does baptism have a expiration date?

[ViaCrucis]

Acts 10:13-14 is very clear that we are saved because we call on the name of the Lord, and we can only call on Him if we believe (have faith) in Him, and we can only believe in Him if we have heard the Gospel of Him.

Were you thinking Romans 10:13-14 but mistakenly wrote Acts?

Because Romans 10 states the Gospel, the word of Christ, gives faith (Romans 10:17). We aren't saved because of something we do, we are saved because of God's grace, God's grace through the Word (that is, through the Gospel) to convert us and give us faith. For without faith we cannot call on the Lord, that's exactly Paul's point when he says "How can they call on Him whom they have not believed? And how will they believe on Him whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14-15).

It is by the power and grace of God, through the Gospel, that we receive faith.

Faith is not a gift from God. The things in which we have faith (Jesus, the Gospel, etc.) are the gifts from God. Faith is our response to what God has done, and it includes our understanding of what He did and the actions inspired by that understanding. If you do not understand your need for a savior, then there is no desire in yourself to find a savior. If there is no understanding of the amazing gift God gave us in His Son, then there is no feeling of a need for faith.

So you believe faith to be a human work?
Sorry, I simply do not believe in the saving power of human will, work, or reason. I believe that we are saved by grace alone, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), "It is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". Faith comes from outside of ourselves, as a gift.

I reject, in its entirety, the idea that anything we could do could save us.

What is childlike faith? It is trust in the strength, authority, and generosity of our Lord. Just as a child learns that his parents will provide for and protect it very early on in its life, and then has faith, based on that experience, in the continued love and provision, so we learn to trust in God by learning of His provision for His people throughout history. But without that understanding there is not trust.

John 7:39 - "But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

Why does an infant cry out for its mother?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Were you thinking Romans 10:13-14 but mistakenly wrote Acts?

Yes, thank you.

Because Romans 10 states the Gospel, the word of Christ, gives faith (Romans 10:17).

No, the Gospel does not "give" faith. It is the thing from which we learn about Jesus so that we can exhibit faith in Jesus. If we don't know about Him, and know what He did for us we cannot have faith in Him.

We aren't saved because of something we do, we are saved because of God's grace, God's grace through the Word (that is, through the Gospel) to convert us and give us faith.

Wrong. We are saved by His blood which is a gift to us (by grace). But we receive that gift because of/through our faith in Him (through faith).

For without faith we cannot call on the Lord, that's exactly Paul's point when he says "How can they call on Him whom they have not believed? And how will they believe on Him whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14-15).

It is by the power and grace of God, through the Gospel, that we receive faith.

It is by the power and grace of God that we receive the Gospel through understanding of which we exhibit faith. Faith is not God's gift to us. Faith is our response to Him because of His gift of love and offering of salvation to us.

So you believe faith to be a human work?

James (the first of the NT books to be written, btw), says that faith without action is dead, it is meaningless, it is ineffective, it is without power. Action is the soul, the thing that gives life, to faith. Action completes faith. If you say you have faith but do not act on that faith, then you don't really have faith. If you "believe" that the chair will hold you but don't put your butt in the chair and your weight on it, then you don't really believe; you have no faith. That is what Jesus was telling the Apostles when they woke him in the storm. They had little faith because they came to wake the Master of the storm. But greater faith would have been to trust that the storm could not sink the ship in which the Master lay, and so continue to sail the ship as if the storm had no power over them.

Sorry, I simply do not believe in the saving power of human will, work, or reason. I believe that we are saved by grace alone, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), "It is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". Faith comes from outside of ourselves, as a gift.

Faith is not the object to which "the gift" points. Salvation is the gift of grace, and it is received through our faith. We certainly are saved by grace, but that grace comes to us THROUGH faith. And faith cannot be passive, it cannot be a mental only concept, for without action it is incomplete, imperfect, dead.

I reject, in its entirety, the idea that anything we could do could save us.

So do I. But I do not reject the idea that God has given us things that we must do that lead to Him giving us salvation instead of condemnation. Rom 10:9-10 are very clear that a verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN us receiving salvation. It does not FLOW OUT OF having received salvation. This is clearly a physical action, done in public (Matt 10:32, Luke 12:8) that RESULTS IN salvation. If you deny that, then you deny God's direct command through His Apostle.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, thank you.

No, the Gospel does not "give" faith. It is the thing from which we learn about Jesus so that we can exhibit faith in Jesus. If we don't know about Him, and know what He did for us we cannot have faith in Him.

So you do not believe the Gospel is the power of God? You do not believe that this Word of God is living and active? The Gospel is just a story?

Wrong. We are saved by His blood which is a gift to us (by grace). But we receive that gift because of/through our faith in Him (through faith).

So we earn this gift by our effort of faith? That's not much of a gift if it's something we have to earn through our own efforts.

It is by the power and grace of God that we receive the Gospel through understanding of which we exhibit faith. Faith is not God's gift to us. Faith is our response to Him because of His gift of love and offering of salvation to us.

So we are saved by our power of reason as well as our our own effort to believe? Why are you trying to rob God of His glory?

James (the first of the NT books to be written, btw), says that faith without action is dead, it is meaningless, it is ineffective, it is without power. Action is the soul, the thing that gives life, to faith. Action completes faith. If you say you have faith but do not act on that faith, then you don't really have faith. If you "believe" that the chair will hold you but don't put your butt in the chair and your weight on it, then you don't really believe; you have no faith. That is what Jesus was telling the Apostles when they woke him in the storm. They had little faith because they came to wake the Master of the storm. But greater faith would have been to trust that the storm could not sink the ship in which the Master lay, and so continue to sail the ship as if the storm had no power over them.

If I believed that James taught that we are saved by our works then I'd convert to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy; because otherwise I'd be living in open rebellion against God.

If the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone is false, which you are telling me it is, then I am living in open and unrepentant sin by being a Protestant.

And yes, you are saying that the doctrine of Justiciation by grace alone through faith alone is false. Because the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone means that faith is a gift, apart from ourselves. That's what the doctrine has always been and continues to be.

Faith is not the object to which "the gift" points. Salvation is the gift of grace, and it is received through our faith. We certainly are saved by grace, but that grace comes to us THROUGH faith. And faith cannot be passive, it cannot be a mental only concept, for without action it is incomplete, imperfect, dead.

The gift is everything, "For by grace you have been saved through faith"--that's the gift, and it is not of ourselves. That is why it is not by works, so that no one may boast.

Do you not understand what "no one may boast" means? It's not merely that someone refrains from boasting, it means that there isn't even the possibility to boast.

The man left for dead on the side of the road, beaten by highwaymen in the Parable of the Good Samaritan; what work did he contribute to his salvation in the Parable?

You can try to argue "faith isn't a work" all you want, but when you ascribe faith to your own power, you make it a work. Otherwise you are like a vegetarian saying "I don't eat meat" but then eats a pork sandwich and claims "pork isn't meat".

So do I. But I do not reject the idea that God has given us things that we must do that lead to Him giving us salvation instead of condemnation. Rom 10:9-10 are very clear that a verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN us receiving salvation. It does not FLOW OUT OF having received salvation. This is clearly a physical action, done in public (Matt 10:32, Luke 12:8) that RESULTS IN salvation. If you deny that, then you deny God's direct command through His Apostle.

Again, you attribute salvation to your own work and power.

We are saved by believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth because of the FAITH by which we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth. For, the Apostle also says, "No one can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" Without the Spirit, who is only present with faith (for it is impossible to separate the Holy Spirit and faith, though you may wish to do so). Without faith, without the Holy Spirit alive in us, we cannot call upon Christ, we cannot confess Christ, we cannot believe in Christ. All of these come from God, as a gift. So that I can boast in nothing, but instead God receives ALL the glory.

"Therefore where is our boasting? It is excluded."
"Therefore let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Soli Deo Gloria.
Soli Deo Gloria Omnes.

-CrytoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

If I believed that James taught that we are saved by our works then I'd convert to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy; because otherwise I'd be living in open rebellion against God.

If the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone is false, which you are telling me it is, then I am living in open and unrepentant sin by being a Protestant.

Surely not. The doctrine of Sola Fide is not sufficiently different from Orthodox soteriology or traditional Roman Catholic soteriology in its original form, and is something which I believe is not an impediment to ecumenical reunification since the primary point is that Lutherans believe in salvation by the grace of the Holy Spirit, like the Orthodox, and reject Pelagianism, like the Orthodox. With the Eastern Orthodox there is some conflict with the fifth ecumenical counciil; the Oriental Orthodox did not sign this although they are also not monergist, but on the other hand, they share with Lutheranism an anti-Nestorian zeal and a determination to perceive the Incarnation with the help of communicatio idiomatum, and also the Ethiopian Church did inspire Martin Luther to form all of this.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Surely not. The doctrine of Sola Fide is not sufficiently different from Orthodox soteriology or traditional Roman Catholic soteriology in its original form, and is something which I believe is not an impediment to ecumenical reunification since the primary point is that Lutherans believe in salvation by the grace of the Holy Spirit, like the Orthodox, and reject Pelagianism, like the Orthodox. With the Eastern Orthodox there is some conflict with the fifth ecumenical counciil; the Oriental Orthodox did not sign this although they are also not monergist, but on the other hand, they share with Lutheranism an anti-Nestorian zeal and a determination to perceive the Incarnation with the help of communicatio idiomatum, and also the Ethiopian Church did inspire Martin Luther to form all of this.

Essentially this:

As a Lutheran I understand that the justification St. James speaks about in his epistle is a different justification than what St. Paul talks about in his epistles. For St. James the central issue is our righteousness before others (Iustitia Coram Mundus/Hominibus, Righteousness before the world/human beings). Whereas St. Paul is talking about Iustitia Coram Deo, Righteousness before God. That is to say, what makes us just in relation to God (Coram Deo) vs what makes us just in relation to our neighbors (Coram Mundus/Hominibus).

I believe this view does contradict the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives; in Catholicism righteousness is not imputed but infused; and this infused righteousness means a life of righteous action before both God and neighbor. Thus justification is a synergistic activity of human beings cooperating with God's grace; and thus our active righteousness through both faith and good works corresponds to our righteousness before God.

I know that the Western ways of talking about Justification are meaningfully different than how the East talks about these things.

But I do not think that I could go into either a Catholic or Orthodox church, and state my belief in what the Lutheran Confessions say about how a person is made right with God, and be welcomed. I wish that could be the case, but it is not the case.

There are points of agreement between all of our churches, and thanks be to God. But there are irreconciable differences, again, I wish it were not the case, but it is.

Luther himself said that were the Pope to openly affirm the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone, he'd kiss the Pope's ring in submission; that is to say. If one knows Luther's feelings about the papacy, especially in his later life and writings, this is no small thing to have said. But it is also why he said that he would rather drink blood with the Pope than mere wine with [the Swiss] in the aftermath of the meeting with Zwingli at Marburg.

If the Confessional teaching on Justification is in error, then I would have to freely confess that I have no business being outside of communion with either Rome, or Constantinople, or even Alexandria or Antioch. Though I must also admit that, were I not a Lutheran, I'd be Orthodox rather than Roman Catholic, but that's a very different conversation than the one going on here.

That is what I mean. I would be living in sin and rebellion against God and His Church if the central thesis of the Evangelical Reformation is, in fact, false teaching. Indeed, I would be a schismatic and a heretic.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

So you do not believe the Gospel is the power of God? You do not believe that this Word of God is living and active? The Gospel is just a story?

That is not what I said at all. What does Gospel mean? It means "good news". What is it the good news of? It is the good news that God sent Jesus to take our punishment and restore our relationship with the Father, thus our salvation. The Gospel is living and active because it is God's direct words to us. It is not dead any more than He is dead. It is powerful because it carries His authority, and gives us His instruction. It is not just "a" story; it is "the" story.

So we earn this gift by our effort of faith? That's not much of a gift if it's something we have to earn through our own efforts.

No, we do not "earn" the gift, any more than the widow earned life during the famine when the prophet told her to give him her last bite and God would cause the oil and flour to last; any more than Naaman earned cleansing when he dipped in Jordan; any more than Israel earned Jericho by marching around it; any more than any of the other depictions of people offered blessing in the OT and the NT earned the blessing by obeying God's command that He said would result in their receiving that blessing.

So we are saved by our power of reason as well as our our own effort to believe? Why are you trying to rob God of His glory?

Again, no! We are saved by God's gift of Jesus. We receive that gift when we do what He says leads to us receiving that gift. That does not "rob God" of any glory. It brings more glory to Him when we submit to His authority and obey His command trusting that He will keep His promises.

If I believed that James taught that we are saved by our works then I'd convert to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy; because otherwise I'd be living in open rebellion against God.

The catholic religion is not a Christian religion; it is papist. I don't really know what you mean by "orthodoxy", but if it is a derivative of catholicism then it also is not a Christian religion. So I would not recommend either. But you can accept that James taught that our salvation is received when we are obedient to God, not because we earn His grace, but because He said that is what is required for us to receive the benefit of the gift He has already given.

If the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone is false, which you are telling me it is, then I am living in open and unrepentant sin by being a Protestant.

The only problem with what you believe is that you believe faith to be a mental only concept. It is not. Faith requires action for it to be alive. James says clearly that we are not justified by faith alone, but by the actions that faith engenders; the actions that God commanded saying that they lead to receiving His gift. What does Acts 3:19 says? Repent so that you can be forgiven (saved). What does Rom 10:9-10 say? Believe (have faith) and verbally confess Jesus as Lord so that you can receive salvation. What does Acts 2:38 say? Repent and be baptized so that you can receive forgiveness of sin (salvation). None of these actions "earn" salvation. They demonstrate our surrender to God's will rather than our own.

And yes, you are saying that the doctrine of Justiciation by grace alone through faith alone is false. Because the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone means that faith is a gift, apart from ourselves. That's what the doctrine has always been and continues to be.

Then that doctrine, as you understand it, is false. Faith is not the gift that Eph 2:8-9 is talking about. The gift is salvation.

The gift is everything, "For by grace you have been saved through faith"--that's the gift, and it is not of ourselves. That is why it is not by works, so that no one may boast.

"Saved" is the gift. Grace is just a word that means gift, and faith is how that gift is received.

Do you not understand what "no one may boast" means? It's not merely that someone refrains from boasting, it means that there isn't even the possibility to boast.

Of course no one can boast about salvation. It is an impossible task for a man. It is like jumping over the Grand Canyon at its widest spot. But Jesus is like (and this is just an analogy) the man on the tightwire walking back and forth over that gulf with a wheelbarrow. He offers you the gift of being transported over that gulf in His wheelbarrow, but you have to trust Him enough to get in the wheelbarrow. He won't pick you up and put you in the wheelbarrow. You must climb in on your own; that is faith. But you won't climb in if you don't trust (have faith in) Him.

The man left for dead on the side of the road, beaten by highwaymen in the Parable of the Good Samaritan; what work did he contribute to his salvation in the Parable?

None at all. But that parable is not about the beaten man. It is about the Priest, the Levite, and the Samaritan.

You can try to argue "faith isn't a work" all you want, but when you ascribe faith to your own power, you make it a work. Otherwise you are like a vegetarian saying "I don't eat meat" but then eats a pork sandwich and claims "pork isn't meat".

Faith is not a work of the Law. There is no verse in all of the Bible that says that there is nothing you have to do to receive salvation. There cannot be, because they would contradict the verses that say there are physical actions we must do to receive salvation (like Rom 10:9-10), and we know that there are no contradictions in Scripture. Faith requires action or it is not real, alive, effective, beneficial.

Again, you attribute salvation to your own work and power.

We are saved by believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth because of the FAITH by which we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth. For, the Apostle also says, "No one can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" Without the Spirit, who is only present with faith (for it is impossible to separate the Holy Spirit and faith, though you may wish to do so). Without faith, without the Holy Spirit alive in us, we cannot call upon Christ, we cannot confess Christ, we cannot believe in Christ. All of these come from God, as a gift. So that I can boast in nothing, but instead God receives ALL the glory.

Ahh, so you believe that we must be saved before we can be saved. That makes a lot of sense.

No, the Holy Spirit can be active in us long before He removes our sins. Just because He is working on us does not mean that He has moved into our heart (indwelling us) and forgiven our sins. The Holy Spirit is active in the Word of God. He is working on everyone who reads the Word or hears it preached. That doesn't mean that everyone who hears or reads it will be saved, but that He is working in them to help them understand and accept the truth. But there is also Satan and his minions working against everyone who hears and reads the Word. So the one who hears/reads and accepts that Jesus is the Lord, who confesses Jesus does so through the influence of the Holy Spirit. That confession alone does not bring one to salvation, but it is one step that is required to reach the destination of salvation. The step that does put you into salvation is baptism, as Scripture states in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us, and unites us with Jesus' resurrection.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is not what I said at all. What does Gospel mean? It means "good news". What is it the good news of? It is the good news that God sent Jesus to take our punishment and restore our relationship with the Father, thus our salvation. The Gospel is living and active because it is God's direct words to us. It is not dead any more than He is dead. It is powerful because it carries His authority, and gives us His instruction. It is not just "a" story; it is "the" story.

Does the Gospel do anything?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Does the Gospel do anything?

What does any "good news" do? It encourages. It guides. It teaches. It brings hope. It comforts.

The Gospel is nothing more or less than the good news about what Jesus did for us. The gospel is not the power behind salvation, Jesus is. The Gospel is simply the good news about the power that Jesus brings to give us salvation. Yes, the Gospel is the power of God for salvation, because it gives us knowledge about who and what Jesus is and what He did for us. The Word of God is living, active, and sharper than any two edge sword, but the Gospel is just part of the Word of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What does any "good news" do? It encourages. It guides. It teaches. It brings hope. It comforts.

The Gospel is nothing more or less than the good news about what Jesus did for us. The gospel is not the power behind salvation, Jesus is. The Gospel is simply the good news about the power that Jesus brings to give us salvation. Yes, the Gospel is the power of God for salvation, because it gives us knowledge about who and what Jesus is and what He did for us. The Word of God is living, active, and sharper than any two edge sword, but the Gospel is just part of the Word of God.

Frankly, I'm not sure there's much for us to discuss on this topic. There's simply no common ground here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Frankly, I'm not sure there's much for us to discuss on this topic. There's simply no common ground here.

So you don't believe that the Gospel is the "good news" about Jesus and what He did for us?
You don't believe that the Jesus is the power that the Gospel tells us about?

If that is the case, then no, we do not have any common ground here. The Gospel is not the savior. The Gospel is not the thing that I worship. The Gospel tells about the one I worship.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you don't believe that the Gospel is the "good news" about Jesus and what He did for us?

Oh, I believe that. More than that, I believe that Jesus is Himself the Good News. And I believe that the Good News of Jesus, and what God promises us actually is living, powerful. The Gospel actually converts people, because Jesus Christ is in His Gospel, He is there, in His Word.

You don't believe that the Jesus is the power that the Gospel tells us about?

I'd consider that a false dichotomy.

If that is the case, then no, we do not have any common ground here. The Gospel is not the savior. The Gospel is not the thing that I worship. The Gospel tells about the one I worship.

I believe that the Gospel saves, because Jesus is the Savior. If you don't believe in the saving power of the living Gospel of Jesus Christ, then we don't believe in the same Gospel.

I believe that when God speaks, things happen. I believe that when God declares a person just, they are justified.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh, I believe that. More than that, I believe that Jesus is Himself the Good News. And I believe that the Good News of Jesus, and what God promises us actually is living, powerful. The Gospel actually converts people, because Jesus Christ is in His Gospel, He is there, in His Word.

Jesus is not the Gospel. The Gospel is the story told four times in the Scriptures, by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and much later by John. The Gospel is an it, not a He (Rom 1:16-17). It tells the story of the Christ.

I'd consider that a false dichotomy.

No, it is not. The Gospel is not Jesus. Jesus is what/who the Gospel is about.

I believe that the Gospel saves, because Jesus is the Savior. If you don't believe in the saving power of the living Gospel of Jesus Christ, then we don't believe in the same Gospel.

As I said in previous posts, the Gospel is about the savior, Jesus, and it has the power to save because Jesus gave us His righteousness through His blood which we learn about in the Gospel. The Gospel is not the Savior, but it carries the Savior's power.

I believe that when God speaks, things happen. I believe that when God declares a person just, they are justified.

This, at least, is accurate. The only question would be, at what point in a person's journey does God declare a person justified?

 

[ViaCrucis]

This, at least, is accurate. The only question would be, at what point in a person's journey does God declare a person justified?

Who said it is a one time thing?

But, again, it's clear there isn't any common ground here.

I don't believe the Gospel is just words about Jesus, it's way more than just the story about Jesus. The Gospel is alive, it's God's word. The Gospel has power, because the word of God is powerful, living, active.

I'm not going to believe in a dead gospel. I believe in the Gospel which is the very power of God saving me, because this Gospel is Jesus Christ living and incarnate, crucified, dead, and risen, and seated at the right hand of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Who said it is a one time thing?

But, again, it's clear there isn't any common ground here.

I don't believe the Gospel is just words about Jesus, it's way more than just the story about Jesus. The Gospel is alive, it's God's word. The Gospel has power, because the word of God is powerful, living, active.

I'm not going to believe in a dead gospel. I believe in the Gospel which is the very power of God saving me, because this Gospel is Jesus Christ living and incarnate, crucified, dead, and risen, and seated at the right hand of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

I never said the Gospel was dead. It is very much alive, and powerful. But the Gospel does not save you because of itself. It is the power of God for salvation because it is the good news about Jesus, who is our Christ, our Messiah, our Savior, our Lord. But as I said before, the Gospel is not a person, not a "him". It is a thing, an "it". Do you worship the Gospel? I do not. I worship the one about whom the Gospel teaches us. Put the Gospel in its proper place, as a means to an end, not the end itself.