Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Al Touthentop]

Thats you r opinion and not His Inspired Sacred Word!

"For there is no partiality with God."

That's what his word says. Your weird doctrine that says he made people to sin and then punishes them for doing what he made them to do, that's what's opinion and goes against his word.

 

[Dave L]

Which you totally misunderstand. This is the equivalent of saying a gun is neutral from the factory. That it can be used in self defense or in the commission of a crime is the very reason we can't blame the gun manufacturer for how its used after it leaves the factory.

Paul was actually ridiculing the idea that God made people to sin when he ridiculed anyone who would ask God "why have you made me this way!?" Shall the one that it is formed ask its maker, 'Why have you made me this way?'

God didn't make people to sin. God made them, as explicitly told to Pharaoh, 'that they might see my power in you.' By claiming that God makes people to sin, you're concluding that God's display of power to the rest of the world is through sin, not obedience. Of course you've got it all backwards because Calvin had it backwards. And rather than use your own brain and logic to see the absurdity of such a doctrine, you just make yourself look sillier and sillier in the defense of slander against God.

Al, see if this makes sense to you. It is one of several passages about God causing sinners to sin more.

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

I know He’s not sinful and I know His judgement is righteous and just, which is how I know that Calvin’s theology cannot be correct. This is only the same argument every church established by the apostles made against Calvin’s theology.

You might not agree with Calvin on sin and grace, but it does not prove him wrong. I wouldn't say too much about God as Calvin describes him until you can solidly refute him. Or Luther and the rest of the Reformers who held the same Augustinianism.

 

[Dave L]

so people had free will in the old covenant but they don’t in the new covenant?

They have the same in both covenants, but the gospel is not law. You destroy grace and preach a false gospel making salvation depend on free will.

 

[Dave L]

So he would be imperfect if he held men accountable for what they do rather than what he created them to do? Sorry but the God you claim is 'perfect' is one who you say is able to be a hypocrite. Because he's God and 'sovereign' he's allowed to create men for the explicit purpose of sinning and then he gets to punish them for it. That's not perfection, that's human.

You base all of your complaints about God on your misunderstandings about him.

 

[Dave L]

If it is possible for God to demand obedience by people he has created to disobey, then he's a hypocrite by definition. And by definition, a god who acts like that is an idol. God does not create men to disobey in order to make himself look bigger. He never did that and never would do that.

Calvin erected an idol who didn't have to follow his own proscriptions to man. He gloried in God's alleged injustice rather than see that it is impossible for God to lie, the same God who said that each man is responsible for his own sin and who can become righteous by turning to God (repenting).

If you believe God is this way, how can you be saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is the repentance mentioned the repentance that leads to salvation? Scripture clearly states that repentance that leads to salvation is from the Lord.

Yes God grants repentance then it’s up to us to do it. People hold to reformed theology as if it came directly from the apostles themselves. John Calvin and Martin Luther we’re not apostles which is why their doctrines were completely brand new and refuted by every single church established by the apostles and even the earliest church writings. That fact right there alone should raise some alarm. I really don’t understand why so many people hold so tightly to these false doctrines. Calvin’s theology was refuted over 1300 years before he was even born by Iranaeus in 170AD which has been embraced by every single church established by the apostles. Do you really think that God’s plan to establish the church would completely fall to false teachings in the first century of its establishment and that for the next 1300 years no one was preaching the true gospel? People don’t stop and think about what it would actually take for that to happen. For all these hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of devoted servants of God spread out over such a vast area to all conspire together to preach a different gospel. People who suffered such hardships and persecution for their faith and they ALL agreed to preaching a false gospel with no evidence of any kind of resistance whatsoever? It’s preposterous. Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail over His church. If the reformers are right then the gates of hell prevailed less than 100 years after the church was established and continued to prevail for 1300 years. You said you believe in God’s word the way He wrote it. Do you believe Matthew 16:18?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You might not agree with Calvin on sin and grace, but it does not prove him wrong. I wouldn't say too much about God as Calvin describes him until you can solidly refute him. Or Luther and the rest of the Reformers who held the same Augustinianism.

I have solidly refuted them both several different ways. You need to think about the implications of their new doctrines in light of Matthew 16:18. You simply refuse to see what is clearly written in the scriptures because you believe the scriptures must be interpreted to be in line with reformed doctrines instead of letting the scriptures define the doctrines.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one in their flesh is capable of repentance unless God enables them! So no unless God acted on Jezebels heart, she could not repent. Her own nature would not allow her, if you wish to believe the Bible instead of opinion.

You never did address my post# 294. Do you accept these scriptures the way God write them?

 

[Hawkins]

Matthew 22:14

cho·sen
/ˈCHōzən/

1. adjective

adjective: chosen

1. having been selected as the best or most appropriate.

Guys, I could be completely wrong. I'm still a baby Christian. Let me know your thoughts.

In Jesus name,



boxman144

Chosen is a word of sovereignty. It is about a banquet of marriage. A marriage is someone chose you while you chose someone at the same time. Even when everyone has a chance to be, say, your husband but only the one you choose and he chooses you at the same can come to a marriage. In terms of your sovereignty then you can say that everyone had a chance but only your husband is chosen.

 

[renniks]

They have the same in both covenants, but the gospel is not law. You destroy grace and preach a false gospel making salvation depend on free will.

That's absurd. If there's no freedom there's no law that can be kept, and there's no way I can destroy anything unless God decrees that I destroy it, anyway. It's always amusing when Calvinists accuse one of doing what God decreed them to do according to ot their doctrine.

 

[Dave L]

That's absurd. If there's no freedom there's no law that can be kept, and there's no way I can destroy anything unless God decrees that I destroy it, anyway. It's always amusing when Calvinists accuse one of doing what God decreed them to do according to ot their doctrine.

You are missing the point. People have free will. That is why the law works. You can hold them responsible. But the gospel is not law, so free will does not apply. The gospel is grace and saves apart from the will. After God saves the will (the person) it is free to obey God in love. But not before he saves them. The natural man cannot discern Christ in truth and always chooses an idol our depraved will finds acceptable.

 

[Dave L]

I have solidly refuted them both several different ways. You need to think about the implications of their new doctrines in light of Matthew 16:18. You simply refuse to see what is clearly written in the scriptures because you believe the scriptures must be interpreted to be in line with reformed doctrines instead of letting the scriptures define the doctrines.

You agree with the Catholics and have not refuted him or Luther or any others in that cause.

 

[renniks]

You are missing the point. People have free will. That is why the law works. You can hold them responsible. But the gospel is not law, so free will does not apply. The gospel is grace and saves apart from the will. After God saves the will (the person) it is free to obey God in love. But not before he saves them. The natural man cannot discern Christ in truth and always chooses an idol our depraved will finds acceptable.

Nope, you don't understand your own theology. God decreeing everything means there's no such thing as free will.

 

[Dave L]

Nope, you don't understand your own theology. God decreeing everything means there's no such thing as free will.

You do not understand free will and how it works. God predestined Adam to sin, but Adam wanted and freely chose to sin and became liable to punishment. Give it some time, you might find it's true.

 

[renniks]

You do not understand free will and how it works. God predestined Adam to sin, but Adam wanted and freely chose to sin and became liable to punishment. Give it some time, you might find it's true.

I've given it enough time... And where does it say that God predestined Adam to sin?

What you propose is only an illusion of freedom.

 

[Dave L]

I've given it enough time... And where does it say that God predestined Adam to sin?

What you propose is only an illusion of freedom.

Where does it say he did not?

 

[renniks]

Lol, the burden is on you to prove the fall of man was predestined by God, since the Bible says no such thing.
You are asking me to prove something didn't happen when there is no evidence that it did...kinda silly, don't you think?

Where does it say he did not?

 

[Dave L]

Lol, the burden is on you to prove the fall of man was predestined by God, since the Bible says no such thing.
You are asking me to prove something didn't happen when there is no evidence that it did...kinda silly, don't you think?

God created all just as he planned. Are you saying he failed?

 

[renniks]

God created all just as he planned. Are you saying he failed?

Nope. And that is not even on the table. The question is where are we told God predestined the fall of man?

God didn't fail because he knew what would be required of him to offer salvation to all.
That doesn't mean he had to predestine sin. Sin is merely our default mode of behavior. If we don't allow God to guide us continuously, it's the natural result.
It's like saying I planned my children's disobedience because I had a plan to discipline them if it happened.