Does morality exist without God?

[razeontherock]

The problem is that when you say the "wrong attitude", what you mean is "a viewpoint that disagrees with mine".

Nope! I am not the Biblical standard ...

 

[Aryn9189]

I also want to know. What sort of attitude does one need for reading the Bible? I am not really keen on accepting anything by faith. I assume this works against me, in your opinion. I believe I am moral despite not being Christian, and even though I read the NT a lot when I was a kid I did not base my morals on this. I don't believe in harming ANY person, and I consider all animals to be people. I don't think even Jesus taught to not kill spiders, or to be vegetarian. In fact, doesn't the Bible say that humans are superior to other animals?

 

[razeontherock]

Well if I consider myself open to all possibilities then I should read it.

But what kind of attitude am I supposed to have when I read it?

Here's what I have found to be helpful, personally:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him. Pray with a quiet, meditative spirit, for exactly that. Ask Him to show Himself strong to you, in ways you haven't known yet. It's ok to stir up your hunger, but try not to let that stir up your emotions.

2. Do this every morning, and every evening. We can talk about Scriptural reasons in depth later, but it is God's way.

3. As you read, anything that looks good PRAY FOR IT. Specific examples I've found powerful:

a. Is 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. (Jesus got this, prophetically. Talk about humility!)

b. “That[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]God[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]our Lord Jesus Christ,[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]Father[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]glory, may give unto you[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]spirit[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]wisdom[bless and do not curse]and[bless and do not curse]revelation[bless and do not curse]in[bless and do not curse]the knowledge[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]him:” Eph 1:17

c. Realize EVERY instance of "the wicked man" in Proverbs is you (me / us).
Yeah, ouch.

4. If there's time for more involved praying after this, fine; but more likely there will be other things you need to go do. Don't think they take you away from God because they DON'T! Just don't leave home w/o Him. It's in the doing that prayer seems to be most helpful. "Pray w/o ceasing," keep a prayerful attitude; there is room in His kingdom for our own unique style. The calling is to abundant LIFE.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't believe in harming ANY person, and I consider all animals to be people. I don't think even Jesus taught to not kill spiders, or to be vegetarian. In fact, doesn't the Bible say that humans are superior to other animals?

Dogs I've had as pets certainly had their own personality, to be sure. I'm not sure I tried to relate to them on the same level as another person; emotionally they never get past a human at about age 5 or 6, but we could certainly understand one another.

I don't find the Bible to speak to this issue you raise, at all. I would term it that if the Bible speaks of morality at all, it is in terms of our relationship to G-d Himself, and how we relate to our fellow mortals around us affects this. Things like what you raise here flow out of that, by extension. With that as a basis, you don't see "being given dominion over everything in the earth" as being superior, but rather as being servant of all.

I still know people who won't kill spiders

 

[underpressure]

Here's what I have found to be helpful, personally:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him. Pray with a quiet, meditative spirit, for exactly that. Ask Him to show Himself strong to you, in ways you haven't known yet. It's ok to stir up your hunger, but try not to let that stir up your emotions.

2. Do this every morning, and every evening. We can talk about Scriptural reasons in depth later, but it is God's way.

3. As you read, anything that looks good PRAY FOR IT. Specific examples I've found powerful:

a. Is 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. (Jesus got this, prophetically. Talk about humility!)

b. “That[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]God[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]our Lord Jesus Christ,[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]Father[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]glory, may give unto you[bless and do not curse]the[bless and do not curse]spirit[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]wisdom[bless and do not curse]and[bless and do not curse]revelation[bless and do not curse]in[bless and do not curse]the knowledge[bless and do not curse]of[bless and do not curse]him:” Eph 1:17

c. Realize EVERY instance of "the wicked man" in Proverbs is you (me / us).
Yeah, ouch.

4. If there's time for more involved praying after this, fine; but more likely there will be other things you need to go do. Don't think they take you away from God because they DON'T! Just don't leave home w/o Him. It's in the doing that prayer seems to be most helpful. "Pray w/o ceasing," keep a prayerful attitude; there is room in His kingdom for our own unique style. The calling is to abundant LIFE.

I was curious when you mentioned Proverbs, so had a quick read and was actually quite pleasantly surprised that there was some useful stuff in there, one line in particular I'm going to have to remember to recite to myself now and again in certain situations. Haven't started on the bible yet though..

 

[SithDoughnut]

Nope! I am not the Biblical standard ...

Exactly. So don't be so convinced that you know it well enough to tell people they're not following it.

 

[Aryn9189]

Dogs I've had as pets certainly had their own personality, to be sure. I'm not sure I tried to relate to them on the same level as another person; emotionally they never get past a human at about age 5 or 6, but we could certainly understand one another.

I don't find the Bible to speak to this issue you raise, at all. I would term it that if the Bible speaks of morality at all, it is in terms of our relationship to G-d Himself, and how we relate to our fellow mortals around us affects this. Things like what you raise here flow out of that, by extension. With that as a basis, you don't see "being given dominion over everything in the earth" as being superior, but rather as being servant of all.

I still know people who won't kill spiders

So what's up with people justifying their wastefulness with Christianity? for example, drilling for oil instead of looking for renewable sources of energy? I know there are a few people in the oil industry who are against renewable energy because it would take money away from their yachts and mansions, but what about the average person who is all for supporting the oil companies because "God wouldn't let us run out"? I have actually heard that excuse from Christians. Is it moral to hunt and fish species into extinction for food that we don't need, to destroy the oceans to get oil we don't need, to cut down entire forests that have stood for centuries to get wood that we don't need? There are alternative resources we could use in every one of those examples, but nevermind that, it's our planet and we'll do what we want to it. Is that moral? And if the justification for all of that comes from the Bible, what does that say about the Bible?

 

[razeontherock]

So what's up with people justifying their wastefulness with Christianity? for example, drilling for oil instead of looking for renewable sources of energy? I know there are a few people in the oil industry who are against renewable energy because it would take money away from their yachts and mansions, but what about the average person who is all for supporting the oil companies because "God wouldn't let us run out"? I have actually heard that excuse from Christians. Is it moral to hunt and fish species into extinction for food that we don't need, to destroy the oceans to get oil we don't need, to cut down entire forests that have stood for centuries to get wood that we don't need? There are alternative resources we could use in every one of those examples, but nevermind that, it's our planet and we'll do what we want to it. Is that moral? And if the justification for all of that comes from the Bible, what does that say about the Bible?

I love reading a post like, especially when it's from a non Christian! Your points are all too true. None of the justification for any of that comes from the Bible; quite the opposite, in fact. We are told to be "faithful stewards," and even that we will be Judged for how we perform that task. (Or not)

What you're describing here is greed, pure and simple. You know, "the root of all evil." Contrary to what Mr Sithdoughnut had to say a few posts back, yes, it is quite possible to know the Bible well enough to know when it's being violated in specific instances, and sometimes it's REALLY simple.

I'll take that a few steps further, and point out that the US wastes non-petroleum energy on a VAST scale, all of which could be eradicated w/o crippling short-term economic effects. We don't, simply because no one individual pays "that much" for the current waste. The only objection I have to anything you've said here, is the idea that anyone "drills for oil we don't need." Have you ever truly considered what our life would be like tomorrow, if literally ALL supply of oil dried up overnight, for any reason?

I have. Have you seen Mad Max? It would not be pretty. As a young child hearing the POTUS' address of "the energy crises," instantly I "knew" the immediate results would be outlaw of all motor sports, and heavy taxation on petrol to subsidize research into alternative fuel.

Still waiting ...

 

[razeontherock]

I was curious when you mentioned Proverbs, so had a quick read and was actually quite pleasantly surprised that there was some useful stuff in there, one line in particular I'm going to have to remember to recite to myself now and again in certain situations. Haven't started on the bible yet though..

Proverbs is neat in that it has 31 chapters, and there are (at most) 31 days in a month. It's an excellent, super-quick habit to read one chapter a day, and 31 applies almost exclusively to women so in 30 day months we don't miss much This is a habit I wish All Christians followed, and I will guarantee you if you do this, you will always find at least one thing you read to be applicable that day.

What will come in really handy with this is having a lot of different versions to compare. Here are 2 free sources: Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.

I usually use blueletter and it has great study aids you might need some help to understand what use they have, but the second link is good because it has a version called "The Message," that is in really plain contemporary English. It has it's weaknesses like everything else, but those are mostly in the Gospels. It's especially good in some places, and Proverbs chapters 8, maybe even 6-10, strikes me as being one of those "good spots." I will say that after reading the Bible extensively for decades, The Message really got through to me in ways I had never seen before, FWIW

 

[Gracchus]

Does morality exist without God?

First we have to ask: Does morality exist?

Then we have to ask another question before we can address the topic. I do not foresee an answer.

 

[darwinian12345]

This is just one of those questions that depends upon if you believe in god or not. If you don't, then yes they exist without god, if you do, then you have a choice, perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. I've often heard from people that non believers have no morals...trust me, I still have some.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

u r wrong


because a drug dealer would expect a person not to lie to him or her

would protect the family

but still cheat to make profits or kill for $$

i know atheists who r married... if they do outside of marriage... they know it would be ADULTERY

HM HM

celebrities are having extra martial relationships..

truth is evident

This is just one of those questions that depends upon if you believe in god or not. If you don't, then yes they exist without god, if you do, then you have a choice, perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. I've often heard from people that non believers have no morals...trust me, I still have some.

 

[Aryn9189]

I don't understand what you mean. You can be moral without believing in God. An atheist might think that, since this life is all there is, what we do matters, and live accordingly, trying to do the least amount of harm. Is that immoral/amoral just because it's not biblical?

 

[razeontherock]

You can't say that's un-Biblical, nor can you say that's Biblical. The Bible doesn't really speak in such terms. You could look at individual things through the lens of the Bible, to see how much of it lined up with it's precepts. It would be an interesting observation to make, and I'd think most of it would line up ...

 

[Gracchus]

You can't say that's un-Biblical, nor can you say that's Biblical. The Bible doesn't really speak in such terms. You could look at individual things through the lens of the Bible, to see how much of it lined up with it's precepts. It would be an interesting observation to make, and I'd think most of it would line up ...

The Bible isn't a lens. The Bible is a kaleidoscope of colored broken glass. Everyone who picks it up sees something different.

 

[SithDoughnut]

The Bible isn't a lens. The Bible is a kaleidoscope of colored broken glass. Everyone who picks it up sees something different.

That's possibly the best metaphor for the Bible that I've seen.

 

[razeontherock]

Sith and I have had discussions along similar lines. We can all 3 agree on something? FTW!

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

why we do wrong n we know its/ things r wrong to do

but we still continue to do ?


strange huh??

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

if lucifer had emotions ... then was he suspectible of sinning ... so therefore sin is not as bad as it seems ??

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

something simple, who created Evil? good?