Does morality exist without God?

[ivebeenshown]

No, "existence" is a NOUN! "Exist" is a verb.

You're right! "Existing" (along with possible forms), not "existence", is a verb.

"Something" does not perform "existence", rather "existence" is a possible property of "something".

"Existent" (not "existence") is an adjective that could apply to "something", but applying the adjective "existent" to any noun is merely an alternate way of conveying that the noun is performing the action of "existing."

 

[drstevej]

existing is a participle.

 

[ivebeenshown]

existing is a participle.

Aye! I am in much need of a grammar refresher course!

"Existing" is a participle, "exist" is a verb.

 

[drstevej]

I learned English grammar when I took Greek.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

do we have the nature / innated intent to do wrong?

 

[Eudaimonist]

do we have the nature / innated intent to do wrong?

No, not if you are suggesting that we are innately evil like "Orcs".

We have various natural motivations that can lead us either to commit good or evil acts. When aren't born with the kind of polished moral character that allows us to wisely do the right thing in all circumstances. This is something we need to work on and develop in our lives.

So, the situation isn't as simple as being innately good or innately evil. What we have innately is the capacity to develop wisdom and character, and the ability to make choices using judgment.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

No, not if you are suggesting that we are innately evil like "Orcs".

We have various natural motivations that can lead us either to commit good or evil acts. When aren't born with the kind of polished moral character that allows us to wisely do the right thing in all circumstances. This is something we need to work on and develop in our lives.

So, the situation isn't as simple as being innately good or innately evil. What we have innately is the capacity to develop wisdom and character, and the ability to make choices using judgment.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Good answer! And this is only one problem I have with Calvinism, and apparently all of reformed theology. Which is apparently what you were exposed to, and also reject. At the same time, it is observable across the board that children learning to talk need to be taught how to speak properly, but pick up cursing much quicker. This seems to suggest we have some natural inclination towards evil. It can further be observed that the Bible's stated relationship between our language (tongue) and the rest of our existence has some merit; only one of several Biblical points confirmed by your experience within Amway.

 

[SithDoughnut]

At the same time, it is observable across the board that children learning to talk need to be taught how to speak properly, but pick up cursing much quicker. This seems to suggest we have some natural inclination towards evil.

"Speaking properly" and cursing are not exactly equal. Children will of course pick up a few words faster than an entire grammatical and linguistical system. Of course, there's no reason to assume that curse words are even evil in the first place, seeing as the list is redefined regularly - even within Christianity.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Good answer! And this is only one problem I have with Calvinism, and apparently all of reformed theology. Which is apparently what you were exposed to, and also reject.

Most of my exposure to Calvinism has been here at CF. Very little of it has been outside.

At the same time, it is observable across the board that children learning to talk need to be taught how to speak properly, but pick up cursing much quicker. This seems to suggest we have some natural inclination towards evil.

I think a better example would be sibling rivalry.

But we have natural inclinations towards good as well. It isn't all one-sided. And there is no question that children need good parenting to point them generally in the right direction, so that children can take charge of polishing their character when they are independent adults.

It can further be observed that the Bible's stated relationship between our language (tongue) and the rest of our existence has some merit

I'm not sure what you mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

Children will of course pick up a few words faster than an entire grammatical and linguistical system. Of course, there's no reason to assume that curse words are even evil in the first place, seeing as the list is redefined regularly - even within Christianity.

Children don't even need to be taught curse words, but will pick them up, and their use in context, observably more readily than non-curse words of similar complexity.

Just an observation; make of it what you will.

 

[razeontherock]

I wrote "It can further be observed that the Bible's stated relationship between our language (tongue) and the rest of our existence has some merit"

To which you responded

I'm not sure what you mean.

The Bible places what seems like undo importance on our ability to "bridle our tongue." I'm pointing out this does have considerable impact on the development of character, for those of us who care about such things. And I'm not really sure how to make sense of that phenomena, based on logic.

 

[chris4243]

Children don't even need to be taught curse words, but will pick them up, and their use in context, observably more readily than non-curse words of similar complexity.

Just an observation; make of it what you will.

Like other interjections, "curse words" have very simple meanings, mainly "that hurt" or "I'm upset", and their meaning as such is very easy to pick up. Using curse words (swear words if you prefer) is usually neither cursing nor swearing, nor do I see anything wrong with them over other interjections such as "arg!" or "ouch!".

For example, suppose a man stubs his foot on a rock and shouts "damn it!". If you were to paraphrase this for someone who didn't understand, would you go with
1) I call upon God to send this rock that I stubbed my toe on to the fiery pits of Hell!
2) Ow, that REALLY hurt!

 

[razeontherock]

And yet verbal expression of positive sensation does not come so naturally. Explain that?

 

[chris4243]

And yet verbal expression of positive sensation does not come so naturally. Explain that?

Don't your kids on occasion say "whee!", "yay!", "goodie!", "whooo!", etc?

 

[razeontherock]

Sure. And my point is the negative expressions tend to be more verbal, and the positive less so. I've witnessed this across the board, at the age where self-consciousness doesn't much factor in. Explanation?

 

[chris4243]

Maybe you should get better kids

 

[Eudaimonist]

The Bible places what seems like undo importance on our ability to "bridle our tongue." I'm pointing out this does have considerable impact on the development of character, for those of us who care about such things. And I'm not really sure how to make sense of that phenomena, based on logic.

Oh, logic has no trouble with that. It is likely that when you say something, e.g. something self-defeating like "I'm a failure", you are helping to form neural connections that reinforce such self-defeating thoughts.

I'm not sure what the problem with cursing would be, but if God is involved in the curse, perhaps the fear is that this would lead to impiety.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

Maybe you should get better kids

No, when i say I've witnessed this across the board, I mean a wide variety, w/o exception. And i do come into contact with a LOT of kids. Make a point to notice the type of thing I'm talking about here for a while, just observe.

 

[Sojourner1]

The point is that if you want to demonstrate that morality cannot exist without God, you have two options:

1. Demonstrate the existence of God

2. Define "God" in such a way so that "morality without God" becomes illogical.

I really brought up this argument because of Razeontherock's claim that "existence without God" is nonsensical, which I disagree with, for the above reasons.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. You can't really discuss the OP without getting into apologetics, and since this forum isn't GA it makes it a difficult OP to discuss. If you believe in God you are going to believe that morality exists because God established morality for mankind in order to keep our sinful nature under control. If you don't believe in God you are going to believe that morality is determined by society as a whole. This morality also keeps human beings under control and allows them to live together without causing too much harm to one another.

 

[suzybeezy]

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As Sojourner1 has explained, this thread has become a General Apologetics discussion and therefore we are left with no choice but to close it.

Reminder: THIS IS NOT GENERAL APOLOGETICS

as a reminder that THIS IS NOT GENERAL APOLOGETICS! Threads off topic to this forum (Ethics & Morality) will be closed. If we can find a forum where the thread is more appropriate, we will move it.

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