Does man have a freewill ?

[Jerry N.]

I haven’t had much trouble understanding free will since I was a child. My father let me run pretty free, but he always explained the consequences. There was a limited set of rules I was expected to obey, and the consequences of breaking those rules were well defined. For example, not being home at 6:00pm for supper meant I didn’t eat until breakfast. Other “suggestions” were for my own protection, and my breaking those rules naturally resulted in broken bones and injuries that the laws of physics dictated rather than my father. The key point was I could do whatever I wanted, but my love for my father was much stronger than the fear of consequences in making choices. I still did many stupid things, but children are mostly stupid by design.

 

[RDKirk]

But will is not limited to realistic options. We can will or want things that are not in our power. For example a prisoner may will to be free.

That's not what "free will" means, though. "Free will" and "desire" are philosophically (and we're in the philosophical realm here) different things. What you cannot physically manifest is not within your free will.

The fact that a prisoner cannot will himself to be free does mean he does not have free will.

 

[trophy33]

That's not what "free will" means, though. "Free will" and "desire" are philosophically (and we're in the philosophical realm here) different things. What you cannot physically manifest is not within your free will.

The fact that a prisoner cannot will himself to be free does mean he does not have free will.

I am not sure if we are in agreement or not.

A prisoner can will himself to be free. He just cannot do it because circumstances are stronger than his power to do his will. But his will is free, it is not limited by given options.

People willed to fly and could not do it until they invented it. But the will was there the whole time.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, we all can quote a scripture.

But that's my point, you using a scripture to support what you most likely have been told, this is what it is.
But I suggest you do the work, a narrative exegesis of that passage without reading your a presupposed view into it. You will arrive at a more informed conclusion.

It should be quoted if it correlates with the Truth. Jesus quoted it, Paul quoted it, Peter quoted it and on an on. All proof texting is evil, it has positive aspects as well. And you remember all this stuff you talking now the next time you quote one scripture to make a point.

 

[RDKirk]

I am not sure if we are in agreement or not.

A prisoner can will himself to be free. He just cannot do it because circumstances are stronger than his power to do his will. But his will is free, it is not limited by given options.

People willed to fly and could not do it until they invented it. But the will was there the whole time.

Yes, the will may be free in its scope of desire. But if it cannot ever translate into action, we must ask: is it a freedom that matters?

If freedom of will means simply the ability to want something, regardless of whether it can be achieved, then this is a very minimal definition of free will. Most philosophers argue that free will must include the ability to make meaningful choices among real options—not just wish for something impossible. To the degree that moral agents cannot manifest their wills, their wills are determined by outside forces, such as even lack of knowledge.

The only philosophers still talking about "free will" are Christians. Non-theistic philosophers have settled on some degree of determinism in which even impossible desires are to some extent determined by outside factors.

 

[Clare73]

Please help me understand. Are you arguing that God gives a sign that He is... But then judges humanity because they cannot respond to it because He doesnt regenerate them?

Man is not born in a spiritually neutral state.
We are all born spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1), by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), unable to make spiritual responses, judged and condemned already (Jn 3:18).
"Whoever believes in the Son of Man is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

Only those who believe in the Son have their condemnation removed.

That being said, we must be spiritually reborn by the sovereign will (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), depending on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so (Jn 3:6-8), in order to make the spiritual choice to believe.

If you believe, it is because the Holy Spirit has regenerated you, from spiritual death into eternal life in the new birth, giving you to believe.

God always initiates, we respond or fail to respond.I'd venture to say all of creation is Him initiating. Psalms 19:1-4.

God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble...
He oposes those who refuse what He has revealed of Himself. All creation has been given an opportunity to respond to Him by what He has revealed, be it general or special revelation.

Keeping in mind that all mankind
is born (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1),
by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3), and
must be reborn into eternal life by his Holy Spirit in order to become children of God (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Clare73]

Geez-the constants I'm referring to as being ignored by you was Scripture already listed.

Please present Scriptures in a coherent demonstration of your assertions (post #114).

 

[Clare73]

No, you study it. You clearly don't understand it.

Okay, so we can't prove anything then? Is that what you're trying to say? Unless something is explicitly stated, it can't be true?

Good. . .you got the assertion of your argument which I was mirroring back to you; i.e., "unless something is explicitly stated, it can't be true."

See post #15 for your real issue here, as well as in your posts #127 and #128.

 

[fhansen]

Please present Scriptures in a coherent demonstration of your assertions (post #114).

Post #81 and #110

 

[Clare73]

Post #81 and #110

Strawmen. . .rebuttals not addressed.

 

[fhansen]

Strawmen. . .rebuttals not addressed.

Sure they were. The verses cited there were some of the "constants" I referred to-that you ignored.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What you mean how ? How was Adam accountable to the Law God gave him ?

Stop playing games. Be specific. What exactly do you think all people are accountable to God for in terms of what all people are capable of doing and why does that not include repentance and faith?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes mans heart by nature is so wicked/evil its not curable, God must give a new heart

Nowhere does scripture teach that. If that was the case then why did Jesus say "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"?

Matthew 19:13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Calvinism teaches that all people are purely evil and totally depraved from birth, but if that was the case Jesus would not have said "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these". The fact of the matter is that people "BECAME vain in their imaginations" and "BECAME fools" who do not glorify God and are not thankful to Him (Romans 1:21-22) while having no excuse for that. They are not born that way by nature. Having a tendency to sin does not equate to being totally depraved with no ability to repent and believe. If that was the case then scripture would not say that no one has any excuse for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him.

 

[Paleouss]

1. All would agree that God is not responsible, as in culpable, for mankind's sin. So God is free from the culpability of our guilt.
2. All would agree that mankind is morally accountable for his own actions, i.e., his own sin. So man is free from any accusations of coercion by God.
3. If God is not culpable and mankind is not coerced, then by what mechanism is each individual person culpable?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good. . .you got the assertion of your argument that I was mirroring back to you.

Why do you Calvinists always play games like this? Are you saying you believe that unless something is explicitly stated, it can't be true? Nothing can ever be implied in scripture?

See post #15 for your real issue here,

Stop saying this to me. Your post #15 does not identify any issue with what I believe. What are you even talking about? Are you unable to be specific about anything?

as well as in your posts #127 and #128.

Be specific. Don't make me guess as to what you might be talking about.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Please present Scriptures in a coherent demonstration of your assertions (post #114).

This is rich coming from you. Your posts are always vague and not coherent at all, but you demand someone else to present scriptures in a coherent demonstration of their assertions? How about you take your own advice?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Man is not born in a spiritually neutral state.
We are all born spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1), by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),

Wrong. In that case, all babies would be condemned to hell immediately upon being born. That is complete nonsense. Paul taught that he was not dead in sins until he became aware of what sin was.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You do not take all of scripture into consideration to form your doctrine and there is no excuse for that. Cherry picking scripture the way you and all Calvinists do is unacceptable. What Ephesians 2 is actually saying is that everyone who lives long

unable to make spiritual responses, judged and condemned already (Jn 3:18).
"Whoever believes in the Son of Man is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

Only those who believe in the Son have their condemnation removed.

Right, but how does this support your doctrine? God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. In your view, Jesus only died for some and not for all, but that is not what scripture teaches. He sacrificed Himself so that all people would have the opportunity to have everlasting life.

 

[Clare73]

Wrong. In that case, all babies would be condemned to hell immediately upon being born. That is complete nonsense. Paul taught that he was not dead in sins until he became aware of what sin was.

Back to post #15 again.

 

[Brightfame52]

Stop playing games. Be specific. What exactly do you think all people are accountable to God for in terms of what all people are capable of doing and why does that not include repentance and faith?

What you mean how ? How was Adam accountable to the Law God gave him ?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Spiritual Jew

Nowhere does scripture teach that. If that was the case then why did Jesus say "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"?

jeremiah last I checked is scripture Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Man needs a new heart, the heart contains the will, so he needs a new will, for naturally its incurably wicked. No sense talking about anything else if you reject that