Does the Sabbath still exist?

[bugkiller]

It was stated, that Gentiles of the old testament, were never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Others say, the Sabbath was given to the Jews only, and that the Gentiles have nothing to do with it. But it is to be remembered, that the Sabbath was given long before there was a Jew on earth, and there were even under the old dispensation, exceeding great and precious promises made to the strict observers of the Sabbath; and that too, to the Gentiles in particular. And the seventh day is no where in scripture called the Jews Sabbath; but our Savior says the Sabbath man, signifying all men, and it appears, that whole nations of the Gentiles were destroyed, because they went contrary to the laws given to the Jews, among which was the Sabbath, as you may see, Lev 18:27, 19:3 and 20:23. These three passages you may read at your leisure, and by which, it is plain that it was the duty of the Gentiles to keep the laws, and statutes, that were given to the Jews, and I see no reason why we should single out the Sabbath from the rest, and say, it is not binding on the Gentiles, when it is absolutely necessary for all people, under heaven, as I hope is shown; and almost all Christians acknowledge the necessity of a Sabbath, although they refuse to keep the one that God commanded.

Could you explain to me where the sabbath is mentioned in Lev 18? I admit that the Israelite would be spued out for not keeping the covenant.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Do you Frogster or ricker attend church on Sunday?

Why would you ask? What does that have to do with your OP? Both obviously oppose you and probably don't keep the sabbath.

All I see by such a question is a basis to accuse from your stand point. If they do can you show it is sin to worship God on Sunday?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Frogster,

i guess that you don't know that the ministration of death was nailed to the cross along with ritualistic laws of moses.

it's sad, i think, that you don't know that.

That is an intersting comment. You say the law was nailed to the cross and imply that only its sentence for failure was. If it has no teeth to enforce, what value does it have as law?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Frogster,

First you must consider the scriptures thoroughly. In your reference as to Judaizers trying to pull sway over the church, you in fact could not be further from truth. I hope that, in Paul writing of the events concerning Peter, you would in no way assert that this is fact of Jews gaining influence in the church of Galatia. Again, I would that you stick with the facts.

Interesting position you have there Sam. The Jews aren't a problem so Peter reverts back to Jewish custom only when Jews appear on the scene. Amazing! What more proof do you need? You even provided the argument against yourself. Amazing!

But most damaging to this type of logic is simply the Galatians were "turning again" to days that they had previously observed. Yet you say Jadaizers were trying to impose on them the Sabbath and Holy days. I ask you, how could you "turn again" to days which you never observed from the beginning. Could you "turn again" to the true Sabbath?

Quite simple really. The first converts were from the synagogue and it is entirely possible that these converts included both Jews and Gentiles. Else why the comparrison in 3:28?

Would you dare try to persuade me that the Galatians were Jews? Paul makes it clear in Gal 5:6 and 6:12 that they were physically uncircumcised. How then can they be Jews? No, they were gentiles from asia minor, a providence of Rome, which I already stated earlier, they from the beginning did not observe Jewish traditions.

No, it was as mixed group of both. You did not use the qualifier of 'all' when you mentioned Jews above, but I am sure that is what you meant. Thus you defeat yourself again.

Do you not know what pagan worship is? Do you not know of pagan gods? Rome - there were Mithras and Mithraism Greece - Zues, Apollo with Delphi and Delos, Aphrodite with Corinth... Images and shrines paved the streets of Corinth...An altar of dedication to anonymous gods, found at Pergamum, Asia Minor... Have you not read of Paul's visit to Athens and the altar of the unknown god? Act 17:22 Do you need more?

Whopps? I thought we were talking Galatia, not Corinth.

"We" as you refer to it, meaning "Paul in Judaism", might I ask, to whom do you think Paul was speaking? Would context prove "we" as those in the church? I would, you rethink your position.

Can you show me by the rules of English where we does not include the speaker?

Finally, v 8 seems to extinguish such foolishness. "When you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods." Paul referring clearly to idol worship. ("clearly to the idols of paganism, which, in typical Jewish idiom, Paul termed 'not gods'" The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 1976, Vol 10 p 475)

The question on Gal 4 was answered in full earlier, but maybe one might be in need of more clarification.

Now Frogster, you said earlier,
"Proper debate protocol,says we now stick to these fundamental,issues,and not go into any new tangents,that diffuse,and divert.Please answer these directly."

So why did you change from Galatia to Corinth? Seems to be a diversion to me.

You stick to the fundamental issue. Stay the course. The verses here are clearly speaking of idol worship, which is also understood, that some like to use this chapter and verse as an argument against the Sabbath. I have received your opinion on the matter, and it will simply not do. No where in this letter are the holy days or Sabbaths mentioned.

An amazing denial if you ask me. But then you aren't asking which does not change the facts. Talk about legalism. It is this very issue of the law being written on the heart that is addressed as being a part of the NC. You say the sabbath isn't mentioned (talked about) only because the word sabbath does not appear in the selected text.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Interesting position you have there Sam. The Jews aren't a problem so Peter reverts back to Jewish custom only when Jews appear on the scene. Amazing! What more proof do you need? You even provided the argument against yourself. Amazing!Quite simple really. The first converts were from the synagogue and it is entirely possible that these converts included both Jews and Gentiles. Else why the comparrison in 3:28? No, it was as mixed group of both. You did not use the qualifier of 'all' when you mentioned Jews above, but I am sure that is what you meant. Thus you defeat yourself again. Whopps? I thought we were talking Galatia, not Corinth. Can you show me by the rules of English where we does not include the speaker? So why did you change from Galatia to Corinth? Seems to be a diversion to me. An amazing denial if you ask me. But then you aren't asking which does not change the facts. Talk about legalism. It is this very issue of the law being written on the heart that is addressed as being a part of the NC. You say the sabbath isn't mentioned (talked about) only because the word sabbath does not appear in the selected text.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So do you deem that he (Paul) would not be preaching about the law if the galatians were not Jews? So you think that because he is preaching about the law then they all must be Jews? Why would Paul not instruct them on the very thing they are to come out of? "the world" They in fact were made mostly of gentiles, pagan worshippers. The so-called Judaizers as you like to refer to them is not even mentioned in the text. There were some in the church who did not agree with Paul when it came his preaching about circumcision and uncircumcision nor agreed with him about ceremonies. But Paul, did not know who they were. Look at 5:10...Paul on his first journey to the providence of Galatia gave a sermon and you can read it in Act 13:16- This took place at Antioch. This letter is to all Galatians probably about 49AD...

I could find no where that Frogster indicated the Galatians were all one or the the other. It seems to be you putting words in his mouth. Frogster referred to the Galatians without ethnic ties. He did say Judaisizers but these were the ones who came in, not the ones that were there already. Now you say mostly of gentiles. Would this be a change of position for you? I can only assume what you might mean. If I would say something, would you not just deny it and provide another group of people? Who were those who came in to spy out the liberty of the christian? I thought they were false brethern from chapter 2. Surely the Galatians would recognize non Jews right off.

But as stated earlier, there is no Sabbath mentioned in this letter. There is no Moses mentioned in this letter. There is no Judaizers mentioned in this letter. Paul here is speaking to the church (most importantly) made up mainly of gentiles with some scattered jews who also converted to christianity. Paul is addressing some problems that he heard where in the churches of the galatian providence.

I can't mention my little joke/pun about that river in Egypt without running the risk of trouble.

But since Act 13 was mentioned here, I would that you take careful note of Acts 13:42..."And when the Jews had gone out of the synagogue, the GENTILES begged that these words might be preached to them on the next SABBATH." Interestingly, they waited a whole week until the next Sabbath. Here we see the Gentiles as well as Paul preaching on the Sabbath and begging he return the next Sabbath.

So tell us did the Gentiles come running to the sysnagogue when Paul finished or were they already there. More evidence that the crowd was mixed ant the letter to the Galatian church was to both ethnic groups.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How could Paul not want them to return to the Sabbath when they were coming to assembly on the Sabbath? They were already in it and had been in it since they converted!

I think that you should confer that the church, 18 years later was meeting on the Sabbath. You have to confer that the gentiles begged Paul to return to them on the Sabbath. Paul was a minister to the gentiles, he started the churches in Galatia, they kept the Sabbath from the beginning.

Continue reading Acts.

A later example of Sabbath keeping. 1 Cor 5:8 Here the church is keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread. Two High days are included here and these are annual Sabbaths. 1st Corinthians was written during this time in 55AD. Six years later than his letter to the Galatians.

Day of Pentecost, a high Sabbath being observed in 57AD Acts 21; 8 years later, almost a decade, the church is continuing to keep the Sabbath.


Nice talking to ya
Y

An interrseting though just occurred to me. Do you know of any scripture that indicates that Paul went back to any of the places he started churches on the sabbath? I don't think you can. I Cor 16 would be a good example. The reason is that the Corinthian church was under instruction to receive an offering on the first day of the week. Why would someone go tothe church on a single day just to deposit an offering especially since they were there the previous day as you insist?

Say bold letters won't get you any more noticed. They just make it harder to read especially with the size of type you posted in.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Quick note before I head off to work. Who then started "turning away"? Most likely the gentile christians. Why? Because the trouble-makers were pushing that they had to be circumcised to become Jew! Hmmm? Consider, what effect that would have on you or I if, now, we were confronted with the same issue. Probably walk away. It was a cruel practice. I can cannot post it here but will look later for my article and maybe it can be found online. The Jews even, performed what was called "reverse circumcision."

mmmm, makes my skin crawl....LOLOLO

Then Paul says, I wish that they would go emasculate themselves! NOT SO CRUEL NOW IS IT

I have a couple questions for you?

Why is it that you suggest it was only the gentiles turning away from the gospel?

Why are you suggesting the problem is the Jews pushing circumcision?

Why do you agree by suggestion that the Jews were the problem all along as Frogster has been saying?

Why does Paul say to throw out the law in Gal 4:30, while providing no similar statement concerning anything about paganism?

Since it seems to me that the only thing Paul seems to deal with are things that relate to Judaism as a cause and the activity of observing days also fits with Judaism which Paul says to reject (Gal4:30) that Paul is not dealing with paganism.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

in chapter 7 of romans, paul is talking about the ten commandments, he starts the chapter with a discussion about adultery. he likens a woman's commitment to her husband as being bound to him by the law.

in verses 7 -12 he talks about how he would not have known sin but for the law, other than that he says he was oblivious to sin, did'nt know he was sinning.

Romans 7:12-13 ( NKJV ) 12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

he saw that sin was his problem and the law helped him to see that.

he also says:

Romans 7:22 ( NKJV ) 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

the law was a delight for him.

finally last verse of the chapter he says this:

Romans 7:25 ( NKJV ) 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

paul says he serves the law of God, and he never mentions the mosaic law in this chapter, he's only talking about the ten commandments.

1 John 3:4 ( NKJV ) 4Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. this is the bible's definition of sin which makes what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 ( NKJV ) 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

also Jesus said:
Mark 7:20-23 ( NKJV ) 20And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

very plain to me. he will tell those who practice "lawlessness" that He don't know them.

and you talk about the "whole law" as if there is no distinction between the Mosaic law and the Ten commandments.

we know that the Mosaic law is a law of physical works, in that, it takes a physical effort to perform.

the Ten Commandments are a spiritual law, requires no physical effort to perform, just a right attitude of mind, to love God first, and then your fellow man.

Romans 7:14 ( NKJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

you know he's not talking about the Mosaic law here. you do see the difference?

if not, consider this, something else Jesus said:

John 7:22-23 ( NKJV ) 22Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

be careful when you read this. the only thing i see that would break the law of moses would be the "not being circumcised" part of the verse.

Jesus said that they would circumcise on the sabbath to keep one from breaking the Mosaic law, but they were accusing Him of healing on the sabbath breaking the ten commandments!

notice, in their mind, their act of "circumcising", did not break the sabbath commandment, but, they performed the act (of circumcision) in order not to break the mosaic law!

now, think about it, they did not fear breaking the sabbath law, but they feared breaking the Mosaic law. remember, they were doing something on the sabbath, the same thing they were accusing Jesus of doing!

Question for you John.

Who besides the SDA divide the law into catagories?

Frogster has been saying the law is a single undivided unit as long as I have seen him on this site. He backs it up with scripture as Gal 5:3 and James 2:10. Here you say Paul is talking about the law and citing the ten commandments which he says he is free from 7:4, 6.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry Y,but facts are facts.The context clearly indicates it was Moses,Judaism,and Circumcision that was the issue.

And yes,they were turning away from faith to Judaism.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Good point! They were not returning to paganism but Judaism.

bugkiller

 

[ricker]

con·vo·ca·tion (from dictionary.com)
–noun
1. the act of convoking.
2. the state of being convoked.
3. a group of people gathered in answer to a summons; assembly.
4. Anglican Church . either of the two provincial synods or assemblies of the clergy.
5. Protestant Episcopal Church .
a. an assembly of the clergy of part of a diocese.
b. the area represented at such an assembly.
6. a formal assembly at a college or university, esp. for a graduation ceremony.

Leviticus 23:1-44 ( NKJV ) 1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’S Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”
9And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12And you shall offer on that day, when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the Lord, for a sweet aroma; and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the Lord. 18And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the Lord, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 19Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the Lord your God.’”
23Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.’”
26And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27“Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”
33Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 34“Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. 35On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. 36For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
37‘These are the feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38besides the Sabbaths of the Lord, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the Lord.
39‘Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the Lord for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 40And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths, 43that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’”
44So Moses declared to the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

i guess you've never read lev 23, where you see the command to assemble on God's Sabbath, so i posted the whole chapter for you.

it is interesting that the apostles were meeting on the day of pentecost, as prescribed in the commandment to keep God's feasts, when they received the Holy Spirit.

if you'll notice, the day of pentecost or "feast of firstfruits" is always on a sunday, the first day of the week, and is one of the annual sabbaths that fall throughout the year.

Mark 2:27 ( NKJV ) 27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

the sabbath was made for man, that includes gentiles too.

God revealed His ways through the COI. the COI was to set the example to the rest of the world as to how God expected one to live one's life. they were called out to be seperate from the rest of the world and it's ways.

so, after reading this post, maybe the sabbath will be more than a "rest thing" for you.

The commandment included in the ten does not say anything about worship, but Lev. 23 in an expanded explanation to Israel does say convocation. Exodus 31 also says the Sabbath is
a sign only for Israel.

Perhaps you follow all the feasts and convocations in Lev. 23, but most Christians don't.

Mark 2 does not say "mankind". I'm sure you are smart enough to know that in context "mankind" is not the only possible meaning.

It is interesting that the Spirit would come to the early church on the first day of the week. Acts 2 says they were all together on Pentecost. I'm not sure that means they were celebrating the feast as Jews do or not. (which they had every right to do, but doesn't mean it's required.)

Thanks for the conversation!

 

[YosemiteSam]

Interesting position you have there Sam. The Jews aren't a problem so Peter reverts back to Jewish custom only when Jews appear on the scene. Amazing! What more proof do you need? You even provided the argument against yourself.

Bugkiller,
You don't even pay attention to the text when you read it do you? Peter reverts back to Jewish custom when Jews appear on the scene. Dude, you shouldn't even be posting!

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Would it be wrong to asume that you are talking about the sabbath mentioned in the ten commandments of Ex 20? If it is then who does this apply to? If you say it applies to the Israelites (Jews) I might agree that it exists. If you are saying to the non believing world in Jesus I would also say yes. If you are saying it is in existance for the born again Chirstian believer I would have to say no, not as a specific week day.

So you don't know. We get it!

 

[JohnRabbit]

The commandment included in the ten does not say anything about worship, but Lev. 23 in an expanded explanation to Israel does say convocation. Exodus 31 also says the Sabbath is
a sign only for Israel.

Perhaps you follow all the feasts and convocations in Lev. 23, but most Christians don't.

Mark 2 does not say "mankind". I'm sure you are smart enough to know that in context "mankind" is not the only possible meaning.

It is interesting that the Spirit would come to the early church on the first day of the week. Acts 2 says they were all together on Pentecost. I'm not sure that means they were celebrating the feast as Jews do or not. (which they had every right to do, but doesn't mean it's required.)

Thanks for the conversation!

ok

 

[JohnRabbit]

Question for you John.

Who besides the SDA divide the law into catagories?

Frogster has been saying the law is a single undivided unit as long as I have seen him on this site. He backs it up with scripture as Gal 5:3 and James 2:10. Here you say Paul is talking about the law and citing the ten commandments which he says he is free from 7:4, 6.

bugkiller

bugkiller,

the ten commandments and the statutes and judgements are spelled out in ex 20-24.

i posted a portion here:

Exodus 24:3-4 ( KJV ) 3And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exodus 24:7 ( KJV ) 7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exodus 24:12 ( KJV ) 12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Exodus 24:18 ( KJV ) 18And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.


notice that moses wrote the statutes and the judgements and God wrote the ten commandments.

it's interesting to me, that God wrote part of the law and moses wrote part of the law, of course the part that moses wrote we know as the mosaic law, (which had the ministration of death ex 21:12), and later the sacraficial laws were added.

i see it as God writing the spiritual part of the law and moses writing the physical applications of the law to our everyday life.

the whole law would include the ten commandments, the law of the tithe, the marriage law, the mosaic law.

only certain laws were abolished as they were part of the old covenant agreement. but all of the law was not abolished.

the marriage law was not abolished, neither was the law of the tithe.

and certainly not the ten commandments!

however the mosaic law was no longer binding, was done away after the sacrifice of the Christ.

moses wrote the book of the law and God wrote the tablets of the testimony (the ten commandments)

Exodus 31:18 ( KJV ) 18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
look at this:

in the following verse, moses is talking to his father-in-law, jethro,

Exodus 18:16 ( KJV ) 16When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

this conversation takes place before the covenant at mt sinai, so what statutes and laws is moses speaking of here?

and of course there's this:

Genesis 26:5 ( KJV ) 5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

now look:

James 2:8-13 ( KJV ) 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

here is james talking long after the crucifiction and he's talking about the "whole law", but you know he's talking about the ten commandments.

now if you want to parse at this point, go ahead, but tell me what part of the law you know of that can be referred to as the "royal law" and "law of liberty"?

the answer is the ten commandments:

Romans 7:14 ( KJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual:...

it's the only part of the law that came directly from God!

and maybe this verse from galatians is clearer in its meaning for you:

Galatians 3:10 ( KJV ) 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[bugkiller]

bugkiller,

the ten commandments and the statutes and judgements are spelled out in ex 20-24.

i posted a portion here:

Exodus 24:3-4 ( KJV ) 3And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exodus 24:7 ( KJV ) 7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exodus 24:12 ( KJV ) 12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Exodus 24:18 ( KJV ) 18And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.


notice that moses wrote the statutes and the judgements and God wrote the ten commandments.

it's interesting to me, that God wrote part of the law and moses wrote part of the law, of course the part that moses wrote we know as the mosaic law, (which had the ministration of death ex 21:12), and later the sacraficial laws were added.

i see it as God writing the spiritual part of the law and moses writing the physical applications of the law to our everyday life.

I understand you to say that Moses is solely responsible for everything except the ten commandments. My position is that Moses got the laws he wrote from God: not something Moses made up.

the whole law would include the ten commandments, the law of the tithe, the marriage law, the mosaic law.

only certain laws were abolished as they were part of the old covenant agreement. but all of the law was not abolished.

the marriage law was not abolished, neither was the law of the tithe.

and certainly not the ten commandments!

Where is the fourth reinstituted in the NT/NC as alaw requirement? Verse please.

however the mosaic law was no longer binding, was done away after the sacrifice of the Christ.

How is this? You just said the tithe is binding and it is clearly not in the ten commandments. That makes it a law of Moses according to you. The law of Moses is what got nailed to the cross according to you.

moses wrote the book of the law and God wrote the tablets of the testimony (the ten commandments)

Exodus 31:18 ( KJV ) 18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
look at this:

in the following verse, moses is talking to his father-in-law, jethro,

Exodus 18:16 ( KJV ) 16When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

this conversation takes place before the covenant at mt sinai, so what statutes and laws is moses speaking of here?

and of course there's this:

Genesis 26:5 ( KJV ) 5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

now look:

James 2:8-13 ( KJV ) 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

here is james talking long after the crucifiction and he's talking about the "whole law", but you know he's talking about the ten commandments.

No James is including the ten commandments. Paul's reference to the law also included the ten commandments (Romans 7 is a good example). Amen to James, the law is a single undivisable unit.

now if you want to parse at this point, go ahead, but tell me what part of the law you know of that can be referred to as the "royal law" and "law of liberty"?

There is no liberty under the law.The 'law of liberty' is not a reference to the law (of Moses or the ten commandments).

the answer is the ten commandments:

Romans 7:14 ( KJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual:...

it's the only part of the law that came directly from God!

and maybe this verse from galatians is clearer in its meaning for you:

Galatians 3:10 ( KJV ) 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Out of context all by itself you have a point. In context you have no support. I can use Gal 5:4 all by itself to disprove your implied meaning. Here it is: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This verse says if you adhere to the law of the OC which includes the law of Moses and the ten commandments, you have no salvation.

bugkiller

 

[JohnRabbit]

I understand you to say that Moses is solely responsible for everything except the ten commandments. My position is that Moses got the laws he wrote from God: not something Moses made up. Where is the fourth reinstituted in the NT/NC as alaw requirement? Verse please. How is this? You just said the tithe is binding and it is clearly not in the ten commandments. That makes it a law of Moses according to you. The law of Moses is what got nailed to the cross according to you.No James is including the ten commandments. Paul's reference to the law also included the ten commandments (Romans 7 is a good example). Amen to James, the law is a single undivisable unit. There is no liberty under the law.The 'law of liberty' is not a reference to the law (of Moses or the ten commandments).Out of context all by itself you have a point. In context you have no support. I can use Gal 5:4 all by itself to disprove your implied meaning. Here it is: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This verse says if you adhere to the law of the OC which includes the law of Moses and the ten commandments, you have no salvation.

bugkiller

ok,

you said:

I understand you to say that Moses is solely responsible for everything except the ten commandments. My
position is that Moses got the laws he wrote from God: not something Moses made up.

did you not see in the verse i posted, verse 4 of exodus 24, and moses wrote all the words of the Lord!

now, notice what i said:

moses wrote the statutes and the judgements and God wrote the ten commandements. where did you get moses made up somethig from out of that?

again you said:

Where is the fourth reinstituted in the NT/NC as alaw requirement? Verse please.

there is no verse that states that emphatically in the nt, but by reading the acts of the apostles, we can see that they still observed God's sabbaths.

and then:

How is this? You just said the tithe is binding and it is clearly not in the ten commandments. That makes it
a law of Moses according to you. The law of Moses is what got nailed to the cross according to you.

speaking of abraham, the bible says this:

Genesis 14:20 ( NKJV ) 20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

so, looks to me, the tithe was in effect before moses. and, btw, it is not according to me.

and again you said:

There is no liberty under the law.The 'law of liberty' is not a reference to the law (of Moses or the ten
commandments).

if you can read james 2:8-13, and think that james is not talking about the ten commandements then all i can say is whatever.

and you said:

Out of context all by itself you have a point. In context you have no support. I can use Gal 5:4 all by itself
to disprove your implied meaning. Here it is: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:3-4 ( KJV ) 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:10 ( KJV ) 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

of course you can't see that paul is talking about the mosaic law and that the "whole law" in this case means "all things which are written in the book of the law", the part of the law that required physical effort to accomplish.

and you know that the spiritual law of God, (the ten commandments), requires no physical work to accomplish.

out of context? whatever.

and finally you said:

Galatians 3:10 ( KJV ) 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This verse says if you adhere to the law of the OC which includes the law of Moses and the ten commandments,
you have no salvation.

this must be "the gospel according to bugkiller", because the verse says nothing about the ten commandments!

 

[Frogster]

bugkiller,

the ten commandments and the statutes and judgements are spelled out in ex 20-24.

i posted a portion here:

Exodus 24:3-4 ( KJV ) 3And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exodus 24:7 ( KJV ) 7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exodus 24:12 ( KJV ) 12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Exodus 24:18 ( KJV ) 18And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.


notice that moses wrote the statutes and the judgements and God wrote the ten commandments.

it's interesting to me, that God wrote part of the law and moses wrote part of the law, of course the part that moses wrote we know as the mosaic law, (which had the ministration of death ex 21:12), and later the sacraficial laws were added.

i see it as God writing the spiritual part of the law and moses writing the physical applications of the law to our everyday life.

the whole law would include the ten commandments, the law of the tithe, the marriage law, the mosaic law.

only certain laws were abolished as they were part of the old covenant agreement. but all of the law was not abolished.

the marriage law was not abolished, neither was the law of the tithe.

and certainly not the ten commandments!

however the mosaic law was no longer binding, was done away after the sacrifice of the Christ.

moses wrote the book of the law and God wrote the tablets of the testimony (the ten commandments)

Exodus 31:18 ( KJV ) 18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
look at this:

in the following verse, moses is talking to his father-in-law, jethro,

Exodus 18:16 ( KJV ) 16When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

this conversation takes place before the covenant at mt sinai, so what statutes and laws is moses speaking of here?

and of course there's this:

Genesis 26:5 ( KJV ) 5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

now look:

James 2:8-13 ( KJV ) 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

here is james talking long after the crucifiction and he's talking about the "whole law", but you know he's talking about the ten commandments.

now if you want to parse at this point, go ahead, but tell me what part of the law you know of that can be referred to as the "royal law" and "law of liberty"?

the answer is the ten commandments:

Romans 7:14 ( KJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual:...

it's the only part of the law that came directly from God!

and maybe this verse from galatians is clearer in its meaning for you:

Galatians 3:10 ( KJV ) 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Your verse proves it was one.Gal 3:10,cursed for not doing ALL in the book of the law.


What was written on stone,that was set aside?

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters, graven in stones, began with glory, so that the children of Israel could not fix their eyes on the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face, a glory which is annulled;
3:11 For if that annulled was introduced with glory, much rather that which abides subsists in glory.

Can you give ma any practical verse that show the jews dividing the law?
Why did paul say this?


Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.



James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Why this?

7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

 

[YosemiteSam]

Frogster
First, before we are to go any further, you must address the issues that I posted in post #23. I am sure our audience would like to hear you answer at least one question.

I posted “How could Paul not want them to return to the Sabbath when they were coming to assembly on the Sabbath? They had been it since their conversion.

A later example of Sabbath keeping. 1 Cor 5:8 Here the church is keeping the Days of Unleaven Bread. Two High days are included here and these are annual Sabbaths. 1st Corinthians was written during this time in 55 AD. Six years later than his letter to the Galatians.

Day of Pentecost, a high Sabbath also, is found being observed in 57 AD Act 21; 8 years later, almost a decade after the letter to the Galatians.

So we have already established that the new testament church had been keeping the Sabbath from its initiation in Act 2, which is 31 AD to 57 AD. Twenty six years.

If you would, kindly address the aforementioned issues before proceeding with any other post.

Secondly, I have stated, whether to your agreement or not, the answer to Gal 4; however, this it appears is not the issue, as you have attempted to direct the attention toward the subject of “law” on several occasions. I would that we have kept the Sabbath at the foremost of our discussion, yet from your view, which you have stated, it appears a hindrance to the subject as a whole. I have taken into account your post from current and other threads and believe that you would have me think in the following manner:

I no longer have to keep the Sabbath for all the law has been abolished, nailed to the cross and no longer binding on any of us, and if I consider thus, then what of the other nine? I can say, they have been done away as well, therefore, should I be judged? By what? Scripture says, “For where there no law there is no transgression.” Now, if I should think thus, that there is no transgression, then what have I? Lawlessness, yes, I shall not be judged for any of my doings. If sin is the transgression of the law and all the law was nailed to the cross then it is sin that was abolished?

Now, I also, must consider those who have gone before. They will not be judged for there is no sin. How say we, now, that one is condemned to hell and the other to the heavenly Jerusalem? In my new reasoning, I, must count all will attain to the glory of the Kingdom of God. I now have a new glimpse into the Kingdom of Heaven, thanks to my new reasoning. Adulterers, fornicators, lawlessness, uncleanness, idolaters, sorcery, contentions, jealousies, selfishness, envying, murderers, drunkards, and such will have part in the Kingdom of God.

Yes, I think so, that I am free now, to commit murder, to commit adultery, to lie and steal and to blaspheme God. To whom should I give thanks? To whom should I consider? Thanks to this reasoning, no one, for what could befall me?

Mr. Frogster, should I consider such logic? I cannot. Many like to argue that the Ten Commandments have been abolished, but from which is stated above, one can clearly see this cannot be so. James wrote in 79 AD, Js 2.8 of the “royal law” and stated, “If you fulfill the royal law according to the scriptures…you do well”…v11 “For he that said, Do not commit adultery,…So speak you and so do, as that that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” You see there is a “law of God”, “law of Moses”, and they do differ. God did not suffer Moses to write the Ten Commandments, which have been, before shown to be a spiritual law. Galatians was speaking about the physical part of law as the Galatians were looking to the “works of law” to bring them closer to God. Paul spoke of circumcision and washings, these are sacrifices and works of law which Paul said were abolished. Christ was our sacrifice!

I hope you look into this.

Thanks,
Y

 

[bugkiller]

Interesting position you have there Sam. The Jews aren't a problem so Peter reverts back to Jewish custom only when Jews appear on the scene. Amazing! What more proof do you need? You even provided the argument against yourself.

Bugkiller,
You don't even pay attention to the text when you read it do you? Peter reverts back to Jewish custom when Jews appear on the scene. Dude, you shouldn't even be posting!

Y

What do you make of this?
Galatians 2:11-15



11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

bugkiller