Does this Verse Disprove the Calvinist Doctrine of Iressistable Grace?

[frumanchu]

Oh really now? You think Greek works like English do you?

In what sense? In the sense that one word in Greek can have multiple meanings? Yes, I do. If you are going to argue that any Greek word can only have one single meaning, please state so for the record.

Your response is Calvinistically predictable.

Don't you mean Calvinistically predestined?

When will Calvinists realize that the idea is not to go trapsing through the Bible to look for a license to assign a definition to any given word in a manner that suits their fancy, and their creed, instead of discovering what the author really intended?

My point was that just the appearance of a word is not necessarily sufficient to understand what the intended meaning of the entire verse is. I happened to find it interesting that Strong's, which is a widely recognized and cited source, sides with the Reformed view in the two verses you provided.

Also, do tell us how Strong happened to know that kosmos meant "believers only" at John 1:29 and 3:16? How did he make this decision? That should be interesting to find out eh? Was he inspired?

You're asking me to speak for how, academically, Strong made the decision regarding the verse? I wasn't there when he did it. I don't know. Was he divinely inspired? If your implication is that I raise Strong's work to the level and authority of Scripture, allow me to take a moment and laugh...



For someone who claims to know so much about Calvinism you must have missed the sola scriptura part.

Again, the fact that Strong's, widely considered and cited as a scholarly and reputable source, agrees with the Reformed view certainly makes your position that much harder to swallow.

Kosmos means "that pertaining to the created order." Thats why we have the word "cosmos" in English as we do.

So are you saying that is the ONLY possible meaning of the Greek word kosmos and that none of the others provided by Strong's are valid or possible?

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Well it seems that you are trying to avoid the question at hand now.

Tell us what "kosmos" means at John 1:29 and 3:16 and tell us how you know for certain what it means.

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

The "many called" are all who hear the gospel; the whole Jewish nation and the Gentiles everywhere the gospel is preached. The chosen (or elect) are those who choose to accept.

And these are the ones who are the 'elect'. Those who chose to accept after being called.

"Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find." Matthew 22:9

If indeed after the first two times the 'invitees' didn't come, would there not have been another list of people who would have been invited? Nope, no list. "whomever you find"... Interesting....

~peace~

Exactly.

JMW

 

[frumanchu]

Well it seems that you are trying to avoid the question at hand now.

Things aren't always what they seem.

Tell us what "kosmos" means at John 1:29 and 3:16 and tell us how you know for certain what it means.

The "world" designates humanity in its hostility to God. This sacrifice is the only true atonement for human sin and its effect is not limited by time or space. The point made by “the world” is that Christ’s saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes will not die (be separated from God) but live in God’s presence forever.http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2105140#_ftn1

How do I "know for certain?" Because it's the only interpretation I find that does not contradict what the rest of Scripture says.

Now answer the question I asked of you:

Are you saying that ("that pertaining to the created order.") is the ONLY possible meaning of the Greek word kosmos and that none of the others provided by Strong's are valid or possible, regardless of context?

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2105140#_ftnref1

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Things aren't always what they seem.


The "world" designates humanity in its hostility to God. This sacrifice is the only true atonement for human sin and its effect is not limited by time or space.

"you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

"The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place had not yet been opened while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, fleshly regulations imposed until the time of reformation. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant"

"Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood.

"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? If the worshipers had once been cleansed, they would no longer have any consciousness of sin. But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world..."

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

"The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place had not yet been opened while the outer tabernacle is still standing, "

"the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh"

Seems you are quite wrong.

The point made by “the world” is that Christ’s saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes will not die (be separated from God) but live in God’s presence forever.

So John really meant, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the elect from all over the world." Right?

And, "For God so loved the elect from all over the world, that when the elect should believe they will have infinite life."

Something like that eh?

How do I "know for certain?" Because it's the only interpretation I find that does not contradict what the rest of Scripture says.

Now answer the question I asked of you:

Are you saying that ("that pertaining to the created order.") is the ONLY possible meaning of the Greek word kosmos and that none of the others provided by Strong's are valid or possible, regardless of context?

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2105140#_ftnref1

I am saying that this definition is always the basic idea of every occurrence of kosmos.

Strong has a propensity for claiming the "meaning" of a word is dependent on the situational context. In other words, instead of giving the core meaning of the word, he makes the mistake of finding the meaning colored by its application.


A similar mistake is made by Calvinists. They think the word used at Jn 6:44 always means "drag" by looking at how it is used elsewhere in the Bible becuase fish are dragged and paul was dragged etc. This is a mistake because fish are drawn and Paul was drawn. Do you understand that?

Of course, numerous scholars disagree with Strong's definition of the word kosmos at Jn 1:29 and 3:16. I also realize this does not matter to you.

JMW

 

[nobdysfool]

"you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

"The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place had not yet been opened while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. .... yadda, yadda

Seems you are quite wrong.

Seems you are quite arrogant. We cite our sources around here. Without a source for this, it is not worthy of consideration...

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Seems you are quite arrogant. We cite our sources around here. Without a source for this, it is not worthy of consideration...

Geen I didn't think I would have to tell you where these verses appeared in the Bible since you are quite the expert on the Bible.

Its all in Hebrews 9 and 10. Now consider away.

JMW

 

[frumanchu]

Seems you are quite wrong.

Why, because you can selectively highlight phrases in a few thrown together passages? Please...

I am saying that this definition is always the basic idea of every occurrence of kosmos.

And your source for that is....?

Strong has a propensity for claiming the "meaning" of a word is dependent on the situational context. In other words, instead of giving the core meaning of the word, he makes the mistake of finding the meaning colored by its application.

Look up a word like "run" in the dictionary and then tell me it's a mistake to rely upon the application and context to derive what it actually means.

A similar mistake is made by Calvinists. They think the word used at Jn 6:44 always means "drag" by looking at how it is used elsewhere in the Bible becuase fish are dragged and paul was dragged etc. This is a mistake because fish are drawn and Paul was drawn. Do you understand that?

Yes, I understand that. Next time I decide to draw water from a well, I will simply stand at the top and attempt to woo it to me.

The usage of the word is consistent throughout the New Testament (and in extant works): that of an ultimately irresistible pulling, not an attempt to persuade.

Of course, numerous scholars disagree with Strong's definition of the word kosmos at Jn 1:29 and 3:16. I also realize this does not matter to you.

Likewise, numerous scholars agree with Strong's definition, and likewise it clearly does not matter to you.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Why, because you can selectively highlight phrases in a few thrown together passages? Please...

"Selectively" huh? Those verses prove to the honest mind that the sins were forgiven WHEN Jesus died on the cross and the new and living way of approaching the throne of grace came AFTER Jesus died and rose again thereby totally disproving your notion that his atonement was effective for Jews during their lifetimes before Calvary.

And your source for that is....?

What kind of source would be pleasing to you? A Calvinist source or any other?

Look up a word like "run" in the dictionary and then tell me it's a mistake to rely upon the application and context to derive what it actually means.

Well let me explain more clearly so that you can understand. Strong made the goofy error of looking up how the KJV translated any given word into English and then decided that is what that Greek word therefore meant. That is why you see his list of meanings for any given word. Anyone who knows anything about translation theory realizes how faulty this is. It is this method of looking in the wrong direction that Strong implemented for himself. He retrojected a meaning back into the word instead of seeing how the core meaning of word extrapolated into the situation. Strong situationally loads the word. A good example how you do the same thing is shown below.

Yes, I understand that. Next time I decide to draw water from a well, I will simply stand at the top and attempt to woo it to me.

Been reading some more Calvy propoganda have you?

Try this out for size then. Drag away.

Let's first understand the word "draw." This is a translation of the Greek word helkuo which means "to pull" or "to draw." Here are some uses of the verb "to draw" (helkuo) from the Bible.

* "Over many years you did draw them, and did warn them by your Spirit through your prophets; yet they would not give ear. Therefore you did give them into the hand of the peoples of the lands." (Nehemiah 9:30 LXX).

* "O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine, your anointing oils are fragrant, your name is oil poured out; therefore the maidens love you. Draw me after you, let us make haste. The king has brought me into his chambers. We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine; rightly do they love you" (Song of Solomon LXX).

* "From long ago, the Lord appeared to me, "I have loved you with an eternal love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you" (Jeremiah 31:3 LXX).

The Greek word helkuo means to pull, draw, lead along. In the LXX it often translates the Hebrew word mashak (see Hosea 11:4). The Greek word helkuo is also used in the LXX at Ecclesiastes 2:3.

* "I searched my mind how to [helkuo] my body with wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3 LXX).

May Calvinists like to claim helkuo means "to drag." They do this because they envision that Paul was violently "dragged" into the marketplace and "dragged" out of the temple, Peter "dragged" in his nets, and James was discussing being "dragged" into court, and Calvinists like to define words from their imagination. However, we can see from the above passages that helkuo does not have the primary meaning "to drag." It means "to pull", "to draw", or "to lead along." When Calvinists define helkuo they are loading the word with a situation in which it was used. Since they envision Paul was forcefully dragged along, therefore helkuo means "dragged." This is word loading which means that one loads up a word with meaning based on the context in which it was used. For example, if I said, "The ball of the earth..." you could load the word "ball" to mean "the earth." However, the word "ball" is not defined as "the earth"; it simply means a spherical object and the earth happens to be a spherical object. The earth is a subset of spherical objects in a category which we define as "a ball." There are many kinds of balls and the earth just happens to be one of them. If indeed Paul was "dragged" (and we cannot be sure he was), this does not mean "helkuo" means "dragged." It simply means "to draw" and "dragging" may indeed be a subset category of different ways of drawing. God did not "drag" Israel with lovingkindness nor was the bride in Solomon's romantic phrases asking to be "dragged" to him. So here we can see from all our data, helkuo is not defined as "to drag" anymore than "ball" is defined as "the earth." It simply means "to draw."

Next, we need to take very careful note of Jesus' following statement because he makes this following statement to qualify what he has just said:

"It is written in the prophets, 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone, then, that has listened to the Father and and has learned, comes to me" (John 6:45)

Here we find Jesus telling us that those who come to him are those who were taught by the Father, have listened to the Father and learned from the Father. The word translated as "learned" is the Greek word manthano which is the word from which the Greek word for "disciple" (mathetes)is derived. So we see that those who are discipled by the Father, those who learn from him, are those who come to Jesus.

The usage of the word is consistent throughout the New Testament (and in extant works): that of an ultimately irresistible pulling, not an attempt to persuade.

Selected works? I daresay you have already been proven wrong.

Likewise, numerous scholars agree with Strong's definition, and likewise it clearly does not matter to you.

You mean numerous Calvinists right?

JMW

 

[nobdysfool]

Geen I didn't think I would have to tell you where these verses appeared in the Bible since you are quite the expert on the Bible.

Its all in Hebrews 9 and 10. Now consider away.

JMW

We still cite our sources, especially when they are from the newer modern rewording of the Bible. It didn't read like scripture. What was it? "Good News For Modern Man"? or the "Bible in Basic English"? Neither are good translations.

As for considering, I already have. Several conclusions are drawn which do not line up with more scholarly translations. And your theology is already showing signs of having more holes than a block of Swiss cheese. I am immediately suspicious of anyone who signs up and in one day generates almost 100 posts. What did we ever do before you came along? You're spamming the boards. You were told before that first impressions are hard to overcome. So far, first impressions of you are not good.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

We still cite our sources, especially when they are from the newer modern rewording of the Bible. It didn't read like scripture. What was it? "Good News For Modern Man"? or the "Bible in Basic English"? Neither are good translations.

As for considering, I already have. Several conclusions are drawn which do not line up with more scholarly translations. And your theology is already showing signs of having more holes than a block of Swiss cheese. I am immediately suspicious of anyone who signs up and in one day generates almost 100 posts. What did we ever do before you came along? You're spamming the boards. You were told before that first impressions are hard to overcome. So far, first impressions of you are not good.

Well if you think I am going to kiss Calvinism you are sadly mistaken. If that gives you a bad impression you will have to deal with it then.

Now, if my theology has so many holes in it you should have no trouble whatsoever dealing with it. Right?

Spamming you say? Should I not respond to those questions posed to me?

How about you quote the passages in question from your favorite translations which you have approved as authoritative for use by Christians. Lets start with Hebrews 9:1 - 10:32 shall we?

And then we can really have fun delving into the Scriptures.

ad hominem yourself away.

JMW

 

[LynneClomina]

JMW,

you catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

being rude is decidedly un-Christlike.

nor is it operating in His wisdom.

chill, bro.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

John 6:44

Let's understand the word "draw." This is a translation of the Greek word helkuo which means "to pull" or "to draw." Here are some uses of the verb "to draw" (helkuo) from the Bible.


"Over many years you did draw them, and did warn them by your Spirit through your prophets; yet they would not give ear. Therefore you did give them into the hand of the peoples of the lands." (Nehemiah 9:30 LXX).

"O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine, your anointing oils are fragrant, your name is oil poured out; therefore the maidens love you. Draw me after you, let us make haste. The king has brought me into his chambers. We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine; rightly do they love you" (Song of Solomon LXX).

"From long ago, the Lord appeared to me, "I have loved you with an eternal love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you" (Jeremiah 31:3 LXX).



The Greek word helkuo means to pull, draw, lead along. In the LXX it often translates the Hebrew word mashak (see Hosea 11:4). The Greek word helkuo is also used in the LXX at Ecclesiastes 2:3.


"I searched my mind how to [helkuo] my body with wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3 LXX).



May Calvinists like to claim helkuo means "to drag." They do this because they envision that Paul was violently "dragged" into the marketplace and "dragged" out of the temple, Peter "dragged" in his nets, and James was discussing being "dragged" into court, and Calvinists like to define words from their imagination. However, we can see from the above passages that helkuo does not have the primary meaning "to drag." It means "to pull", "to draw", or "to lead along." When Calvinists define helkuo they are loading the word with a situation in which it was used. Since they envision Paul was forcefully dragged along, therefore helkuo means "dragged." This is word loading which means that one loads up a word with meaning based on the context in which it was used. For example, if I said, "The ball of the earth..." you could load the word "ball" to mean "the earth." However, the word "ball" is not defined as "the earth"; it simply means a spherical object and the earth happens to be a spherical object. The earth is a subset of spherical objects in a category which we define as "a ball." There are many kinds of balls and the earth just happens to be one of them. If indeed Paul was "dragged" (and we cannot be sure he was), this does not mean "helkuo" means "dragged." It simply means "to draw" and "dragging" may indeed be a subset category of different ways of drawing. God did not "drag" Israel with lovingkindness nor was the bride in Solomon's romantic phrases asking to be "dragged" to him. So here we can see from all our data, helkuo is not defined as "to drag" anymore than "ball" is defined as "the earth." It simply means "to draw."

Next, we need to take very careful note of Jesus' following statement because he makes this following statement to qualify what he has just said:

"It is written in the prophets, 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone, then, that has listened to the Father and and has learned, comes to me" (John 6:45)

Here we find Jesus telling us that those who come to him are those who were taught by the Father, have listened to the Father and learned from the Father. The word translated as "learned" is the Greek word manthano which is the word from which the Greek word for "disciple" (mathetes) is derived. So we see that those who are discipled by the Father, those who learn from him, are those who come to Jesus.

Dragged?

* "O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine, your anointing oils are fragrant, your name is oil poured out; therefore the maidens love you. Drag me after you, let us make haste. The king has brought me into his chambers. We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine; rightly do they love you" (Song of Solomon LXX).

* "From long ago, the Lord appeared to me, "I have loved you with an eternal love, therefore with lovingkindness have I dragged you" (Jeremiah 31:3 LXX).

 

[rnmomof7]

Well it seems that you are trying to avoid the question at hand now.

Tell us what "kosmos" means at John 1:29 and 3:16 and tell us how you know for certain what it means.

Jesus My Wisdom

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19



What does world mean here ?

Jhn 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

 

[rnmomof7]

Just a reminder that name calling and belittling the beliefs of others are not permitted by CF

Please treat each other with respect

 

[rnmomof7]

Christian forums expects posters to show respect to each other in discussions.

Please observe that rule

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

If you just stop and think about it, Strong who gave that definition, had absolutely no way whatsoever of proving that is what the word "world" means in those passages. There is absolutely NOTHING in the original Greek text to indicate the word world means "believers only" in those verses. Strong arbitrarily defined it how he wanted. You won't find any proof anywhere for this defintion for these verses.

How about we check the definition of some other Greek scholars. Or will you only accept their comments if they appeal to your belief system?


Calvinists don't have any proof for that definition either. They just want it that way because it suits them. When we start defining words however we like in this manner the Bible becomes pretty well a pointless book to read. We could make it say anything. What we need to find out is what the author intended, not what we want it to say to fit our creed.

Conform your beliefs to Scripture. Do not try to conform Scripture to your beliefs.

What does world mean here ?

Jhn 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

It means the same thing as everywhere else. It is obviously speaking hyperbolically.

JMW

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

 

[Ben johnson]

John12:32 uses the word "helkuo".

2Jn2:2 says "Jesus is the propitiation for our sins; and not just ours ONLY, but also for the whole world (holos kosmos)."

How can that mean "only the elect"? It appears that "OURS" refers to BELIEVERS, and "whole world" refers to POTENTIAL believers. (Meaning, "propitation FOR the whole world, all who WILL believe.") Together the "OURS ONLY" and "WHOLE WORLD" deny "limited atonement".

1Tim4:10 says: "We have fixed our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, MALISTA (chiefly, specially, ABOVE ALL) believers." Here is another "double-identifier"; first it identifies ALL, and the presence of the qualifier MALISTA denies limited atonement. I know the response will be: "Only elect WILL believe" --- but if Paul really leaned towards "limited atonement", then this verse would read something like, "He is the Savior of ALL BELIEVERS."

First he says "ALL MEN", then affirms that only those who BELIEVE will be saved.

Throughout the Scripture is conveyed the universalness of atonement; one of my favorite passages (because of its succinctness) is Romans 5:17-18. Verse 18 says:
"SO THEN as ...condemnation came to all men,
EVEN SO justification ...came to all men."

This is an exact equality --- for every one (ALL) who is condemned, to each (ALL) came justification. Condemnation CONDITIONS on sin (Rm5:12 says "all DID sin"), justification CONDITIONS on belief (Rm5:17). Not all believe. (And not "only-believe-who-are-ELECT" --- that violates the "justification came to all" idea.)

 

[Ben johnson]

"only-believe-who-are-ELECT" --- that violates the "justification came to all" idea.)

Clarification:
If "they only believe who ARE ELECT", then justification REALLY only CAME to the elect. There is no reason to deny the "SO-THEN/EVEN-SO" equality with an idea that "ONE PAS MEANS ALL, but the SECOND PAS means SOME". That would ALSO violate the "so-then/even-so".

So-then CONDEMNATION TO ALL,
even-so JUSTIFICATION TO ALL.

Condemnation came to the ELECT, and the UNELECT (Calvinism says "only God's unilateral regeneration saves them from their came-condemnation); and justification came exactly as condemnation came --- to the elect, and to the unelect. But justification must be RECEIVED for the unelect to BE justified (to become elect). Why would Paul forget to include such a critical idea (if he shared it) of, "only the ELECT are empowered TO receive justification? The equality refutes "Limited Atonement", and denying that equality must happen with "write-in-understanding" (as I said previous sentence)...