. He has done a masterful job of poking holes in your theology, as well he should, because it is deserving of that, not being scriptural. If he reported you, I'm sure it was with good reason. He is not given to making frivolous and rash charges. You, on the other hand, have been observed on more than one occasion, to have misrepresented, misconstrued, and mis-quoted his and other's clear statements of Calvinist/Reformed doctrine, sometimes in an answer to a cut and paste quote, where it is clearly stated. You play fast and loose with scripture quotes, hyphenating and adding or subtracting words, and injecting your own meaning into passages. You have demonstrated an alarming lack of ability to properly parse Greek, and have been caught trying to cast about to find ANYONE to prop up your horrendous Greek translation and interpretation, and even misquoting them when it served your purpose. We've all seen it Ben, there are witnesses to it.

If you are "truly saddened by my refusal to be corrected", then that is a good thing. Answer the questions I just asked you HERE, concerning 2Peter, James, and Galatians. Not answering would demonstrate the very things I have been accused of. All I ask is sincerity, honesty, and participation.

Not answering in this post, or at your demand, only proves that I am conscious of the length of this answer to you, and I choose not to answer on your terms, but on my own. I will deal with them one at a time, thoroughly. Do not interpret any silence or lack of speed on my part as inability to answer, it is simply a matter of time constraints, and wanting to give full weight and due consideration to each. Perhaps I will start a new thread for each, so that they may each get the attention they deserve, rather than this verbose and lengthy and ultimately hard to follow method, which seems to be your preferred method of trying to overwhelm people with the sheer volume of your faulty doctrines.

"Real teaching from the Holy Spirit" does not conflict Scripture. Can I be corrected by you from the Scriptures?

Bulldog opened this thread asking if Matt22:14 suggested "not all sincerely called are chosen". I have presented many Scriptures that support just this. Counter what has been presented with Scripture, if you can...

Rest assured that you will be answered soundly and completely from scripture, and refuted just as soundly and completely, not only by me, but by others.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm afraid the parable says, "received joyfully and believed for a while, but fell away." There is no way to not-consider this illustrative of "loss-of-salvation". They BELIEVED. They FELL AWAY. The Calvinist asserts "but they demonstrated their belief was FALSE, by their non-perseverance --- this is proving the assertion with the conclusion. Nothing here to even HINT that they had "false belief".

Ben, it's a parable. Parables do not carry equal weight doctrinally, because they are used only to illustrate a point, and are not meant to be a doctrinal dissertation. You are pushing this parable WAY beyond it's point. I played that game with you for a while on this parable, but I stopped when it became clear that you insisted on making hard and fast doctrinal positions out of elements of the parable. Your refusal to accept that you cannot use a parable to establish finer points of doctrine show you to be unwilling to listen to others, so convinced you are that you cannot be wrong, even when shown to be wrong.

And Ben, your fingers are not broken. If you quote someone, have the integrity to put their name to it. When you click quote on another person's post, it inserts their name after "quote=". Since you delight in picking apart and dealing with just a few sentences at a time, or a paragraph, when you insert the bracket, follow the same format -

-where xxx is the name of who you're quoting. It's the respectful and proper thing to do. I do it every time, and so do most others. I do it because I don't want any doubt about who said what. You should do the same, and even moreso, since you are a moderator. Set an example, Ben!

 

[augustine32]

Actually, "wisdom" IS mentioned.

"From childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to give you the WISDOM that LEADS to SALVATION through FAITH in Jesus Christ." 2Tim2:15

writings => wisdom => faith => salvation. Perfect reflection of "heard AND LEARNED." IOW, believed.

Why do some read the Bible and gain wisdom and some do not? Is the reason that one is more intelligent than the other? That can't be the case because Jesus thanked God that He had hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to babes. Yes 2 Tim 3:15 is true, but their still remains the fact that God must reveal the truth to the one reading the Bible and He is the one that decides who will see the truth and who will not.

Why do some believe while others don't? Jesus tells us --- "This is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and (some) men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light lest his evil deeds be exposed. But he who practices truth (the others) comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Jn3:19-21

This simply illustrates the fact that those who do evil (loved the darkness, hates the light) will stay that way, they will not come to the light. That is the way we once were Ben. How is it that we get from hating the light and running from it to loving it and coming to it?

"If God were your Father (if you really WERE following God as you SAY you are), then you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God. Why do you not hear what I am saying? You cannot hear my word. (Because) you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires." Jn8:42-44

All were once of the devil and wanted to do what he desires. So what all of a sudden makes them want to do what God commands? Those who do not have God as their Father (are not saved) never want to do as God commands and thus they will never come to Him.

"You search the Scriptures, because you think they will give you eternal life; but they bear witness of Me; and you are UNWILLING to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men, but I know you --- you do not have the love of God in yourselves (meaning, "you reject God and don't really FOLLOW Him as you CLAIM you do"). How can you believe, WHEN you seek glory from one another and do NOT seek glory from the one and only God? (clearly, purely, CHOICE) Do not think that I accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe Moses, how will you believe Me?" Jn5:39-47

This simply shows that men are not only dead, but they have no desire to come to Christ that they may have life i.e. they either don't know that they are dead or enjoy being dead! Yes that is what they have chosen, but what can make them all of a sudden desirous and willing to choose God over death? I believe that they are made willing in the day of God's power.

They CLAIMED to follow God, they CLAIMED to follow Moses --- Jesus said, "NO you don't, you're PRETENDERS; if you DID what you SAY, then you would love ME. But YOU seek HUMAN glory rather than GOD'S; you are UNWILLING to come to Me." 100% volition, Augustine.

And your point is? I too believe that their seeking human glory and being unwilling to come to Christ was 100% of their own volition. How do their desires change to accept Christ instead of hate Him? The will only follows the desires and so their must be some change of desire in order to make them willing. Otherwise they will only do the desires of their father the devil.

We are depraved, and deserve condemnation; there is no denying that. Yet if salvation is available to ALL, both the saved AND the rest of the world (2Jn2:2), if Jesus is the "Savior of all mankind, CHIEFLY/ABOVE-ALL (malista) believers" (1Tim4:10), then we are called away from depravity and given enough faith to believe. The "New Heart" that is placed within us (Ezk11:19-20) clearly conditions on turning TO Him and AWAY from abominations (11:18); those who STAY after abominations are in trouble (11:21). It's simply a question of conviction, Augustine. "Each man has God made evident to them" (Rm1:19). They are without excuse (Rm1:20). Those who are convicted and love Him, receive Him --- and are saved. Those who love evil/sin/abominations, run away from the Light.

Did you at some point not "love evil/sin/abominations, run away from the Light"? What led you from that point to become convicted and love Him and receive Him? The carnal mind is at enmity with God. What convicts a carnal mind and causes it to desire what it once hated and thought was foolish? Are all men convicted when they read the Bible or hear the preached word? If you are to be convicted you must realize (be convinced or persuaded) that you are a sinner and have need of Christ as a Savior. What convinces you? Is it the written or preached word alone? If so then why is it to some the aroma of life, but to others the aroma of death?

Look at the anecdotal story in Acts 2: Jesus told them the Gospel; when they heard they were "pierced to the heart (smitten in conscience); 'WHAT SHALL WE DO?' Those who RECEIVED his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls." 2:37&41 They heard, and whoever believed, were saved.

But not all who hear the word of God are pierced to the heart. Why? 1 Cor. 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." The natural man does not understand his standing before God as a sinner because his mind is at enmity with God. His mind cannot be subject to God's law (Rom. 8:7) He cannot have faith because he is in the flesh and cannot please God (Rom. 8:8) He will not repent before one that he hates. He does not see his need of Christ because the cross is foolishness to him. 1 Cor. 1:18 says "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Notice that while we are perishing the cross remains foolishness to us. And notice that the cross becomes the power of God to those who are passively being saved. It is once the process of salvation has started by God's regeneration of our heart that we no longer view the cross as foolishness and come to accept Christ. Thus it is the Spirit who convicts us of our sin and shows us our need of Christ. And this conviction is logically discriminatory because if the Spirit convicted all men of sin then they would all come to Christ.

Oh, my saying that "Calvinists assert" --- they do. If some Arminianists (of which I do not identify --- I believe in "Responsible Grace") also believe that, it does not change the truth of "Calvinists assert".

You may have a different name, but your beliefs are closer to those of Arminias and his followers than most Arminians today.

I have been accused of "misrepresentation, deceit, libel, bearing false witness, flat lying"; I have never used words (or thoughts) such as these to ANY of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope that we all realize the world holds us on TRIAL. Let our words (both yours, and mine) be full of love and grace; building and encouraging, NEVER hurting. Let the world see Jesus-in-us, and let them want what we have. Let all that we say and do bring only glory and honor and praise to Him whom we serve...

I do hope that my words are used to build you up in the faith and will pray to that end. I fully agree that we must be patient with one another and willing to forgive past the 70 times 7 for our own profit and as an example to a watching world. Yes, and may Christ receive the glory when His truth is rightly proclaimed.

 

[Ben johnson]

Wow, Augustine; your posts are as long as mine...

Yes 2 Tim 3:15 is true, but their still remains the fact that God must reveal the truth to the one reading the Bible and He is the one that decides who will see the truth and who will not.

We may just have to disagree; I don't find in Scripture the idea that "He decides who will see". Even in verses like 2Thess2:11 ("God will send a deluding influence that they believe false") --- this is only AFTER they DID NOT receive the truth (2:2:10).

This simply illustrates the fact that those who do evil (loved the darkness, hates the light) will stay that way, they will not come to the light. That is the way we once were Ben. How is it that we get from hating the light and running from it to loving it and coming to it?

It's a question of belief. Do you think there is ONE person who is bound for Hell, who actually BELIEVES in the place?

All were once of the devil and wanted to do what he desires. So what all of a sudden makes them want to do what God commands? Those who do not have God as their Father (are not saved) never want to do as God commands and thus they will never come to Him.

If you base your theology on Rom3:10-18, you might think "it is impossible for a depraved man to EVER seek God" --- but you would miss the fact that this passage quotes Psalm14 & 53, and is a "lamentation" (exactly as Genesis6:5 is "lamentation". In the same way that Noah coexisted with Gen6:5, those who are convicted TO seek God do not violate the spirit of Rom3.) Besides, I think Jeremiah 29:11-14 ("seek Me and FIND Me") and Matt7:7-8 apply to us...

This simply shows that men are not only dead, but they have no desire to come to Christ that they may have life i.e. they either don't know that they are dead or enjoy being dead! Yes that is what they have chosen, but what can make them all of a sudden desirous and willing to choose God over death? I believe that they are made willing in the day of God's power.

But the Context is Jesus berating them for NOT believing. Why would He do that if He knew that believing was impossible? No, Jesus says, "You CLAIM to be following God; but if you really WERE following God, you would believe in ME. And if you really followed even MOSES, then you would believe in Me." That's the context, Augustine --- not: "You CAN'T follow Me because God hasn't CHOSEN you" --- but, "If you REALLY followed God as you SAY you do, then you would believe ME."

And your point is? I too believe that their seeking human glory and being unwilling to come to Christ was 100% of their own volition. How do their desires change to accept Christ instead of hate Him? The will only follows the desires and so their must be some change of desire in order to make them willing. Otherwise they will only do the desires of their father the devil.

It speaks to the reason they "are UNWILLING to come to Jesus", it's because they love HUMAN glory. Think about that --- Jesus obviously knew which idea was true (between "regeneration causes belief", or "belief causes regeneration") --- he berates them for seeking selfish applause rather than wanting to serve GOD (as they SAID they did). Does this whole conversation fit within a view of, "you CAN'T believe if God hasn't SELECTED you"? But doesn't it fit perfectly with: "You could DECIDE to follow God instead of just CLAIMING you do!"?

What led you from that point to become convicted and love Him and receive Him? The carnal mind is at enmity with God. What convicts a carnal mind and causes it to desire what it once hated and thought was foolish? Are all men convicted when they read the Bible or hear the preached word? If you are to be convicted you must realize (be convinced or persuaded) that you are a sinner and have need of Christ as a Savior. What convinces you? Is it the written or preached word alone? If so then why is it to some the aroma of life, but to others the aroma of death?

Well, first I take John12:32 at face value; it says "I will draw all men to Myself". This uses the same "helkuo-drag" as Jn6:44. So, if all are "dragged to the doorway", they can believe (walk in), or turn back to the sin they love. Belief comes from conviction, and doesn't always encompass 100% proof. If everyone in the world could VISIT Hell for even an HOUR, I guarantee the world would be FULL of Christians. I don't know why, but God says "blessed is he who believes, but has NOT seen". Jn20:29 Maybe the nature of love forbids compulsion in any form. But really, it is LUST that causes sin; love of the flesh, rather than acknowledging the Creator (such acknowledgment by definition kills the flesh and stands against lust).

But not all who hear the word of God are pierced to the heart. Why? 1 Cor. 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Look at 1Cor2:12: "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may KNOW the things freely given to us by God" --- here is another "undeniable sequence" --- they KNOW spiritual things, by first RECEIVING the SPIRIT. Extend the sequence, and they RECEIVED the Spirit by BELIEF. (Eph1:13, Acts11:17) So, to take this as "they can never know spiritual things like BELIEVING IN JESUS", is not the context. It is BELIEF IN JESUS, that MAKES us "spiritually aware", that MAKES us alive.

1Cor1:18 does not deny this; if we BELIEVE, then it is that belief that "makes the word of the Cross power to us who ARE BEING saved".

If it is the Holy Spirit that GIVES us "spiritual awareness", show me where the Spirit indwells anyone BEFORE they believe". I have just shown you here verses that speak of "the Spirit enters THROUGH belief."

You may have a different name, but your beliefs are closer to those of Arminias and his followers than most Arminians today.

There is ny denying that my beliefs are much closer to Arminianism than to Calvinism. But it's not "Arminianism" that I defend, nor is it "Calvinism" that I confront; the Scripture, I believe, stands by itself, without labels.

So, to say "Ben you need to perfectly understand the views you disute", is to misunderstand me; I do not dispute beliefs, I affirm what I see in the Scripture. If that disputes certain beliefs that others hold, then so be it; I believe Scripture prevails.

I do hope that my words are used to build you up in the faith and will pray to that end. I fully agree that we must be patient with one another and willing to forgive past the 70 times 7 for our own profit and as an example to a watching world. Yes, and may Christ receive the glory when His truth is rightly proclaimed.

An honorable and righteous desire, Augustine. On this, you and I, and Arminianists and Calvinists and all in between, have perfect agreement.

 

[frumanchu]

I'm afraid the parable says, "received joyfully and believed for a while, but fell away." There is no way to not-consider this illustrative of "loss-of-salvation". They BELIEVED. They FELL AWAY. The Calvinist asserts "but they demonstrated their belief was FALSE, by their non-perseverance --- this is proving the assertion with the conclusion. Nothing here to even HINT that they had "false belief".

NOR is there anything to indicate it was a true belief, Ben. You are missing the point of the parable. Other "responsible grace" advocates see this, why can't you? If the fruit of the Spirit includes perseverance, and these people have none (they immediately fell away under trial), then is it not reasonable to assume it might not have been a genuine saving belief in the first place? IIRC, you said in another thread that it is fellowship that saves us, not just belief because there are different kinds of belief. While I disagree with the first part, I readily agree with the second, and I have explained the different kinds of belief (notitia, assensus, fiducia).

You only CALL it "misrepresentation" because you contend that FAITH IS VOLUNTARY. This while believing that faith and perseverance flow invariably-irresistibly from the regenerated heart. First you admit that God INSTILLS regeneration, then you admit that this regeneration leads ONLY to saved-faith and perseverance, but you claim that faith is FULLY VOLUNTARY and we have EVERYTHING to do with it.

OK, let's apply your logic, Ben. God created us as human beings. Totally monergistic on His part, yes? We had no "choice" whether or not to be created. As human beings we are sinners. By our very nature we sin. Sin flows "invariably-irresistibly" from the unregenerate heart. According to you, God INSTILLED sin in us. This is a consistent application of the logic you just used.

So, do you admit that God INSTILLS sin in us and yet claim that sin is fully voluntary and we have everything to do with it?

And if anyone suggests different, you use words like "libel" and "deceit" and "misrepresentation"; but the misrepresentation is really you, misrepresenting me, isn't it? I have NEVER said those words of you, NEVER reported you, NEVER had hostility towards you, have I?

I'm still waiting for the link to the post where I used the word "libel." Surely a site search would not take that long, even over dialup.

No, it is not me misrepresenting you. I've given explanations and examples of the misrepresentations. You've tried to explain them away or reword them (often STILL misrepresenting me) rather than admit to misrepresentation. Admitting that you are incorrectly presenting my position does not mean admitting to doing so intentionally. As I've said before, I hold out hope that it was and continues to be unintentional, but it's difficult to do so in the face of such persistence. As you've stated before, such things are not conducive to cognizant discussion.

I'm afraid that's not what you believe, Fru. Your view is that sanctification and perseverance and faith itself, flow FROM the "unilateral regeneration" --- deny it. Simply stated, someone that God elects WILL be faithful, WILL persevere, WILL increase in sanctification; it is irresistible, unavoidable, invariable. By stating "it's our will, we participate, it's synergy" --- you deny your view that it all comes from and cannot be avoided as the consequence of that "Unilateral Regeneration".

That is perfect representation, not misrepresentation.

"The REGENRATE cannot become UNREGENERATE, what God began He will bring to completion".

See, now you wonder why I would become at all defensive when you steadfastly tell me 'no, that is not what you really believe, even though it's what you just said. I know what you really believe and I'm going to tell you what you really believe, and then I'm going to build my case against it.'

I deny it. In fact I do not believe that perseverance and sanctification flow merely from regeneration, only faith. To be sure, the unregenerate person cannot be and is not sanctified, and does not persevere...how can one be sanctified while they are still dead in sins? How can one persevere in a faith he does not possess? These things require regeneration, but they don't "flow from" regeneration nor is regeneration what causes them.

See, your last statement here wasn't what you've been saying. I agree with the last statement because it rightly places the source of the process as a whole upon God. Salvation is of the Lord. I think part of the reason we are having this problem is that you don't understand differences and causality and the implications each type holds. Without the differentiation, two statements can appear completely contradictory, when in fact they are both true because they do not speak on the same level or in the same manner. A good example without using causality is the doctrine of the Trinity. Without differentiation, the statements "God is three" and "God is one" are contradictory. But when you differentiate and explain that you mean "God is three in person" and "God is one in essence" then you no longer have a contradiction. You may have a paradox in some cases, but no contradiction.

Like I said, it may very well be that you don't realize you are misrepresenting me a lot of the time. I'm trying to explain as clearly as I can.

If I am misrepresenting you, then you will deny this statement. Will you deny it?

The last statement I agree with, but I don't see it as being consistent with the other statements you had made, and I tried to explain why.

What Fru overlooks, Bulldog, is that "God drawing the elect" does not preclude God also drawing those who WILL NOT believe". And it does not deny that "all who come to Jesus, are believers; it is THROUGH belief that they COME to Jesus."

"For by grace THROUGH FAITH (BELIEF) you have been saved"...

The issue was never whether are saved through faith, but rather how that faith comes about. You have said it comes about essentially in the absence of spiritual discernment, coming forth from the carnal mind. What I was attempting to point out (albeit sarcastically) was that in the context people were not believing, and he then says nobody can come to Him unless the Father draw Him. If the Father draws all men (which is NOT stated anywhere), then why make this statement?

Bulldog, I ask you to consider this with prayer and an open mind. Let's look at the verses Fru just shared:

Here we go again.

You know, I feel I have explained this thoroughly enough that I'm not going to repond this time. Bulldog, if you (or anyone else) has questions about my explanation of these verses, feel free to ask and I will be more than happy to explain it again.

True. In saying "I am God", Jesus said: "Anyone who comes to Me WAS drawn, I AM GOD'S PLAN!"; Jesus does NOT say "he who does NOT come to Me was NOT drawn". Verse 45 says: "ALL shall be taught by God". But it also says, "Those who have heard, AND LEARNED come to Me."

There is a common saying that goes something like this: "There are no such things as bad students, only bad teachers."

There is no verse that says the Father draws all men. Nowhere. What you are saying is that the Holy Spirit is an ineffective teacher. That's your only recourse in this passage...do diminish the ability of God the Holy Spirit. Not only is He an ineffective teacher, but according to you (since you believe all men individually without exception are taught by God) He is essentially a failure because relatively few will actually learn and graduate! That is the logical conclusion I see from your position here.

I'm afraid it doesn't "stand as a bulwark (defensive wall, rampart) against "everyone is truly called to salvation". And it's easy to understand...

Thank you for providing that definition...I didn't even know what it meant. It just sounded good.

It's true, Fru. Show me how it even HINTS that "they were not believers-seeking-God WHEN God gave them to Jesus". At the MOMENT they were given to Jesus, they either WERE beleivers, or they believed AFTER they were given. Show me the verse that suggests "belief AFTER giving".

Uhh...do we need to go over simple verb conjugation? "All that the Father has given me WILL COME (future) to Me."

Only because you redefine "everyone" and "all" to mean "SOME".

This is the part where your arguments begin to fall flat on their faces.

Jn10:9 "If TIS-ANYONE (only some-few-elect) enters through Me he shall be saved."

Simple conditional statement: IF anyone enters THEN he shall be saved. Speaks nothing to who actually will enter or why they will enter.

Jn6:40 "The will-desire is that EVERYONE (some-few-elect) who sees & believes may have eternal life"

Simple implied conditional: condition of belief required in order to fulfill and be subject to the desire for eternal life to be granted. Speaks nothing to who actually will believe or why they will believe (under what circumstances).

Rom10:13 "EVERYONE (some-few-elect) who calls on the name of the Lord saved"

Simple conditional: IF one calls on the name of the Lord THEN they will be saved. Speaks nothing to who actually will call on the name of the Lord or why they will call on the name of the Lord.

Rom5:18 "SO THEN condemnation came to all (all), EVEN SO justification came to all (some-few-elect)".

Implied conditional: Condemnation actually contingent upon unbelief/sin, justification contingent upon belief. In context, speaks to issue of headship or position. Just as condemnation came to all who are in Adam (which all are by birth), so does justification come to all who are in Christ (which all are by rebirth and faith).

Rev22:17 "Let O-THELOS-WHOSOVER-WILL (only some few elect WILL want to) take of the water of life freely."

Simple conditional: IF anyone will THEN they may take of the water of life freely. Speaks nothing to who actually will will to do so or why they will will to do so.

I have done nothing to redefine those words (dare I call this a "misrepresentation?"). You have actually tried to manipulate these verses into saying something they do not.

"This is good and acceptable (praying for our leaders) in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL MEN (meaning all-some-few-elect) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4

Funny how your propensity for providing the Greek suddenly falls silent any time the word "ALL" appears in the English translation. The context of this quote gives ample support to the understanding of this verse as meaning "all types of men" or "men from all nations, not just Israel."

No He doesn't. If the unrighteous cannot AVOID unrighteousness, then God beats a cow for MOOING and GIVING MILK.

When I see comments like this I have to believe that it is only inconsistency that prevents you from becoming a full-fledged Pelagian, Ben.

Context, Fru. 5:38: "You do not have His word abiding in you, BECAUSE you do not believe Him whom He sent." Simply stating once again that "if you REALLY believed God and followed Him, THEN you would believe in Me".

Context, he says. Do you realize why that comma was placed where it was by the translators, Ben? The context of this verse is clear. They have the testimony of Scriptures, of Moses. They search the Scriptures, but although the Scriptures testify to Him they do not believe. The fact that they do not believe SHOWS that the Word does not abide in them, for if the Word abided in them, they would believe in Him. You have it backwards.

Belief is what saves, unbelief is what condemns. Throughout Scripture we are warned against unbelief, against deceivers seeking to hinder us from the truth, enticing us away from abiding in Jesus. The definition of DECEIVE, is: "to make a person believe what is not true". To be deceived away from God, is to believe falsity over His truth. Sin deceives us, deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines strive to deceive us away from God. Each of those "warning verses" must either be TRUE, or HYPOTHETICAL CAN'T HAPPEN, or DOESN'T APPLY HERE TODAY; or "warning about losing lesser-things-than-salvation-itself". That's the limit of the understanding, Scripture says one of those...

Belief is what saves? I thought fellowship was what saves. That's what you said.

Ben, here is what I really have a problem with in what you just said. You have a pretty standard set of verses that you cite repeatedly in support of your position. I have dealt with these verses on an individual basis, and the explanations vary. What you then seem to do is take a short list of the types of explanations "hypothetical/lesser things/etc" add something such as "doesn't really mean what it says" and then turn around and argue against the type of explanation in light of the whole of scripture as though I used one or the other across all verses. You say either these verses must be A or B or C. I say that this one is A, that one C, that one D, etc.

Regarding deception, I agree with what you say, all except your conclusion regarding people losing salvation. It seems to be incredible to you that Satan would waste time trying to deceive the elect knowing they cannot be snatched from His hand, but the fruit of false doctrines is readily evident in believers. It causes unbelievers to blaspheme God (which pleases Satan), it causes believers to struggle and feel guilty (which pleases Satan), it leads believers to be lazy and unproductive (which pleases Satan), and so on.

 

[Bulldog]

Hello Frumanchu. I have a question- John 7:17 says:

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Doesn't this speak of free will?

 

[frumanchu]

Hello Frumanchu. I have a question- John 7:17 says:

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Doesn't this speak of free will?

Free will in what sense? All men have free will in the sense that they are free to choose according to their strongest desire. It is the nature of that desire that places their will into slavery.

In the case of this verse, the context shows that it is speaking of who will know that Christ's teachings are of God and not of Himself (in the sense that they are God-serving and not self-serving).

"Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2083947#_ftn8 - John 7:16-19 (NKJV)

If a person "wills to do His will" (that is, seeks to do what pleases the Lord), then he will know whether the doctrine Jesus is teaching is from God or "on [His] own authority." This fits very much in with what is written in John 5 concerning those who are "of their father the devil" who cannot hear and do not understand. If they were "of God" they would recognize the truth of Jesus' doctrine, that it comes from the Father. If the Word abided in them, then they would believe in Him because the Word bears witness to Him.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Bulldog]

Does that answer your question?

Yes, thank you very much.

 

[Ben johnson]

This fits very much in with what is written in John 5 concerning those who are "of their father the devil" who cannot hear and do not understand. If they were "of God" they would recognize the truth of Jesus' doctrine, that it comes from the Father. If the Word abided in them, then they would believe in Him because the Word bears witness to Him.

John8. But John5 IS what I want to ask about...

"Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” - John 7:16-19 (NKJV)

This mirrors John5. Jesus said, How can you believe, when you seek glory of men, and not the glory of the one and only God?" This says to me that the REASON they won't believe, IS "seeking human glory rather than God's" --- (this against the "unilateral-regeneration" idea).

My question, is: the context has Jesus berating them, saying "how will you believe Me, when you won't even believe Moses"? Reflected in the verses you quoted from Jn7. What is it in these verses that leads you to see "predestniation", rather than "not wanting to believe"?

"You are UNWILLING to come to Me, that you may live".

 

[frumanchu]

John8. But John5 IS what I want to ask about...

My mistake. It was John 8 I was referring to.

This mirrors John5. Jesus said, How can you believe, when you seek glory of men, and not the glory of the one and only God?" This says to me that the REASON they won't believe, IS "seeking human glory rather than God's" --- (this against the "unilateral-regeneration" idea).

My question, is: the context has Jesus berating them, saying "how will you believe Me, when you won't even believe Moses"? Reflected in the verses you quoted from Jn7. What is it in these verses that leads you to see "predestniation", rather than "not wanting to believe"?

"You are UNWILLING to come to Me, that you may live".

There is nothing in these verses that lead me to "see 'predestination' rather than 'not wanting to believe" because the two are not mutually exclusive. Election is done in light of the fallen state of man by which man NEVER "wants to believe." We're dealing with this right now in the "Natural Man" thread regarding how one who rejects the things of God, doesn't understand them, and thinks they're foolishness would put his faith in them and believe. Who wants to believe in something foolish?

Regarding His 'beratement' in 5:47, the verse immediately preceding it states that if they DID believe Moses, then they WOULD believe Him. It's clear that those who believe Moses believe Christ, and those who do not believe Moses do not believe Christ. It is a reiteration of what was posited back in verse 38. Immediately preceding Jesus established the testimony of the Father to the truth of the Son. The testimony of the Father (His word) clearly does not abide in them, because they do not believe in whom He sent. If the Word abided in them, they would believe in Him. If they believed Moses, they would believe Him. Their lack of belief is not the cause of the Word not abiding in them. Rather their lack of belief is proof that the Word is not abiding in them.

How can one believe in Christ if they don't believe in or accept the things that testify to Him? This passage in John 5 to which you refer establishes the fourfold witness to the truth of the Son. If one does not accept the things which attest to Him, how can he believe in Him? This is why reject the notion that the carnal man who sees the Gospel as foolishness somehow accepts Him.

BTW, Ben, I am still waiting for the link to the post in which I publicly used the word "libel" against you. I cannot find it anywhere posted publicly in this forum, so unless you can show me the grounds for making such a statement I expect an apology.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Matthew 22:14 says:

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.


This verse seems to suggest that not all that God calls will be saved.

You are correct.

However, Calvinists have a way of redefining words whenever it becomes necessary. They will say this "calling" here is not an "effectual calling" but another kind of calling. This is the type of thing they always do when Scripture contradicts them. If you think about that, you can pretty well believe the Bible teaches anything you like if you can define the words however you like. So the word "world" at John 1:29 and 3:16 is defined how it suits them as well. And God's will is a certain kind of will at 1 Timothy 2:4. And so on and so on. The intended meaning of the author is quite irrelevant to them. It is what TULIP wants that matters and TULIP is a god to them which must be served at all costs.

JMW

 

[nobdysfool]

You are correct.

However, Calvinists have a way of redefining words whenever it becomes necessary. They will say this "calling" here is not an "effectual calling" but another kind of calling. This is the type of thing they always do when Scripture contradicts them. If you think about that, you can pretty well believe the Bible teaches anything you like if you can define the words however you like. So the word "world" at John 1:29 and 3:16 is defined how it suits them as well. And God's will is a certain kind of will at 1 Timothy 2:4. And so on and so on. The intended meaning of the author is quite irrelevant to them. It is what TULIP wants that matters and TULIP is a god to them which must be served at all costs.

JMW

You obviously don't have a clue. Take your lies somewhere else. Calvinists believe in Sola Scriptura. We also are aware that in order to determine exact meanings one must go to the original languages. What is not evident in English many times becomes quite clear in the Greek and Hebrew. What you say about Calvinists is inaccurate, born of a lack of understanding of Calvinist doctrine and the Reformed faith.

It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

You obviously don't have a clue. Take your lies somewhere else. Calvinists believe in Sola Scriptura. We also are aware that in order to determine exact meanings one must go to the original languages. What is not evident in English many times becomes quite clear in the Greek and Hebrew. What you say about Calvinists is inaccurate, born of a lack of understanding of Calvinist doctrine and the Reformed faith.

It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

What does the word "world" mean at John 1:29 and John 3:16?

JMW

 

[frumanchu]

What does the word "world" mean at John 1:29 and John 3:16?

Strong's 2889 (kosmos)


1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Wait...what did that last one say? Did Strong's agree that the usage in John 1:29 and 3:16 referred to "believers only?"

You see, words mean things, and some words can mean several different things.

Tell me, JMW, what does "world" mean in John 12:19?

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Strong's 2889 (kosmos)


1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Wait...what did that last one say? Did Strong's agree that the usage in John 1:29 and 3:16 referred to "believers only?"

You see, words mean things, and some words can mean several different things.

Oh really now? You think Greek works like English do you?

Your response is Calvinistically predictable.

When will Calvinists realize that the idea is not to go trapsing through the Bible to look for a license to assign a definition to any given word in a manner that suits their fancy, and their creed, instead of discovering what the author really intended?

Also, do tell us how Strong happened to know that kosmos meant "believers only" at John 1:29 and 3:16? How did he make this decision? That should be interesting to find out eh? Was he inspired?

Tell me, JMW, what does "world" mean in John 12:19?

Kosmos means "that pertaining to the created order." Thats why we have the word "cosmos" in English as we do.

What do YOU say kosmos means at John 1:29 and 3:16.

And do tell us WHY.

JMW