Does the Sabbath still exist?

[heymikey80]

By "Sabbath", do you mean a weekly day of rest as a moral command? Or do you simply mean "rest"?

Heb 47) points out the rest day has been redesignated. It's not one day in seven any more. It's "today".

Its practice is clearly not the same either (4:10 or so, if memory serves).

 

[Frogster]

So do you deem that he (Paul) would not be preaching about the law if the galatians were not Jews? So you think that because he is preaching about the law then they all must be Jews? Why would Paul not instruct them on the very thing they are to come out of? "the world" They in fact were made mostly of gentiles, pagan worshippers. The so-called Judaizers as you like to refer to them is not even mentioned in the text. There were some in the church who did not agree with Paul when it came his preaching about circumcision and uncircumcision nor agreed with him about ceremonies. But Paul, did not know who they were. Look at 5:10...Paul on his first journey to the providence of Galatia gave a sermon and you can read it in Act 13:16- This took place at Antioch. This letter is to all Galatians probably about 49AD...

But as stated earlier, there is no Sabbath mentioned in this letter. There is no Moses mentioned in this letter. There is no Judaizers mentioned in this letter. Paul here is speaking to the church (most importantly) made up mainly of gentiles with some scattered jews who also converted to christianity. Paul is addressing some problems that he heard where in the churches of the galatian providence.

But since Act 13 was mentioned here, I would that you take careful note of Acts 13:42..."And when the Jews had gone out of the synagogue, the GENTILES begged that these words might be preached to them on the next SABBATH." Interestingly, they waited a whole week until the next Sabbath. Here we see the Gentiles as well as Paul preaching on the Sabbath and begging he return the next Sabbath.

Lets keep it on the Sabbath.

Nice talking to ya. We can go to law at some other time.

Y

Well obviously some were trying to put them under law..

Why would pagans try to put them under Judaism? That would not make sense. They were judaizers,not paganizers.


Why did Paul say..whomever he is,if he were not an outsider?(judaizer) He was close to the Galatian church. Look how he right away heard the news,of the turning to a false gospel.

Gal 5:10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is.

Besides,what would be the difference if it was in the church,or an outsider,it was the teaching that was the important thing.

Look here..not very kind owrds,if it was a church member.

Gal 5;12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

Seems likely they were outsiders,and most scholars know,Paul was dogged by judaizers.

Now as far as meeting on the Sabbath..

If you were an evangelist,wouldn't you go to preach on a day when all were gathered? synagogue.,,,people gathered.

Read Acts 13,he said you cant be justified by Moses,in the synagogue. Just like he wanted for the Galatians.

Sure,ther were some God fearers at the synagogue,everyone knows that.

If you would like.F.F. Bruce is one of the mosted trusted scholars of our time,and there is something about the usage of the third person of the judaizers,comparred with those in the churches,second person,like also in 2 cor.I can get it for you if you want,I just have to fumble through my library.

Ok,now do you admit that Paul did not want them to turn to Sabbath,the same principles Paul (we) had been under. No use moving on,until the first point os settled.Remember how I said it make for a better debate.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Well obviously some were trying to put them under law..

Why would pagans try to put them under Judaism? That would not make sense. They were judaizers,not paganizers.

Lets put this part in perspective first. They in fact, where Christians, lets us not forget that. The church was started in 31AD and by the time Paul wrote the letter to the Galatian churches it was 49AD. There were some in the church (converted jews) who were offended at Paul's teachings on circumcision and washings which caused quit a stir. So much so that the gentiles themselves even started "turning away." The church even had a name, it was known as the "Church of God"...While Peter was over the circumcised as well as "the whole" and Paul office was over the gentiles (the uncircumcised). In Galatia, which would have been predominately gentiles there were some Jews scattered about through the Roman Empire.
But these which were in attendance were converted Jews and converted gentiles, they were Christian!


Why did Paul say..whomever he is,if he were not an outsider?(judaizer) He was close to the Galatian church. Look how he right away heard the news,of the turning to a false gospel.

They were turning to another Gospel of Christ. The hardcore Jews did not believe Christ was the messiah. So it would have to be some or part of the converts that were in the church. It wouldn't necessarily be the gentiles but those more familiar with washings and circumcision. So obviously it was the converted jews, although Paul was not sure who was causing the stir. It had also been quite some time since Paul's visit. About 2 years. Remember that the letter went out to all the churches in Galatia.

Gal 5:10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is.

In other words, he, Paul had taught them the truth from the beginning. Now they were turning from it back to the world. A dog returns to his own vomit. He had already on his first evangelical tour taught them about circumcision and the washings/cleansings which were abolished.

Besides,what would be the difference if it was in the church,or an outsider,it was the teaching that was the important thing.

Very important! We see here derision in the church. An important message to future christians that if one is not careful he/she could fall into the same snare.

Look here..not very kind owrds,if it was a church member.

Gal 5;12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

Not kind words at all. What would you do? Paul said, a little leaven leavens the whole. Leaven is symbolic of sin. Think about it this way. Would you put a rotten apple in with a bushel of good apples. Of course, not! In Corinth Paul even put some out of the church. Kicked them out!

Seems likely they were outsiders,and most scholars know,Paul was dogged by judaizers.

So no, it only could have been Christians.

Now as far as meeting on the Sabbath..

If you were an evangelist,wouldn't you go to preach on a day when all were gathered? synagogue.,,,people gathered.

Let me redirect your question. Why 18 years after Christ was crucified was the church meeting on the Sabbath? Why did the Galatian church which Paul had started, meet on the Sabbath?

Synagogue related to Christians as well as Jews. It simply means "house of assembly" Don't forget that Christendom came out of what most think is "Judaism." But the religion wasn't Judaism but it was the religion of the nation of Israel.

Read Acts 13,he said you cant be justified by Moses,in the synagogue. Just like he wanted for the Galatians.

This is were most jump track. You had "works of law" which were added into, "statutes of law", "judgement of law" and ten commandments. You have to know what Paul is talking about. Too deep to go into here.

Sure,ther were some God fearers at the synagogue,everyone knows that.

If you would like.F.F. Bruce is one of the mosted trusted scholars of our time,and there is something about the usage of the third person of the judaizers,comparred with those in the churches,second person,like also in 2 cor.I can get it for you if you want,I just have to fumble through my library.

Ok,now do you admit that Paul did not want them to turn to Sabbath,the same principles Paul (we) had been under. No use moving on,until the first point os settled.Remember how I said it make for a better debate.

How could Paul not want them to return to the Sabbath when they were coming to assembly on the Sabbath? They were already in it and had been in it since they converted!

I think that you should confer that the church, 18 years later was meeting on the Sabbath. You have to confer that the gentiles begged Paul to return to them on the Sabbath. Paul was a minister to the gentiles, he started the churches in Galatia, they kept the Sabbath from the beginning.

Continue reading Acts.

A later example of Sabbath keeping. 1 Cor 5:8 Here the church is keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread. Two High days are included here and these are annual Sabbaths. 1st Corinthians was written during this time in 55AD. Six years later than his letter to the Galatians.

Day of Pentecost, a high Sabbath being observed in 57AD Acts 21; 8 years later, almost a decade, the church is continuing to keep the Sabbath.


Nice talking to ya
Y

 

[Frogster]

How could Paul not want them to return to the Sabbath when they were coming to assembly on the Sabbath? They were already in it and had been in it since they converted!

I think that you should confer that the church, 18 years later was meeting on the Sabbath. You have to confer that the gentiles begged Paul to return to them on the Sabbath. Paul was a minister to the gentiles, he started the churches in Galatia, they kept the Sabbath from the beginning.

Continue reading Acts.

A later example of Sabbath keeping. 1 Cor 5:8 Here the church is keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread. Two High days are included here and these are annual Sabbaths. 1st Corinthians was written during this time in 55AD. Six years later than his letter to the Galatians.

Day of Pentecost, a high Sabbath being observed in 57AD Acts 21; 8 years later, almost a decade, the church is continuing to keep the Sabbath.


Nice talking to ya
Y

Then why this?

Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Besides,they were home churches who gathered together alot on different days.

 

[ricker]

How could Paul not want them to return to the Sabbath when they were coming to assembly on the Sabbath? They were already in it and had been in it since they converted!

I think that you should confer that the church, 18 years later was meeting on the Sabbath. You have to confer that the gentiles begged Paul to return to them on the Sabbath. Paul was a minister to the gentiles, he started the churches in Galatia, they kept the Sabbath from the beginning.

Continue reading Acts.

A later example of Sabbath keeping. 1 Cor 5:8 Here the church is keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread. Two High days are included here and these are annual Sabbaths. 1st Corinthians was written during this time in 55AD. Six years later than his letter to the Galatians.

Day of Pentecost, a high Sabbath being observed in 57AD Acts 21; 8 years later, almost a decade, the church is continuing to keep the Sabbath.


Nice talking to ya
Y

And we have all the instructions by Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, about how to keep the Sabbath rest in the New Covenant. Wait, we don't.

It is significant that every time the day is mentioned that Jesus met with His disciples after His reserrection, and the day of Pentecost, all happened on a Sabbath. Wait, they didn't.

And it surely is imortant to remember that Sabbath-breaking is listed the many times sins are listed in letters to Christians. Wait, it isn't.



We are allowed to meet any day of the week, including the seventh if that's what your culture favors. The 4th commandment doesn't say anything about going to church. It's a rest thing.

Are Gentiles ever instructed to observe the weekly Sabbath rest given to the Nation of Israel as an exclusive sign?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Then why this?

Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Besides,they were home churches who gathered together alot on different days.

Good evening Sir,

This sir, has gotten to be quite an entertaining conversation and I take it that both sides interest have been aroused greatly concerning this subject. I thank you, first, for your gentlemanly approach and tenacity. My sincere wish is, that each, when time is fitting, walk away recalling often this exchange of friendly fire. Thank you, sir!


My reply here might be quite lengthy as I have thought much about this recently and thus my answer. I only ask that you endure its reading to the end.

From the Apostle’s words, Gal. 4 – 8, 9, 10, 11, where he says, “When ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which, by nature, are no Gods. But now, after ye have known God, or rather, are know of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times and years. I am afraid of you, least I have bestowed on you labour in vain.” It is plain from these words that those Galatians had once broken off their Idolatrous practices, by means of Paul’s preaching among them, and that after a time in Paul’s absence they had returned to those practices again ; so that Paul was afraid that the word that he had preached among them would prove in vain at last. Hence it is plain that those day and times, that they observed, were pertaining to that Idolatrous worship, which he calls weak and beggarly elements. Although this is another of the scriptures that men make use of to prove that the Sabbath is done away, yet it is plain that the days and times, here spoken of, were pertaining to the doing service to them, who, by nature are no Gods, which those Galatians had turned to again. And I have much reason to think the days and times, here spoken of, were the same that were in Rom. 15-5. “One man esteemeth one day above another, &c.” And the same kind of things that were spoken of in Col. 2-20-22, which is another test brought against the Sabbath, and is just as much to the purpose as all the rest, wherein Paul speaks of ordinances and tells them, touch not, taste not, handle not.

In order to understand what Paul meant in this test, we must take notice that Paul here asks a question, and puts an exhortation in the middle of it, which exhortation is included in a parenthesis, which tends to interrupt the sense of what Paul said unless we pay a strict attention thereto. The question begins with the 20th verse and ends with the 22nd verse, as you may see by the note of interrogation. The parenthesis contains the 21st and part of the 22nd verse. If we first read the question through, and then put the exhortation after it, we shall see exactly what kind of ordinances Paul told them not to taste, nor handle; and the text would stand thus:- “Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men ? Touch not, taste not, handle not, &c.” Thus we see, it was the ordinances of men that Paul spoke against, and not the ordinances of God, as was the Sabbath. So we see in Col. 2d, Paul exhorts his brethren against following the commandments and doctrines of men which he calls the rudiments of the world. And in Gal. 4th, he speaks of days and times, which pertained to their Idolatrous traditions, which he calls weak and beggarly elements. And in the 8th chap. Of the 2d of Cor. He speaks of things offered in sacrifice to Idols, and appears to be upon the same subject, as likewise he was in Romans 14. So that by comparing all these scriptures together, it appears to me that the days and times spoken of in Galatians 4th, were the same that Paul meant in Romans 14th, which he said one man esteemeth above other days while others did not.

Thus it appears that those things that are done away we are plainly notified of in the New Testament; yet no such thing is said of the Sabbath, although some have imagined that Paul intimated such a thing in the chapter above mentioned; but whoever candidly looks at it one moment, may easily see that no such thing can be drawn from that chapter, unless they themselves first put it in, and then draw it out again. And again, some have imagined that Paul signified that the Sabbath was done away in Rom. 14-5, when he says, “One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

But seeing there is not one word said about the Sabbath, it certainly lies with those, who expect to get anything out of that test, about the Sabbath, to put it in themselves, and then they may easily get out again. For Paul totally neglected to say one word about the Sabbath in that chapter. But says one, I guess he meant the Sabbath; what day could he mean if it was not the Sabbath? Answer, you may think he meant the Sabbath, but if you do, it certainly can be no more than guess work, seeing it was not mentioned in the test; and I think that guess work is too slender a foundation to build our religious tenants upon. And I suppose I have just as good a right to guess he meant something else and not the Sabbath, as you have to guess he meant the Sabbath, seeing the word Sabbath was not mentioned. But one thing is certain, and that is, it lies with you to prove that he meant the Sabbath, before it can be of any use to you in proving the Sabbath to be done away or changed. But if I should attempt to give my opinion what days he did mean, I should compare scripture with scripture, and if we can gain any light on the subject, I think it was be in this way. And first, it appears evidently from many other passages of scripture that the Sabbath is not done away; hence I am led to think, that he meant something else in this test. And secondly, we find that there were many things in practice, in that day, even among the professors of Christianity, that were merely traditions, doctrines and commandments of men: such as eating things offered to Idols, and observing times and days, which, it seems, were, in the first place, set apart to the worshiping of those Idols, and then handed down to them by tradition, all which the Apostle labored to brake them off from.

Thank you, Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Then why this?

Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Besides,they were home churches who gathered together alot on different days.

Sir, if you would permit, I would, that you allow me one more comment on the subject aforementioned.
One must consider those converted Jews, called Christians, in the church and their previous practices or traditions which they, in previous times also “did service unto them that by nature are not gods.” To the Jew and also the gentile, yes, both failed to keep the law, both worshipped the commandments and traditions of men. May you call to mind, our Lord, when he thus said, “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of posts and cups; and many other such like things you do. And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own traditions.” Mk 7. 7-9 We find here that the “washings of hands” the Lord calls “the traditions of men.” To whom did our Lord speak? Pharisees, scribes – jews.

Jews had many practices that were nothing more than just that stated above, commandments and traditions of men, which they, in their mind, found favour to expel the commandments of God. The Jews also looked to the heavens for cycles in their calendars, times and seasons. And further, as there were also among the Jews, a variety of feasts, jubilees, &c. that were called Sabbaths and were merely a type of Gospel day and had no other use, but served as traditions of men. Even the Pharisees got involved in calendars that were astrological in nature serving elemental spirits.

Most Pauline scholars do agree, along similar lines, that the gentiles of Galatia were “turning again” to idol worship. This could be, but I cannot discount the possible cause of the “turning away”, the dissention amongst members, Jew against Greek, Christian against Christian. I cannot pay no heed to the Jew, who also held to the commandments and traditions of men. I cannot overlook the Pharisees observance of the heavens, much like an astrologer. Thus, I must conclude that my opinion, of Gal 4, is that Paul, used the previous affections of the group, which some, who we do not know, were turning again to observances of heavenly signs, to which he is addressing. Jew or Gentile, the position is sure, it is idol worship, it is condemned. ? Our portion is to learn from this, not to do service to such things.

 

[Frogster]

Good evening Sir,

This sir, has gotten to be quite an entertaining conversation and I take it that both sides interest have been aroused greatly concerning this subject. I thank you, first, for your gentlemanly approach and tenacity. My sincere wish is, that each, when time is fitting, walk away recalling often this exchange of friendly fire. Thank you, sir!

I am enjoying our chat too,thanks very much

My reply here might be quite lengthy as I have thought much about this recently and thus my answer. I only ask that you endure its reading to the end.

From the Apostle’s words, Gal. 4 – 8, 9, 10, 11, where he says, “When ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which, by nature, are no Gods. But now, after ye have known God, or rather, are know of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times and years. I am afraid of you, least I have bestowed on you labour in vain.” It is plain from these words that those Galatians had once broken off their Idolatrous practices, by means of Paul’s preaching among them, and that after a time in Paul’s absence they had returned to those practices again ; so that Paul was afraid that the word that he had preached among them would prove in vain at last. Hence it is plain that those day and times, that they observed, were pertaining to that Idolatrous worship, which he calls weak and beggarly elements. Although this is another of the scriptures that men make use of to prove that the Sabbath is done away, yet it is plain that the days and times, here spoken of, were pertaining to the doing service to them, who, by nature are no Gods, which those Galatians had turned to again. And I have much reason to think the days and times, here spoken of, were the same that were in Rom. 15-5. “One man esteemeth one day above another, &c.” And the same kind of things that were spoken of in Col. 2-20-22, which is another test brought against the Sabbath, and is just as much to the purpose as all the rest, wherein Paul speaks of ordinances and tells them, touch not, taste not, handle not.

Sorry,but we have been all through that.They were turning back to the same elemenatry principles. Paul clearly said WE.He was in the we,of elemtary principles,in chapt 4.Then he went on to say that it was the Jewish calendar. What else could it possibly be? Why would those who push Moses,dare want them to revert to paganism. That is why Moses was talked about. Look here..it was the law that they were turning to,not paganism.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

Then here also,a clear reference to Moses,circumcision,and law..

Paul said no. How clear that is..it was not paganism,it was moses.

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

Gal 5;3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

In order to understand what Paul meant in this test, we must take notice that Paul here asks a question, and puts an exhortation in the middle of it, which exhortation is included in a parenthesis, which tends to interrupt the sense of what Paul said unless we pay a strict attention thereto. The question begins with the 20th verse and ends with the 22nd verse, as you may see by the note of interrogation. The parenthesis contains the 21st and part of the 22nd verse. If we first read the question through, and then put the exhortation after it, we shall see exactly what kind of ordinances Paul told them not to taste, nor handle; and the text would stand thus:- “Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men ? Touch not, taste not, handle not, &c.” Thus we see, it was the ordinances of men that Paul spoke against, and not the ordinances of God, as was the Sabbath. So we see in Col. 2d, Paul exhorts his brethren against following the commandments and doctrines of men which he calls the rudiments of the world. And in Gal. 4th, he speaks of days and times, which pertained to their Idolatrous traditions, which he calls weak and beggarly elements. And in the 8th chap. Of the 2d of Cor. He speaks of things offered in sacrifice to Idols, and appears to be upon the same subject, as likewise he was in Romans 14. So that by comparing all these scriptures together, it appears to me that the days and times spoken of in Galatians 4th, were the same that Paul meant in Romans 14th, which he said one man esteemeth above other days while others did not.

Yes,there were also teachings of men,and no doubt they were also based of the law.Granted both,moses and oral.

But like I said,it had to be the law spoken of,because all of our sins were forgiven,by the nailing. How could all of our sins be forgiven,by teachings of men? Dont forget,we als have eph 2:15.

All our sins,trespasses,a known or written law.That has to be from the law.

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Bottom line.It was the Torah as the heart of the context.

Thus it appears that those things that are done away we are plainly notified of in the New Testament; yet no such thing is said of the Sabbath, although some have imagined that Paul intimated such a thing in the chapter above mentioned; but whoever candidly looks at it one moment, may easily see that no such thing can be drawn from that chapter, unless they themselves first put it in, and then draw it out again. And again, some have imagined that Paul signified that the Sabbath was done away in Rom. 14-5, when he says, “One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

Rom 14 was about conscience,not objective rules.Lets not forget this ..

Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Why that verse?

But seeing there is not one word said about the Sabbath, it certainly lies with those, who expect to get anything out of that test, about the Sabbath, to put it in themselves, and then they may easily get out again. For Paul totally neglected to say one word about the Sabbath in that chapter. But says one, I guess he meant the Sabbath; what day could he mean if it was not the Sabbath? Answer, you may think he meant the Sabbath, but if you do, it certainly can be no more than guess work, seeing it was not mentioned in the test; and I think that guess work is too slender a foundation to build our religious tenants upon. And I suppose I have just as good a right to guess he meant something else and not the Sabbath, as you have to guess he meant the Sabbath, seeing the word Sabbath was not mentioned. But one thing is certain, and that is, it lies with you to prove that he meant the Sabbath, before it can be of any use to you in proving the Sabbath to be done away or changed. But if I should attempt to give my opinion what days he did mean, I should compare scripture with scripture, and if we can gain any light on the subject, I think it was be in this way. And first, it appears evidently from many other passages of scripture that the Sabbath is not done away; hence I am led to think, that he meant something else in this test. And secondly, we find that there were many things in practice, in that day, even among the professors of Christianity, that were merely traditions, doctrines and commandments of men: such as eating things offered to Idols, and observing times and days, which, it seems, were, in the first place, set apart to the worshiping of those Idols, and then handed down to them by tradition, all which the Apostle labored to brake them off from.

Thank you, Y

How can you separate the Sabbath,from the Jewish calendar? It was the Sabbath.

Dont forget the shadow word in Col 2. How can traditions of men,be a shadow of Christ?

Here again, we see the law was a shadow..the law..,not the teachings of men..

10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Thanks,frog.

 

[Frogster]

Sir, if you would permit, I would, that you allow me one more comment on the subject aforementioned.
One must consider those converted Jews, called Christians, in the church and their previous practices or traditions which they, in previous times also “did service unto them that by nature are not gods.” To the Jew and also the gentile, yes, both failed to keep the law, both worshipped the commandments and traditions of men. May you call to mind, our Lord, when he thus said, “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of posts and cups; and many other such like things you do. And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own traditions.” Mk 7. 7-9 We find here that the “washings of hands” the Lord calls “the traditions of men.” To whom did our Lord speak? Pharisees, scribes – jews.

Jews had many practices that were nothing more than just that stated above, commandments and traditions of men, which they, in their mind, found favour to expel the commandments of God. The Jews also looked to the heavens for cycles in their calendars, times and seasons. And further, as there were also among the Jews, a variety of feasts, jubilees, &c. that were called Sabbaths and were merely a type of Gospel day and had no other use, but served as traditions of men. Even the Pharisees got involved in calendars that were astrological in nature serving elemental spirits.

Most Pauline scholars do agree, along similar lines, that the gentiles of Galatia were “turning again” to idol worship. This could be, but I cannot discount the possible cause of the “turning away”, the dissention amongst members, Jew against Greek, Christian against Christian. I cannot pay no heed to the Jew, who also held to the commandments and traditions of men. I cannot overlook the Pharisees observance of the heavens, much like an astrologer. Thus, I must conclude that my opinion, of Gal 4, is that Paul, used the previous affections of the group, which some, who we do not know, were turning again to observances of heavenly signs, to which he is addressing. Jew or Gentile, the position is sure, it is idol worship, it is condemned. ? Our portion is to learn from this, not to do service to such things.

I don't know what scholars you reading.None of my scholars say that.FF Bruce,W.E Vine.J.B lighfoot. Even NT Wright says that Col 2:14 was the Torah.

Why the mention of the law,in several places,if it was idol worship?

Why didn't Paul go on and teach about paganism?

Was pagainism introduced 430 years later?

Gal 3;17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise
void.
Was the book of the law,a pagan book?

Gal 3;10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them

Why the comparison Of Moses to Abraham,not Abraham to paganism,if that was the context of the letter?

My friend,it is common knowledge that the judaizers dogged Paul.

look here too..

Phil 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.
We know they were Jewish,because Paul out "jewished them" in the following verses of Phil 3.And they pushed circumcision.

Same in Corinth.They were judaizers.

2 Cor 11;22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.

Thanks,frog.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Quick note before I head off to work. Who then started "turning away"? Most likely the gentile christians. Why? Because the trouble-makers were pushing that they had to be circumcised to become Jew! Hmmm? Consider, what effect that would have on you or I if, now, we were confronted with the same issue. Probably walk away. It was a cruel practice. I can cannot post it here but will look later for my article and maybe it can be found online. The Jews even, performed what was called "reverse circumcision."

mmmm, makes my skin crawl....LOLOLO

Then Paul says, I wish that they would go emasculate themselves! NOT SO CRUEL NOW IS IT

 

[JohnRabbit]

And we have all the instructions by Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, about how to keep the Sabbath rest in the New Covenant. Wait, we don't.

It is significant that every time the day is mentioned that Jesus met with His disciples after His reserrection, and the day of Pentecost, all happened on a Sabbath. Wait, they didn't.

And it surely is imortant to remember that Sabbath-breaking is listed the many times sins are listed in letters to Christians. Wait, it isn't.



We are allowed to meet any day of the week, including the seventh if that's what your culture favors. The 4th commandment doesn't say anything about going to church. It's a rest thing.

Are Gentiles ever instructed to observe the weekly Sabbath rest given to the Nation of Israel as an exclusive sign?

con·vo·ca·tion (from dictionary.com)
–noun
1. the act of convoking.
2. the state of being convoked.
3. a group of people gathered in answer to a summons; assembly.
4. Anglican Church . either of the two provincial synods or assemblies of the clergy.
5. Protestant Episcopal Church .
a. an assembly of the clergy of part of a diocese.
b. the area represented at such an assembly.
6. a formal assembly at a college or university, esp. for a graduation ceremony.

Leviticus 23:1-44 ( NKJV ) 1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’S Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”
9And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12And you shall offer on that day, when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the Lord, for a sweet aroma; and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the Lord. 18And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the Lord, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 19Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the Lord your God.’”
23Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.’”
26And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27“Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”
33Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 34“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. 35On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. 36For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
37‘These are the feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38besides the Sabbaths of the Lord, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the Lord.
39‘Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the Lord for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 40And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths, 43that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’”
44So Moses declared to the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

i guess you've never read lev 23, where you see the command to assemble on God's Sabbath, so i posted the whole chapter for you.

it is interesting that the apostles were meeting on the day of pentecost, as prescribed in the commandment to keep God's feasts, when they received the Holy Spirit.

if you'll notice, the day of pentecost or "feast of firstfruits" is always on a sunday, the first day of the week, and is one of the annual sabbaths that fall throughout the year.

Mark 2:27 ( NKJV ) 27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

the sabbath was made for man, that includes gentiles too.

God revealed His ways through the COI. the COI was to set the example to the rest of the world as to how God expected one to live one's life. they were called out to be seperate from the rest of the world and it's ways.

so, after reading this post, maybe the sabbath will be more than a "rest thing" for you.

 

[JohnRabbit]

It was the whole law,Paul said he died to it in rom 7,then went on to talk about moral law,as per coveting.

Why didn't paul want the law for the galatian churches?

in chapter 7 of romans, paul is talking about the ten commandments, he starts the chapter with a discussion about adultery. he likens a woman's commitment to her husband as being bound to him by the law.

in verses 7 -12 he talks about how he would not have known sin but for the law, other than that he says he was oblivious to sin, did'nt know he was sinning.

Romans 7:12-13 ( NKJV ) 12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

he saw that sin was his problem and the law helped him to see that.

he also says:

Romans 7:22 ( NKJV ) 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

the law was a delight for him.

finally last verse of the chapter he says this:

Romans 7:25 ( NKJV ) 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

paul says he serves the law of God, and he never mentions the mosaic law in this chapter, he's only talking about the ten commandments.

1 John 3:4 ( NKJV ) 4Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. this is the bible's definition of sin which makes what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 ( NKJV ) 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

also Jesus said:
Mark 7:20-23 ( NKJV ) 20And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

very plain to me. he will tell those who practice "lawlessness" that He don't know them.

and you talk about the "whole law" as if there is no distinction between the Mosaic law and the Ten commandments.

we know that the Mosaic law is a law of physical works, in that, it takes a physical effort to perform.

the Ten Commandments are a spiritual law, requires no physical effort to perform, just a right attitude of mind, to love God first, and then your fellow man.

Romans 7:14 ( NKJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

you know he's not talking about the Mosaic law here. you do see the difference?

if not, consider this, something else Jesus said:

John 7:22-23 ( NKJV ) 22Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

be careful when you read this. the only thing i see that would break the law of moses would be the "not being circumcised" part of the verse.

Jesus said that they would circumcise on the sabbath to keep one from breaking the Mosaic law, but they were accusing Him of healing on the sabbath breaking the ten commandments!

notice, in their mind, their act of "circumcising", did not break the sabbath commandment, but, they performed the act (of circumcision) in order not to break the mosaic law!

now, think about it, they did not fear breaking the sabbath law, but they feared breaking the Mosaic law. remember, they were doing something on the sabbath, the same thing they were accusing Jesus of doing!

 

[Frogster]

Quick note before I head off to work. Who then started "turning away"? Most likely the gentile christians. Why? Because the trouble-makers were pushing that they had to be circumcised to become Jew! Hmmm? Consider, what effect that would have on you or I if, now, we were confronted with the same issue. Probably walk away. It was a cruel practice. I can cannot post it here but will look later for my article and maybe it can be found online. The Jews even, performed what was called "reverse circumcision."

mmmm, makes my skin crawl....LOLOLO

Then Paul says, I wish that they would go emasculate themselves! NOT SO CRUEL NOW IS IT

Sorry Y,but facts are facts.The context clearly indicates it was Moses,Judaism,and Circumcision that was the issue.

And yes,they were turning away from faith to Judaism.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Frogster]

in chapter 7 of romans, paul is talking about the ten commandments, he starts the chapter with a discussion about adultery. he likens a woman's commitment to her husband as being bound to him by the law.

in verses 7 -12 he talks about how he would not have known sin but for the law, other than that he says he was oblivious to sin, did'nt know he was sinning.

Romans 7:12-13 ( NKJV ) 12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

he saw that sin was his problem and the law helped him to see that.

he also says:

Romans 7:22 ( NKJV ) 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

the law was a delight for him.

finally last verse of the chapter he says this:

Romans 7:25 ( NKJV ) 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

paul says he serves the law of God, and he never mentions the mosaic law in this chapter, he's only talking about the ten commandments.

1 John 3:4 ( NKJV ) 4Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. this is the bible's definition of sin which makes what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 ( NKJV ) 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

also Jesus said:
Mark 7:20-23 ( NKJV ) 20And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

very plain to me. he will tell those who practice "lawlessness" that He don't know them.

and you talk about the "whole law" as if there is no distinction between the Mosaic law and the Ten commandments.

we know that the Mosaic law is a law of physical works, in that, it takes a physical effort to perform.

the Ten Commandments are a spiritual law, requires no physical effort to perform, just a right attitude of mind, to love God first, and then your fellow man.

Romans 7:14 ( NKJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

you know he's not talking about the Mosaic law here. you do see the difference?

if not, consider this, something else Jesus said:

John 7:22-23 ( NKJV ) 22Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

be careful when you read this. the only thing i see that would break the law of moses would be the "not being circumcised" part of the verse.

Jesus said that they would circumcise on the sabbath to keep one from breaking the Mosaic law, but they were accusing Him of healing on the sabbath breaking the ten commandments!

notice, in their mind, their act of "circumcising", did not break the sabbath commandment, but, they performed the act (of circumcision) in order not to break the mosaic law!

now, think about it, they did not fear breaking the sabbath law, but they feared breaking the Mosaic law. remember, they were doing something on the sabbath, the same thing they were accusing Jesus of doing!

Your totally wrong. The law was one,there are no divisions.

Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.


Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."


James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Now,as far as 7 goes.It was the law that aroused passions..No?

Rom 7;5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

Same here.What did sin use?


Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.


Oh my! Look at what the power of sin is!

1 Cor 15;56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

That is why paul said we are not under law,where sin dominates.

Rom 6;14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Here too.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

That is why paul said he died to the law,and released from the law in 7.

So,you may want to get the whole gist of the text.

 

[Frogster]

con·vo·ca·tion (from dictionary.com)
–noun
1. the act of convoking.
2. the state of being convoked.
3. a group of people gathered in answer to a summons; assembly.
4. Anglican Church . either of the two provincial synods or assemblies of the clergy.
5. Protestant Episcopal Church .
a. an assembly of the clergy of part of a diocese.
b. the area represented at such an assembly.
6. a formal assembly at a college or university, esp. for a graduation ceremony.

Leviticus 23:1-44 ( NKJV ) 1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’S Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”
9And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12And you shall offer on that day, when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the Lord, for a sweet aroma; and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the Lord. 18And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the Lord, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 19Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the Lord your God.’”
23Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.’”
26And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27“Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”
33Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 34“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. 35On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. 36For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
37‘These are the feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38besides the Sabbaths of the Lord, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the Lord.
39‘Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the Lord for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 40And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths, 43that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’”
44So Moses declared to the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

i guess you've never read lev 23, where you see the command to assemble on God's Sabbath, so i posted the whole chapter for you.

it is interesting that the apostles were meeting on the day of pentecost, as prescribed in the commandment to keep God's feasts, when they received the Holy Spirit.

if you'll notice, the day of pentecost or "feast of firstfruits" is always on a sunday, the first day of the week, and is one of the annual sabbaths that fall throughout the year.

Mark 2:27 ( NKJV ) 27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

the sabbath was made for man, that includes gentiles too.

God revealed His ways through the COI. the COI was to set the example to the rest of the world as to how God expected one to live one's life. they were called out to be seperate from the rest of the world and it's ways.

so, after reading this post, maybe the sabbath will be more than a "rest thing" for you.

Does the holy convocation say ,a man shall be stoned for working on it?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus said that they would circumcise on the sabbath to keep one from breaking the Mosaic law, but they were accusing Him of healing on the sabbath breaking the ten commandments!

notice, in their mind, their act of "circumcising", did not break the sabbath commandment, but, they performed the act (of circumcision) in order not to break the mosaic law!

now, think about it, they did not fear breaking the sabbath law, but they feared breaking the Mosaic law. remember, they were doing something on the sabbath, the same thing they were accusing Jesus of doing!

It has been long established in Judaism that when two commandments conflict, the positive commandment overrides the negative.

I think Jesus seems to be taking that approach in regards to the positive commandment to circumcise and the negative commandment not to work on the sabbath.

The same would apply to priests offering sacrifices on the Sabbath. The positive command to sacrifice overrides the negative command not to work on the Sabbath.

 

[bugkiller]

It has been long established in Judaism that when two commandments conflict, the positive commandment overrides the negative.

I think Jesus seems to be taking that approach in regards to the positive commandment to circumcise and the negative commandment not to work on the sabbath.

The same would apply to priests offering sacrifices on the Sabbath. The positive command to sacrifice overrides the negative command not to work on the Sabbath.

We are not discussing Judaism here are we? I thought we were discussing Chrisitianity.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Does the Sabbath still exist? That is the question. We will discuss here both sides of the topic for or against.

Would it be wrong to asume that you are talking about the sabbath mentioned in the ten commandments of Ex 20? If it is then who does this apply to? If you say it applies to the Israelites (Jews) I might agree that it exists. If you are saying to the non believing world in Jesus I would also say yes. If you are saying it is in existance for the born again Chirstian believer I would have to say no, not as a specific week day.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

that would be one of my arguments also...

if the weekly sabbath is a foretaste of the coming age, and the coming age has not yet arrived, it stands to reason the foretaste still exists.

also

if the Sabbath day is a commemoration of the creation week showing Israel how their God is the One True God, then unless God or creation have ended, the Sabbath still exists.

As to whether people choose to celebrate it (or even remember it in practical terms), that is another matter entirely.

From my position I would disagree. We are in a different covenant as testified by Jesus in Mat 26:28. Yes I understand the Jew does not accept this new covenant as being current. I am not really involed in phorphecy all that much.

God said in Hosea 2:11 that the sabbath would end. And the word is shabbat used everytime the sabbath mentioned in the OC/OT.

bugkiller

Steve[/quote]

 

[bugkiller]

Finally getting a chance to look at the post. Have been extremely busy at work, needless to say, by the time I do get home I have been resting and not taking the time to view this post.

I notice that Frogster has a question that seems to have gone unanswered in previous post concerning Gal 4. I assume he is referencing verses 8,9,10,11.

So Frogster, here is your answer, finally. You also mentioned Col 2:16-17 which ought to have put light on what Paul was pertaining to in Gal 4. I won't post the entire set of verses here. If you have time you can read it at your leisure. If you continue reading in Col 2 from v 17, Paul labels these things as "the commandments and doctrines of men." v21

Yes and I think that Paul is calling the teaching of the law now a commandment of men since we are no longer under the law of Moses (Torah). So to say that we are to observe the sabbath is not from God in the NC/NT. It therefore is a teaching of man.

Lets not forget that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He was writing back to the Galatians as he had already taught them the truth and they were turning back to idol worship which they had before they had known God. Keep this in mind while reading Galatians the story begins to unfold quite clearly.

It is clear from what you wrote that you deem that Paul was speaking of the Sabbath, the one and the same that Christ kept from the beginning. If I should attempt to give my opinion what days he did mean, I should compare scripture with scripture, and if we can gain any light on the subject, I think it would be in this way. And first, it appears evident from many other passages of scripture that the Sabbath is not done away, hence I am led to think, that he meant something else in this test. And secondly, we find that there were many things in practice, in that day, even among the professors of Christianity, that were merely traditions, doctrines and commandments of men, such as eating things offered to idols, and observing times and days, which it seems, were, in the the first place, set apart to the worshiping of those idols, and then handed down to them by tradition, all which the Apostle labored to brake them off from. This is made plain from the Apostle's words, Gal 4, where he says,

"When you knew not God, you did service unto them which, by nature are no Gods. But now, after you have known God, or rather, are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days, and months, and times and years. I am afraid of you, least I have bestowed on you labor in vain."

It is made plain from these words that those Galatians had once broken off their idolatrous practices, by means of Paul's preaching among them, and that after a time in Paul's absence they had returned to those practices again; so that Paul was afraid that the word that he had preached among them would prove in vain at last. Hence it is plain that those days and times, that they observed, were pertaining to that idolatrous worship, which he calls weak and beggarly elements. Although this is another of the scriptures that men make use of to prove that the Sabbath is done away, yet it is plain that the days and times, here spoken of, were pertaining to the doing service to them, who, by nature are no Gods, which those Galatians had turned to again. And I have much reason to think the days and times, here spoken of, were the same that were in Rom 15-5 "One man esteem one day above another, etc" And the same kind of things that were spoken of in Col 2, which is another test brought against the Sabbath, and is just as much to the purpose as all the rest, wherein Paul speaks of ordinances and tells them, touch not, taste not, handle not.

Hold them horses up just a bit. The first thing I need you to explain is how you can go from the teachings and practices of the Jews in your 5th paragraph to them being pagan after citing a scripture which references what the Jews taught and practiced. Are you saying that the Jews were observing idolatrous practices? Everywhere Paul went to preach was to the Jew in the synagogue first. The synagogue usually had proselytes who were not considered pagans but believers in God - the same God as the Jews. Being proselytes they would follow the same customs as the Jews. The OT does not address the pagan customs of feasts - yearly, monthly and weekly. The exact same order is found in Eze and Hosea as Col 2. So Paul was not writing to an exclusively gentile oriented church. As Frogster mentioned the Judaiziers plagued Paul everywhere he went. Acts states that some Jews followed him causing trouble. And false brethern came to spy out our liberty Gal 2:4 - And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Why wasn't it the pagans who did this?

And as the word, Sabbath, in this text, stands in the plural, signifying more kinds of Sabbaths than one, it really appears to me most likely that he had allusion to those feasts, which were in the plural and not to the weekly Sabbath, which is uniformly in the Scriptures spoken of in the singular number, the Sabbath, not the Sabbaths. Getting ahead of myself here....LOL

The word sabbayon is used in Col 2 and is commonly translated both singular. As many other tranlsations will tesify by using the word sabbath singular. Examples are: NIV, NASB, ESV, ASV, HCSB, Amplified, etc. So I don't think your argument has any merit.

I hope Frogster that you will find here, that at lest someone has answered your question. I will continue with Col and Rom if you wish?

Thought of something I wish to add that is the reason for my edit. Story flow is very important here. Paul writes that, "some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." Gal 1:17, he rebukes those who follow the folly of these men by calling them "bewitched" Gal 3:1, and the gospel of Christ had feed them from pagan gods as well as traditions of men that could not save them (even some jewish traditiions) Gal 4:8-11. But now they have fallen prey to treacherous men with a false message. "Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good" Gal 4:17 Also consider Galatia is a Roman providence in upper asia minor. These people are idol worshippers, pagans. Just a note.

Now you wouldn't dare be speaking of yourself, would you?

bugkiller