Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
It means nobody would ever respond unless he first saved them.


If you're going to save people against their will, there's no need to preach them anything. Matthew 28:19 is as good a proof against your doctrine as any.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,124
7,245
Dallas
✟873,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It makes him righteous and Just. Also merciful and revealing his sovereignty. In fact, sin reveals all of his moral attributes. People who hate God, usually make a golden calf to worship in his name.

How exactly does predestination make God just?
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
It makes him righteous and Just. Also merciful and revealing his sovereignty. In fact, sin reveals all of his moral attributes. People who hate God, usually make a golden calf to worship in his name.

Under your doctrine, God created man to sin. So sin is itself of God and you claim that it is proof of God's moral attributes. Those are logically opposed ideas.

God does not regard (favor or accept) sin. He didn't create man TO sin, something that the doctrine you preach adheres to. You call God a creator of sin and moral at the same time. Absurd.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,124
7,245
Dallas
✟873,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Under your doctrine, God created man to sin. So sin is itself of God and you claim that it is proof of God's moral attributes. Those are logically opposed ideas.

God does not regard (favor or accept) sin. He didn't create man TO sin, something that the doctrine you preach adheres to. You call God a creator of sin and moral at the same time. Absurd.

Sin is the result of free will, without which we would not be capable of loving God. So sin was inevitable because the cause of sin was absolutely necessary.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Under your doctrine, God created man to sin. So sin is itself of God and you claim that it is proof of God's moral attributes. Those are logically opposed ideas.

God does not regard (favor or accept) sin. He didn't create man TO sin, something that the doctrine you preach adheres to. You call God a creator of sin and moral at the same time. Absurd.
God created and causes sin according to scripture. But people want to sin so they are guilty when punished. We cannot know God unless sin happens. No mercy, no right or wrong, no Sovereignty. No love, no grace etc. apart from sin.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What am I adding? Can you please answer my question?
Free will adds a bunch to scripture that isn't there. Dispensationalism adds the kitchen sink on top of this that scripture never mentions. Probably more if we look for it.
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
God created and causes sin according to scripture.

No. He created the things which choose to do that. The bible specifically says that God hates sin. He would literally be insane of he created men to do the thing he hates on purpose.
But people want to sin so they are guilty when punished.

No, under your doctrine, they sin because they have to, because God predestined them too. Then he punishes them for sinning.



We cannot know God unless sin happens. No mercy, no right or wrong, no Sovereignty. No love, no grace etc. apart from sin.

So Adam didn't know God before he sinned. Funny. God didn't love Adam until he sinned. Your doctrine is frankly, ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No. He created the things which choose to do that. The bible specifically says that God hates sin. He would literally be insane of he created men to do the thing he hates on purpose.


No, under your doctrine, they sin because they have to, because God predestined them too. Then he punishes them for sinning.





So Adam didn't know God before he sinned. Funny. God didn't love Adam until he sinned. Your doctrine is frankly, ridiculous.
“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,124
7,245
Dallas
✟873,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Whatever God does is Just. He cannot sin.

That’s not an answer. Yes God is just which means that He will not do something that is unjust. It does not mean that anything God does whether it is just or not is just.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,124
7,245
Dallas
✟873,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Free will adds a bunch to scripture that isn't there. Dispensationalism adds the kitchen sink on top of this that scripture never mentions. Probably more if we look for it.

The scriptures are full of free will references. There are a lot more references to free will in the scriptures than there are references to the Trinity.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures are full of free will references. There are a lot more references to free will in the scriptures than there are references to the Trinity.
In the OT law demands free will. No law in the NT.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That’s not an answer. Yes God is just which means that He will not do something that is unjust. It does not mean that anything God does whether it is just or not is just.
God cannot sin even if you think he is sinful.
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Whatever God does is Just. He cannot sin.

Even when it is obviously unjust. God taught us what it means to be just and your doctrine says he can disregard that lesson because his sovereignty allows him to punish the innocent.

That statement is false. If God did something that was unjust, then it would BE unjust. Why? Because he said that arbitrary justice is a false justice. He punishes the unjust, not the just. Romans 2 (which is in preparation for what Paul would write in the 9th chapter) establishes MEN as hypocritical because they judge men unrighteous for the same things they practice themselves. He then goes on to say that they cannot escape God's judgement who does not practice hypocrisy but certainly recognizes theirs as unjust. By the time he gets to chapter 8 he tells us that it is MAN who condemns others for the things they do wrong and GOD who delivers us from condemnation through the gospel of Jesus. Then in chapter 9 he shows us that God loved even Pharoah and was willing to give him all 10 plagues before he destroyed him, a show of MERCY, rather than condemnation if only Pharaoh would repent. He even tells Pharaoh that he raised him up so that people would see the power of God in him. Pharaoh rejected that purpose and resisted God's will that his people be brought out of Egypt.

Your doctrine preaches that God needed Pharaoh to disobey to show what an awesome God he was.

If true, this would, rather than make him great and glorious would make him petty and small. Any God who needs to pick on somebody smaller than him in order to exalt himself is no God at all.

Your doctrine slanders God. It says that he causes men to be sinners so that people can see how great he is. It is not god-like at all, it is the equivalent of a child who picks the wings off of flies.

The scripture in no way preaches that God you preach. The scripture is telling us that God gave Pharaoh every opportunity to repent, not that he made Pharaoh to sin in order to make himself look good.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He doesn't show patience for them if he created them for the specific purpose of going to hell. He's very upset with them, hence hell. A God that would create a human that he designed to be evil and then complain that he was evil, would not be a sane God at all. A God that could do that would not be rational enough to create a universe.

Well that is the Bible as written, I will accept it- sorry you don't! I don't believe God says one thing when He means another.

What on earth are you referring too?

You love using the word "refitted", for katartizo. Well refitted in Greek would be anakatartizo or fitted again! If that is what appeared in Romans 9 we would not even have this discussion for I would have agreed from the start.

But the Bible doesn't say that so here we are
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)

Which does not say that he made them TO be evil, only that he made them. But you just whistled right past your own illogic. Adam didn't know God until he sinned. That's exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches. John tells us that the way we know God is through obedience.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Adjusted.

2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function.

It is changed or adjusted for destruction after coming from the factory. The word there is not created or made. There are perfectly good words for that and this isn't it.

Now you need to learn how to read a concordance!

Katartizo is:

Speech: Verb

Tense: Perfect

Voice: Passive

Mood: Participle

Case: Accusative

Number: Plural

Gender: Neuter

And the perfect is this:

In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

so it is not something that comes from th efactory and in the future needs an adjustment.

But the adjustment comes from God anyway! So you say God refits them for destruction which implies they were saved and now lost because repaired them for destruction or adjusted them or refitted them.
 
Upvote 0

Al Touthentop

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,940
888
61
VENETA
Visit site
✟34,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well that is the Bible as written, I will accept it- sorry you don't! I don't believe God says one thing when He means another.

The bible says no such thing. If you want to worship a god who is a hypocrite and a liar, I can do nothing to stop you. But frankly I think that you have erected that idol to justify your own hypocrisy. The God of the bible says hypocrisy is a mortal sin.


You love using the word "refitted", for katartizo.

So did the Greek scholars who defined it from its use in scripture apparently. 'Adjusted' is another word they used to explain it's meaning. There are words for create and made which apply to something's beginning. Paul was not talking about that. Had God meant 'created' God would have inspired him to use that word.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which does not say that he made them TO be evil, only that he made them. But you just whistled right past your own illogic. Adam didn't know God until he sinned. That's exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches. John tells us that the way we know God is through obedience.
Paul says he forms from the same lump vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: nolidad
Upvote 0