Does this Verse Disprove the Calvinist Doctrine of Iressistable Grace?

[Bulldog]

Matthew 22:14 says:

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.


This verse seems to suggest that not all that God calls will be saved.

 

[kel32]

<thinking that this may be a Calvinist trap>

But, i'll take a stab at it! "The many called" are all who hear the gospel; the whole Jewish nation and the Gentiles everywhere the gospel is preached. The chosen are those who choose to accept.

I don't know the entire Calvinist doctrine, and I haven't heard of 'irresistable grace' before. Although, if it were in fact "irresistable", does that not mean also that we could never fall from grace?

"You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal. 5:4

~peace~

 

[frumanchu]

But, i'll take a stab at it! "The many called" are all who hear the gospel; the whole Jewish nation and the Gentiles everywhere the gospel is preached. The chosen are those who choose to accept.

Wouldn't it then be written "many are called but few choose?"

 

[kel32]

Wouldn't it then be written "many are called but few choose?"

Ah, but we must read the passage in the whole of context...

"Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those invited: "Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast."' Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.' The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.' Many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:1-14

Who do you believe is the 'man not dressed in a wedding garment"?

~peace~

 

[frumanchu]

Ah, but we must read the passage in the whole of context...

"Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those invited: "Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast."' Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.' The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.' Many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:1-14

Who do you believe is the 'man not dressed in a wedding garment"?

One who is only there for the food

Consider the following explanation:

22:1–14Although there are similarities between this parable and Luke 14:16–24, there are few verbal parallels and some great differences. They should be understood as different parables given on different occasions. The first part of the parable (vv. 1–10) continues the theme begun in the previous chapter that the heirs of the kingdom have rejected it, and the kingdom has been offered to others. God’s servants have the task of offering the gospel to all people (v. 9). The second part (vv. 11–14) affirms that receiving an invitation to God’s kingdom does not guarantee inclusion; one must be properly clothed (cf. Zech. 3:3–5; Rev. 3:18; 19:8). Although everyone who hears the gospel has been invited, and although many may claim to be in the kingdom, only those clothed with Christ’s righteousness are actually presentable to God. Only those who are chosen will be present at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and this election does not depend on any previous status (8:11, 12).

 

[kel32]

One who is only there for the food

Consider the following explanation:

22:1–14Although there are similarities between this parable and Luke 14:16–24, there are few verbal parallels and some great differences. They should be understood as different parables given on different occasions. The first part of the parable (vv. 1–10) continues the theme begun in the previous chapter that the heirs of the kingdom have rejected it, and the kingdom has been offered to others. God’s servants have the task of offering the gospel to all people (v. 9). The second part (vv. 11–14) affirms that receiving an invitation to God’s kingdom does not guarantee inclusion; one must be properly clothed (cf. Zech. 3:3–5; Rev. 3:18; 19:8). Although everyone who hears the gospel has been invited, and although many may claim to be in the kingdom, only those clothed with Christ’s righteousness are actually presentable to God. Only those who are chosen will be present at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and this election does not depend on any previous status (8:11, 12).

Not bad, but it would have been nice to see your own interpretation

I absolutely agree with you that the ones in the 'wedding clothes' are the elect. Where we will disagree is our definition of the 'elect'.

And I agree that the one without the wedding clothes was there just for the food....and cake...

~peace~

 

[kel32]

The "many called" are all who hear the gospel; the whole Jewish nation and the Gentiles everywhere the gospel is preached. The chosen (or elect) are those who choose to accept.

And these are the ones who are the 'elect'. Those who chose to accept after being called.

"Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find." Matthew 22:9

If indeed after the first two times the 'invitees' didn't come, would there not have been another list of people who would have been invited? Nope, no list. "whomever you find"... Interesting....

~peace~

 

[Ben johnson]

Excellent post, Kell. The very words "many called few chosen", demonstrates that not all called will be chosen. Nothing in this verse hints that the CHOSEN were selected by anything of the king; it was entirely of them FIRST RECEIVING the invitation, and second RECEIVING the righteous clothng.

The filthy-clothed-man came, but refused to be regenerated...

 

[LynneClomina]

Matthew 22:14 says:

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.


This verse seems to suggest that not all that God calls will be saved.

yep, the gospel message goes out to all, that is what i understand to be the "call", but He only chooses some to save. He only gives grace/faith to those whom He chose before hand.

to me, it only supports irresistable grace - because if everyone were given that grace, everyone would be saved. so the "call" cannot be equivalent to the grace that brings us to salvation. only the "chosen" get the grace unto salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

He only gives grace/faith to those whom He chose before hand.

I've never found a Scripture that even hints that "God does not offer salvation to all, He only desires a FEW to be saved".

if everyone were given that grace, everyone would be saved. so the "call" cannot be equivalent to the grace that brings us to salvation. only the "chosen" get the grace unto salvation.

This would be TRUE, if salvation was decreed. Can you show me a verse, any verse that says "God DECREES anyone's salvation"?

There is verse after verse after verse warnig of "falling from steadfastness" or "falling from abiding" or "being deceived away from Jesus". One would either have to take ALL of those as "hypotheticals, can't REALLY happen He's just spouting 'fatherly bugbears to keep us straight' ". (Either that, or understand that we can be "unsteadfast/fallen/deceived but still SAVED").

The fact that "many unchosen ARE called" in Matt22:14, with no indication that the unchosens' call is any different than the chosen's, demonstrates that His CALL is NOT a command.

Look at Luke 8:13, and see if you can detect any difference in how they began, compared with how those in verse 15 began? Isn't it the PERSEVERANCE of those in 15 that caused them to be called "good soil", and the FALLING (from persecution/affliction/temptation Mk4:17) causes those in 13 to be called "rocky"?

The question, is how can we read verses like 1Tim4:16, 2Pet1:10-11 (5-9), 2Pet3:14&17, 2Jn2:26-29, Heb2:1-3 & 3:12-4:1 --- these and many more like them (James 1:14-16 & 5:19-20, 2Pet2:20-22) --- and still think that we have no part in receiving (and abiding in) our salvation? (I hope you'll look these up.)

"As you have received Christ, so walk in Him." Col2:6

 

[Bulldog]

I've never found a Scripture that even hints that "God does not offer salvation to all,

John 6:65, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

 

[Bulldog]

He only desires a FEW to be saved".

He desires that all will be saved but He is a wrathful God, so he will only give salvation to the elect.

 

[Ben johnson]

John 6:65, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Hi, Bulldog. The problem is that this passage doesn't convey "EXCLUSIVE granting". What's the theme of that part of Jn6? Really, the whole point Jesus is making, is "I am God". Read verse 42 --- the Jews were saying: "Isn't this Jesus, didn't we see this KID grow UP? WHO does He think He IS?!?!" This passage mirrors John 14:1, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." In saying that "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him", and "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me", Jesus was asserting that "if you truly believe in God, then (because I am of God and from God, IE 'Messiah') --- God will GIVE you to ME." Jn8:42 says this: "If God WAS your Father (if you REALLY FOLLOWED Him), then you would love ME, for I proceeded forth and have come from God."

In that part of John 6, Jesus uses the phrase, "I will lift them up". Is there more than one group to be lifted up? No. One group:
1. God has given to Jesus vs39
2. Everyone who sees Jesus and believes (and may have eternal life) vs40
3. Those drawn by the Father, who then come to Jesus vs44
4. Those who partake of communion vs54

One group, Bulldog; and each of these descriptions are PARALLEL, not SEQUENTIAL. There are none that the Father GIVES to Jesus, BEFORE they believe. None who are NOT believers at the MOMENT they are "given to Jesus".

There are none who DO NOT BELIEVE, who are given to Jesus. Belief is the vehicle through which they are given.

Vs44-45 does not say "ALL who are DRAWN, will be SAVED"; it says, "everyone isi taught; all who are taught, AND LEARN, comes to Me." The "and learned" reflects vs 40, "all who believe". There is no dynamic that isolates them according to God's decision, they are only isolated BY their BELIEF.

He desires that all will be saved but He is a wrathful God, so he will only give salvation to the elect.

Think about what you just said --- I agree with that statement, He DOES desire all to be saved; But if He does, then is there any way salvation would NOT be AVAILABLE to all? Either He does desire all to be saved (so all can), or He does NOT desire all to be saved (only desiring those whom He ELECTS). Gotta be one or the other.

If election is unilateral, fitting the description of "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE", then those He desires TO be saved, WILL. Irresistibly. Making passage after passage of warnings that Jesus spoke, REBUKING them for NOT believing, making them all "sarcastic and insincere". "I'm rebuking you for NOT believing, but I secretly know you CAN'T believe because you're not ELECT and God has not REGENERATED you I'm just rubbing your NOSES in it and being OBTUSE 'casuse you CAN'T believe..." Do you really think Jesus had this attitude?

"You search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you have eteral life; but they bear witness of ME; and you are UNWILLING to COME to Me thatyou may have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek glory from one another and do not seek the glory from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, THEN YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME, for Moses wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE ME?" Jn5:39-47

Do you see? Not one word of "ELECTION" here, but Jesus berating them for being FALSE PRETENDERS; they SAID they believed Moses, and Jesus said: "If you REALLY believed Moses, then you would believe ME. But you CANNOT believe Me BECAUSE you seek men's glory and not God's." 100% their decision, Bulldog; 0% predestination.

All of Scripture fits the idea that "He really DOES desire ALL to be saved; it's up to the individual to RECEIVE the offer, or to reject it; to pursue God's glory or man's."

"To those who SEEK glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indigmation (at the righteous judgment of God)." Rm2:8

 

[Ben johnson]

BTW, look at the way Jn6 ends; Jesus uses the Greek construct with "ME" (pronounced "may"), it's a negative question that expects an answer of "NO". So Jesus asks in 67: "YOU don't want to leave TOO, do you?"

That it is a real question is clear from Peter's response:"No, Lord; we know You are the Messiah."

Look at Jesus' reply: "Did I not choose all twelve of you, and one of you is a devil?"

Is there any way to understand this, OTHER than: "I chose all twelve, and one that I chose, DID leave!" ???

The context conveys that LEAVING was a REAL POSSIBILITY.

Leaving would not be possible if we were "ELECT" by His choice. "OSAS", and "IRRESISTIBLE"...

 

[BBAS 64]

Ah, but we must read the passage in the whole of context...

"Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those invited: "Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast."' Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.' The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.' Many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:1-14

Who do you believe is the 'man not dressed in a wedding garment"?

~peace~

Good Day, Kel32

In the wedding feast of the NT times the King allways provided the dress and the apparel that was to be worn in honor of the Son. The ones whom lack the attire of the King are the ones with out the garments. All are invited, some are clothed by the King, some are not.


Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[augustine32]

What did Jesus choose Judas for? Was it in the same way He chose the rest of the disciples or was it so that prophecy would be fulfilled? Jesus knew that Judas was the one that would betray Him so it obviously was not a choosing unto salvation.

 

[frumanchu]

I've never found a Scripture that even hints that "God does not offer salvation to all, He only desires a FEW to be saved".
This would be TRUE, if salvation was decreed. Can you show me a verse, any verse that says "God DECREES anyone's salvation"?

Are you looking for a direct quote, or a verse that such a concept can be reasonably inferred from? Rom 8:29-30 is a great starting point.

There is verse after verse after verse warnig of "falling from steadfastness" or "falling from abiding" or "being deceived away from Jesus". One would either have to take ALL of those as "hypotheticals, can't REALLY happen He's just spouting 'fatherly bugbears to keep us straight' ". (Either that, or understand that we can be "unsteadfast/fallen/deceived but still SAVED").

No, they don't have to take ALL of those as hypotheticals, and I find it incredibly deceptive of you to create such a false dilemma when you have in fact been presented with explanations for many of those verses other than "mere hypthetical, fatherly bugbear.'

The fact that "many unchosen ARE called" in Matt22:14, with no indication that the unchosens' call is any different than the chosen's, demonstrates that His CALL is NOT a command.

Nobody said the external call was any different, Ben. But because you place the power of persuasion solely in the outward call (without having any real explanation for what differentiates between those who aqcuiesce and those who do not), you misunderstand the Reformed position to be that the elect receive a special outward calling when such is not the case at all.

Look at Luke 8:13, and see if you can detect any difference in how they began, compared with how those in verse 15 began? Isn't it the PERSEVERANCE of those in 15 that caused them to be called "good soil", and the FALLING (from persecution/affliction/temptation Mk4:17) causes those in 13 to be called "rocky"?

Ben, you've been called out on this numerous times. You seem bent on pushing a parable well beyond its intended limits. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, even 'Arminian' commentators do not believe this parable illustrates loss of salvation.

The question, is how can we read verses like 1Tim4:16, 2Pet1:10-11 (5-9), 2Pet3:14&17, 2Jn2:26-29, Heb2:1-3 & 3:12-4:1 --- these and many more like them (James 1:14-16 & 5:19-20, 2Pet2:20-22) --- and still think that we have no part in receiving (and abiding in) our salvation? (I hope you'll look these up.)

Nobody, least of all Calvinists, said we have no part in receiving and abiding in our salvation. Blatant misrepresentation. We believe that God is longsuffering towards us even when we struggle with sins, and that by His grace He will preserve us and restore us, not leaving us to perish. Our sanctification is synergistic.

 

[frumanchu]

Hi, Bulldog. The problem is that this passage doesn't convey "EXCLUSIVE granting". What's the theme of that part of Jn6? Really, the whole point Jesus is making, is "I am God". Read verse 42 --- the Jews were saying: "Isn't this Jesus, didn't we see this KID grow UP? WHO does He think He IS?!?!" This passage mirrors John 14:1, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." In saying that "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him", and "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me", Jesus was asserting that "if you truly believe in God, then (because I am of God and from God, IE 'Messiah') --- God will GIVE you to ME." Jn8:42 says this: "If God WAS your Father (if you REALLY FOLLOWED Him), then you would love ME, for I proceeded forth and have come from God."

You see, Bulldog, when Jesus said "nobody can come to Me except the Father draw him" and "no one can come to me except it be granted him from the Father" it's really just "hypothetical, can't really happen (that someone is not drawn or granted), merely fatherly bugbear."

Seems to me we covered this ground in John before...

Oh, how wonderfully John 10:25-30 fits with John 8:42-47, John 6:44-46 and 1 John 2:19. They do not hear Him because they are not of God (8:47). They don’t understand because they are not able to listen (8:43). They do not hear because they are not of His sheep (10:26). Nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws them (6:44). Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Him (6:45). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him (10:27). If they do not continue with them, they were never of them (1 Jn 2:19).
​

In that part of John 6, Jesus uses the phrase, "I will lift them up". Is there more than one group to be lifted up? No. One group:
1. God has given to Jesus vs39
2. Everyone who sees Jesus and believes (and may have eternal life) vs40
3. Those drawn by the Father, who then come to Jesus vs44
4. Those who partake of communion vs54

v35: He who comes to Me shall never hunger/thirst
v36: But you have seen Me and do not believe
v37: All that the Father give Me will come to Me, and those I will not cast out
v38: I have come to do My Father's will
v39: His will is that of all He has given me (who WILL come to Me) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day
v40: And His will is that everyone who sees Me and believes in Me will have everlasting life, and will be raised up at the last day
v44: Nobody can come to Me unless the Father draws him, and those who He does I will raise up on the last day
v45: This is nothing new, the Prophets knew it. Those who are taught by God (who have heard and learned from the Father) come to me

The meaning is abundantly clear. Nobody can come unless He is drawn (44), he who does come will NEVER hunger or thirst (35).

This passage stands as a bulwark against denial of man's total inability, God's sovereignty in election, the intent of the atonement, the efficiency of His grace, and the preservation of those He has redeemed . But "this is a hard saying; who can understand it?" (v60)

There are none that the Father GIVES to Jesus, BEFORE they believe. None who are NOT believers at the MOMENT they are "given to Jesus".

False. Those whom the Father gives to the Son WILL come to Him (v37). You could not be more clearly wrong, Ben.

The Father's will was to give a certain number of people (the elect) to the Son, and the Son agreed to become flesh and present Himself as a sacrificial atonement to redeem those the Father gave Him. ALL the Father gave the Son are redeemed by Him and will be raised up.

Vs44-45 does not say "ALL who are DRAWN, will be SAVED"; it says, "everyone isi taught; all who are taught, AND LEARN, comes to Me." The "and learned" reflects vs 40, "all who believe". There is no dynamic that isolates them according to God's decision, they are only isolated BY their BELIEF.

No, it does not say "everyone is taught" Ben. That is a blatant fabrication. I laid it out above. Keep it up and you'll be representing the US in Athens

Think about what you just said --- I agree with that statement, He DOES desire all to be saved; But if He does, then is there any way salvation would NOT be AVAILABLE to all? Either He does desire all to be saved (so all can), or He does NOT desire all to be saved (only desiring those whom He ELECTS). Gotta be one or the other.

I agree. It's the latter.

If election is unilateral, fitting the description of "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE", then those He desires TO be saved, WILL. Irresistibly. Making passage after passage of warnings that Jesus spoke, REBUKING them for NOT believing, making them all "sarcastic and insincere". "I'm rebuking you for NOT believing, but I secretly know you CAN'T believe because you're not ELECT and God has not REGENERATED you I'm just rubbing your NOSES in it and being OBTUSE 'casuse you CAN'T believe..." Do you really think Jesus had this attitude?

No, I believe Jesus rightly called them out for their own responsibility for their unbelief. Unbelief was not imposed upon them or coerced out of them. You are painting the unregenerate as victims when they are wholly responsible for their own state. The righteous, holy, sovereign God has every right to rebuke them.

"You search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you have eteral life; but they bear witness of ME; and you are UNWILLING to COME to Me thatyou may have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek glory from one another and do not seek the glory from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, THEN YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME, for Moses wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE ME?" Jn5:39-47

Do you see? Not one word of "ELECTION" here, but Jesus berating them for being FALSE PRETENDERS; they SAID they believed Moses, and Jesus said: "If you REALLY believed Moses, then you would believe ME. But you CANNOT believe Me BECAUSE you seek men's glory and not God's." 100% their decision, Bulldog; 0% predestination.

Dealt with before.

John 5:31-47 presents the fourfold witness to Christ’s messiah-ship. In addition to Himself is John the Baptist (v32-35), Christ’s own works (v36), and the Father (v37). Verse 38 then establishes that they do not have the Word in them, which is manifest in their rejecting Him. Verses 39-40 elaborate in parallel: You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life. Those Scriptures testify to Me. But clearly the Word (which testifies to Me) does not abide in you because you do not believe in Me and are not willing to come to Me. (echoed in 46-46)​

​

Likewise in v42 and 43: I know you, that the love of God is not in you. How? "Because I have come in my father’s name and you do not receive me."​

​

Their refusal to receive them is manifest proof that the love of God is not in them and the Word does not abide in them.. NOT the cause of it.​

 

[frumanchu]

Look at Jesus' reply: "Did I not choose all twelve of you, and one of you is a devil?"

Is there any way to understand this, OTHER than: "I chose all twelve, and one that I chose, DID leave!" ???

The context conveys that LEAVING was a REAL POSSIBILITY.

Leaving would not be possible if we were "ELECT" by His choice. "OSAS", and "IRRESISTIBLE"...

That is based on an erroneous premise, namely that Christ's choosing of the twelve was equivalent to their election unto salvation. Throughout the NT it is consistent that the FATHER elects, NOT the Son. Jesus' choice of the twelve had nothing to do with their election unto salvation.

 

[eldermike]

That is based on an erroneous premise, namely that Christ's choosing of the twelve was equivalent to their election unto salvation.

This is a very good point. Jesus thanked His Father for those that were given to Him in a prayer. John 17.