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Featured Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by boxman144, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to save people against their will, there's no need to preach them anything. Matthew 28:19 is as good a proof against your doctrine as any.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What am I adding? Can you please answer my question?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    How exactly does predestination make God just?
     
  4. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Under your doctrine, God created man to sin. So sin is itself of God and you claim that it is proof of God's moral attributes. Those are logically opposed ideas.

    God does not regard (favor or accept) sin. He didn't create man TO sin, something that the doctrine you preach adheres to. You call God a creator of sin and moral at the same time. Absurd.
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Sin is the result of free will, without which we would not be capable of loving God. So sin was inevitable because the cause of sin was absolutely necessary.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God created and causes sin according to scripture. But people want to sin so they are guilty when punished. We cannot know God unless sin happens. No mercy, no right or wrong, no Sovereignty. No love, no grace etc. apart from sin.
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whatever God does is Just. He cannot sin.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Free will adds a bunch to scripture that isn't there. Dispensationalism adds the kitchen sink on top of this that scripture never mentions. Probably more if we look for it.
     
  9. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    No. He created the things which choose to do that. The bible specifically says that God hates sin. He would literally be insane of he created men to do the thing he hates on purpose.
    No, under your doctrine, they sin because they have to, because God predestined them too. Then he punishes them for sinning.



    So Adam didn't know God before he sinned. Funny. God didn't love Adam until he sinned. Your doctrine is frankly, ridiculous.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s not an answer. Yes God is just which means that He will not do something that is unjust. It does not mean that anything God does whether it is just or not is just.
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    The scriptures are full of free will references. There are a lot more references to free will in the scriptures than there are references to the Trinity.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the OT law demands free will. No law in the NT.
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God cannot sin even if you think he is sinful.
     
  15. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Even when it is obviously unjust. God taught us what it means to be just and your doctrine says he can disregard that lesson because his sovereignty allows him to punish the innocent.

    That statement is false. If God did something that was unjust, then it would BE unjust. Why? Because he said that arbitrary justice is a false justice. He punishes the unjust, not the just. Romans 2 (which is in preparation for what Paul would write in the 9th chapter) establishes MEN as hypocritical because they judge men unrighteous for the same things they practice themselves. He then goes on to say that they cannot escape God's judgement who does not practice hypocrisy but certainly recognizes theirs as unjust. By the time he gets to chapter 8 he tells us that it is MAN who condemns others for the things they do wrong and GOD who delivers us from condemnation through the gospel of Jesus. Then in chapter 9 he shows us that God loved even Pharoah and was willing to give him all 10 plagues before he destroyed him, a show of MERCY, rather than condemnation if only Pharaoh would repent. He even tells Pharaoh that he raised him up so that people would see the power of God in him. Pharaoh rejected that purpose and resisted God's will that his people be brought out of Egypt.

    Your doctrine preaches that God needed Pharaoh to disobey to show what an awesome God he was.

    If true, this would, rather than make him great and glorious would make him petty and small. Any God who needs to pick on somebody smaller than him in order to exalt himself is no God at all.

    Your doctrine slanders God. It says that he causes men to be sinners so that people can see how great he is. It is not god-like at all, it is the equivalent of a child who picks the wings off of flies.

    The scripture in no way preaches that God you preach. The scripture is telling us that God gave Pharaoh every opportunity to repent, not that he made Pharaoh to sin in order to make himself look good.
     
  16. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well that is the Bible as written, I will accept it- sorry you don't! I don't believe God says one thing when He means another.

    You love using the word "refitted", for katartizo. Well refitted in Greek would be anakatartizo or fitted again! If that is what appeared in Romans 9 we would not even have this discussion for I would have agreed from the start.

    But the Bible doesn't say that so here we are
     
  17. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Which does not say that he made them TO be evil, only that he made them. But you just whistled right past your own illogic. Adam didn't know God until he sinned. That's exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches. John tells us that the way we know God is through obedience.
     
  18. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Now you need to learn how to read a concordance!

    Katartizo is:

    Speech: Verb

    Tense: Perfect

    Voice: Passive

    Mood: Participle

    Case: Accusative

    Number: Plural

    Gender: Neuter

    And the perfect is this:

    In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

    so it is not something that comes from th efactory and in the future needs an adjustment.

    But the adjustment comes from God anyway! So you say God refits them for destruction which implies they were saved and now lost because repaired them for destruction or adjusted them or refitted them.
     
  19. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    The bible says no such thing. If you want to worship a god who is a hypocrite and a liar, I can do nothing to stop you. But frankly I think that you have erected that idol to justify your own hypocrisy. The God of the bible says hypocrisy is a mortal sin.


    So did the Greek scholars who defined it from its use in scripture apparently. 'Adjusted' is another word they used to explain it's meaning. There are words for create and made which apply to something's beginning. Paul was not talking about that. Had God meant 'created' God would have inspired him to use that word.
     
  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul says he forms from the same lump vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
     
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