Does man have a freewill ?

[Rose_bud]

@Rose_bud



No Im sure you missing the point of what that scripture says that I found in Daniel, it gives information about God and His Will

No you really are. Nebechadnezzar humiliation is for a reason... pride... yes God is Sovereign and God will give to whom He wills, but he opposes the proud, giving grace to the humble... don't be proud is the simple meaning of this chapter.

But it also has an ironic parallel or foreshadowing. The book was originally written to a Jewish audience.. God will give His kingdom to whom He wills...it was taken from them (proud Jews) and comes to us (Gentiles) when we humble ourselves before Him.

 

[fhansen]

More rabbit trail

Why not just be honest enough to say you had no solid answer-rather than continously regurgitating the same nonsense?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew



Yeah, he didnt know he was predestined to do it, yet he did the evil willingly. Like pharoah, he didnt know God hardened his heart not to obey his command, yet he did it willingly. Scripture even said he hardened his own heart, but that was God hardening his heart, so He could justly destroy

You think God predestines people to do evil? That's nonsense. You clearly don't know God at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

All men are accountable to Gods law and not one of us can keep it, if you have one lustful thought in your heart, you guilty of breaking the Law of God, you must keep it pure and perfect from the womb to the grave or you going to hell, and God designed it like that

How are we accountable to His law then? What does that even mean if that is referring to keeping it perfectly? He keeps us accountable to do something no one can do? You make no sense.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew



Which is a symptom of being dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, the disease is not curable. The human heart in its best condition is described Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That word desperately is a word that means:
anash:

desperately wicked, incurable, sick, woeful
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy -- desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful. This includes man at his religiously best, moral best

It's not incurable or else Jesus would not call sinners to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. And God does command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). He would not do that if not all people everywhere could repent. Total depravity is a false teaching and makes a mockery of God's commands and His expectations and requirements for people.

Thats why God when He saves a person He gives them a new heart Ezk 36 26

We need a new heart in order to obey God and follow Christ, but nowhere does it say we need a new heart in order to recognize our lost condition and need to put our faith in Christ for salvation instead of in ourselves or anyone or anything else.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Study Jn 3:3-8.

No, you study it. You clearly don't understand it.

False hermeneutic. . .

By that rule, also nowhere did Jesus say that a man is responsible to repent and believe before being regenerated.
Nor did he say, "I am God."

Okay, so we can't prove anything then? Is that what you're trying to say? Unless something is explicitly stated, it can't be true?

However, Jesus did say that no one can even see the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, unless he is regenerated (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:6-8).

Yes, but how does that equate to someone not being able to repent of their sins and believe in Christ unless they are regenerated? That's quite a stretch you're making there.

No. . ."receiving the Holy Spirit," as reported in the NT, is not about the new birth, it is about a special filling after the sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

That was a special filling of the born again with the Holy Spirit for their mission, it was not rebirth.

I disagree. Nowhere does it teach that the disciples were born again before they received the Holy Spirit. It figures you would say that since it would contradict your doctrine.

Acts 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.

What reason do you have to think that regeneration would occur at some other time than when someone receives the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit does the regenerating, right? When else would the Holy Spirit do that except when someone receives Him into their heart? I just completely disagree with you about this.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Keeping in mind that we are (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).
Spiritually dead men cannot make spiritual responses. . .they must be born again of the Holy Spirit to even be able to see anything spiritual (Jn 3:3-5).

Nowhere does scripture teach this. You do not understand what it means to be dead in sins. It does not mean that someone cannot make spiritual responses as you falsely claim. It simply means that a person is separated from a relationship with God because of their sin. But, Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick (Mark 2:16-17) and are in need of a physician. Are sick people unable to respond to their need to be healed? Of course not. So, your understanding of things is terribly flawed. Jesus expected spiritually sick, unregenerated sinners to repent (Mark 2:16-17) and never said that they had to be regenerated first before they could repent.

"The man without the Spirit (by the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them." (1 Co 2:14)

You are once again taking scripture out of context. Did you even look at the context of this verse?

1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”—the things God has prepared for those who love him—10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Paul was not talking about the simple gospel message or basic spiritual things here. Calvinists badly misinterpret 1 Corinthians 2:14 and take it completely out of context. He was talking about "the deep things of God" there. The natural man or the person without the Spirit cannot accept or understand the deep things of God. Look at what Paul then said to immature Christian believers in the church in Corinth right after that.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

These immature Christians, who Paul called "infants in Christ" (babes in Christ - KJV) were still acting worldly (still carnal - KJV). They were not acting like "people who live by the Spirit" just like the "person without the Spirit" he was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14. So, he said he could only give them milk and not solid food. The person without the Spirit, and even immature Christians who are not consistently walking in the Spirit like these "infants in Christ" that Paul was rebuking, are not able to understand "the deep things of God". But, they can understand the gospel. They were able to repent and believe in Christ without having to first understand the deep things of God. These "infants in Christ" clearly understood the gospel and they accepted it and that's why they are considered to be "in Christ". But, they could not understand the deep things of God, the solid food, because of still thinking in a worldly way instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. So, applying 1 Corinthians 2:14 to being born again as if Paul was talking about needing to be born again in order to even understand the gospel message and the need to repent and believe is a case of taking that verse completely out of context.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Bible 101:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

Nonsense 101. Copout 101. You are trying to explain away your false doctrine with a passage like this. This is not an acceptable response to what I said. That verse does not say that God can just treat people in a way that makes no sense whatsoever and contradicts His character. Scripture says "God is love" (1 John 4:8). To think that He punishes people for doing things that they can't help but doing is not something a God who is love would do.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Methinks you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Unless total depravity or total inability was the very reason "they were not willing."

LOL. Why did He weep over them because of what was going to happen to them and their city (Luke 19:41-44) and why was He angry with them (Matthew 23) if they were not able to do anything else and were not able to be willing to do otherwise? That's complete nonsense. He would not be angry at them and sad for their fate (their city and many of them were destroyed in 70 AD) if He thought that they were not willing because they could not help but to not be willing. That's complete nonsense. No, He was angry at them and sad for their fate because they did not do what He expected them to do and what they were capable of doing.

I suppose now you will try to again cover up how nonsensical your beliefs are and how much your beliefs contradict God's character by referring to Isaiah 55:8-9.

See post #15 for you real issue here.

You are the one with the issue and I'm revealing that. It's your free will choice to either accept or reject what I am revealing to you about your false doctrine. I've already refuted your post #15 multiple times, so why should I do it yet again?

 

[bling]

Thats not true with God, God can and does control our thoughts, you underestimate the power of God

Just because God can and does sometimes does not mean God does it all the time. Did God control all the thoughts of Adam and Eve?

 

[Brightfame52]

Folks by nature our will isnt free from the will of the devil, 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Look what Paul writes of every natural unregenerate person: Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word desires is the same word will, our will conforms to the devils will by nature, we walk according to his will Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That word according is a strong word meaning

1. down from, through out
2. according to, toward, along, in agreement with or corresponding with !

As natural men our will is a slave to the devil and our sinful nature. Our nature is corrupt and our will is servant to our deceitful lusts Eph 4:22

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; By nature our will isn't spiritually free. 3

 

[Brightfame52]

No you really are. Nebechadnezzar humiliation is for a reason... pride... yes God is Sovereign and God will give to whom He wills, but he opposes the proud, giving grace to the humble... don't be proud is the simple meaning of this chapter.

But it also has an ironic parallel or foreshadowing. The book was originally written to a Jewish audience.. God will give His kingdom to whom He wills...it was taken from them (proud Jews) and comes to us (Gentiles) when we humble ourselves before Him.

No you are really missing the point, my point isnt about Neb the king, its about God

 

[Brightfame52]

Why not just be honest enough to say you had no solid answer-rather than continously regurgitating the same nonsense?

More rabbit trail

 

[Brightfame52]

You think God predestines people to do evil? That's nonsense. You clearly don't know God at all.

I think just what I posted and you read

 

[Brightfame52]

How are we accountable to His law then? What does that even mean if that is referring to keeping it perfectly? He keeps us accountable to do something no one can do? You make no sense.

What you mean how ? How was Adam accountable to the Law God gave him ?

 

[Brightfame52]

It's not incurable or else Jesus would not call sinners to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. And God does command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). He would not do that if not all people everywhere could repent. Total depravity is a false teaching and makes a mockery of God's commands and His expectations and requirements for people.


We need a new heart in order to obey God and follow Christ, but nowhere does it say we need a new heart in order to recognize our lost condition and need to put our faith in Christ for salvation instead of in ourselves or anyone or anything else.

Yes mans heart by nature is so wicked/evil its not curable, God must give a new heart

 

[Brightfame52]

Just because God can and does sometimes does not mean God does it all the time. Did God control all the thoughts of Adam and Eve?

Yes it does mean man is always under the control of God, because God is always God at all times. The steps of a man are ordered by the lord, at all times Jer 10:23

O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

What you think, God takes a break from being God so you can be your own god. No it dont work like that

 

[Rose_bud]

No you are really missing the point, my point isnt about Neb the king, its about God

You started off your OP with this scripture in Daniel stating "without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose!"
With the implication that man doesn' t have free will...

I'm pointing out that you are proof texting, using scripture to support a preconceived notion.

 

[Brightfame52]

You started off your OP with this scripture in Daniel stating "without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose!"
With the implication that man doesn' t have free will...

I'm pointing out that you are proof texting, using scripture to support a preconceived notion.

I know what i started with, Im talking about Gods will, mans will isnt free from the control of God and His will, not ever. The narrative in Dan 4 provides a scripture for that,

 

[Rose_bud]

I know what i started with, Im talking about Gods will, mans will isnt free from the control of God and His will, not ever. The narrative in Dan 4 provides a scripture for that,

Yes, we all can quote a scripture.

But that's my point, you using a scripture to support what you most likely have been told, this is what it is.
But I suggest you do the work, a narrative exegesis of that passage without reading your a presupposed view into it. You will arrive at a more informed conclusion.

 

[bling]

Yes it does mean man is always under the control of God, because God is always God at all times. The steps of a man are ordered by the lord, at all times Jer 10:23

O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

What you think, God takes a break from being God so you can be your own god. No it dont work like that

You quoted it: "A man's heart deviseth his way" so it is not God doing it. The fact God might have man go a different way, does not mean man did not make a free will choice in the way he wanted to go.
God can certainly direct man's steps, but what way doe man wants to go can get him in trouble.