does baptism have a expiration date?

[Doug Brents]

Scripture said that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. To bear the fruit of God's love is hoped for and evidence.

Hebrews 11:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Very good. Now what is substance? What is evidence? Is there evidence in a thought? Is a thought admissible in court to convict someone?

What does James say about faith? Faith without action is dead. Faith without action cannot save you. Actions are the soul which gives life to faith. Actions complete and make perfect faith.

So you "believe in your heart" that you are saved? That is not faith.

 

[HopeSings]

Very good. Now what is substance? What is evidence? Is there evidence in a thought? Is a thought admissible in court to convict someone?

What does James say about faith? Faith without action is dead. Faith without action cannot save you. Actions are the soul which gives life to faith. Actions complete and make perfect faith.

So you "believe in your heart" that you are saved? That is not faith.

If I believe then I want to obey. If Jesus tells me to do something then my aim is to do it. Those who keep his words love him as he said. They're the Father's words.

 

[Dan Perez]

The simple answer is NO it don't count.

Jesus Himself told us how the order is

Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So what we see is, Believing comes first.
Then the Believer is to become Baptized.

The person who does not become a Believer is damed.

But the Believer who does not become Baptized, will continue to walk in sin, there is nothing about him that has changed, he is not a Born Again Believer, he is still living in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit indwells us upon Baptism unto Newness of life in the Spirit.

Gal_2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And what Mark 16:16 are NEVER told is where is says , SHALLN BE SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , FUTURE TENSE , means that it has not yet come to PASS , as it is yet to happen in the the FUTURE

Has anyone seen verse come to pass IN Mark 16:17-18 ??

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

And what Mark 16:16 are NEVER told is where is says , SHALLN BE SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , FUTURE TENSE , means that it has not yet come to PASS , as it is yet to happen in the the FUTURE

Has anyone seen verse come to pass IN Mark 16:17-18 ??

dan p

As in, once a person believes and is baptized they shall be saved? Just as the text says?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

As in, once a person believes and is baptized they shall be saved? Just as the text says?

-CryptoLutheran

Do babies believe?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do babies believe?

Assuming that faith is a gift from God which He works and creates in us in through His word, then yes--in the gift of their baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kingrandrei]

Yes, baptism lasts forever. Should there be a case someone feels lost and needs to re-baptize I suggest they do so. Nothing wrong with re-birth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Assuming that faith is a gift from God which He works and creates in us in through His word, then yes--in the gift of their baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

Do some babies disbelieve?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do some babies disbelieve?

We all come into this world sinful, sinning, and dead without faith. Without the miraculous intervention of God's grace through the Gospel we would all remain dead and without hope.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, baptism lasts forever. Should there be a case someone feels lost and needs to re-baptize I suggest they do so. Nothing wrong with re-birth.

Wouldn't the preferable thing to tell someone is to trust in God? We should be teaching each other, and confessing together, the faithfulness of God and His promises. He is Faithful and True, and we can have total confidence in Him.

It makes no more sense to me to tell someone that, if they are lacking in confidence in the Gospel, to get "rebaptized", then to suggest the Lord Jesus Himself get "re-crucified". What the Lord has done, He has done, and we should be encouraging one another in faith and toward faith. When we have doubts (and we all have our doubts) we should be pointing one another back to Jesus, back to God's promises, back to the Faithfulness and Trustworthiness of God.

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing." - 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

We all come into this world sinful, sinning, and dead without faith. Without the miraculous intervention of God's grace through the Gospel we would all remain dead and without hope.

-CryptoLutheran

Do some babies believe and then are baptized, as scripture says to do or do babies get belief because they are baptized?

 

[Doug Brents]

Do some babies believe and then are baptized, as scripture says to do or do babies get belief because they are baptized?

Babies do not believe or disbelieve. They do not have the capacity to understand the Gospel. For one who is old enough to understand the Gospel, belief must come before baptism for there to be any effectiveness in baptism. For the one who does believe, salvation is received in baptism. For the one who does not believe, they just get wet.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do some babies believe and then are baptized, as scripture says to do

That isn't what Scripture prescribes concerning baptism.

or do babies get belief because they are baptized?

Yes. Because faith is a gift which God gives.

Nobody has faith except that God gives it. That's what Paul is talking about in Romans 10. It's why Jesus gave the Church the Great Commission, it's why Paul says that the Gospel needs to be preached, and people need to go and preach it.

This is what led Luther to write in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - Large Catechism, Secion II, Article III, 38

Because that's exactly what St. Paul said,

"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?" - Romans 10:14-15a

Where the Word of God is, there God is at work to give, create, and strengthen faith.

Will all believe? No. But that is an entirely different topic; what is topical is the necessity of the word of God to give and create faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Babies do not believe or disbelieve. They do not have the capacity to understand the Gospel. For one who is old enough to understand the Gospel, belief must come before baptism for there to be any effectiveness in baptism. For the one who does believe, salvation is received in baptism. For the one who does not believe, they just get wet.

So then why does the Scripture say that John the Baptist, filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, lept for joy at the sight of the pregnant Virgin Mary?

If infants cannot have faith, then this statement is meaningless. Or can a person be filled with the Holy Spirit and be without faith?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stephen Andrew]

Peace to all,

A Baptized infant cannot sin until the being reaches the age of knowing the difference between good and evil. In Baptism, the infant becomes immortal and incorruptible in the flesh and the spirit in the soul and once sin is become again to the spirit, regeneration of the Holy Spirit sanctified will of God is through the Other sacrament of dead to life in penance and Communion in fellowship with all mankind. This is the same fro the adult in Baptism, dead flesh to life, and acceptance into the Body of Christ as an adult being knowing already the knowledge of choice from the tree of good and evil. Already knowing the Difference between good and evil is the internal tempters in the being that allow defilement of the spirit other than sanctified, or other than pleasing to God. We know Christ is glorified in Spirit and Body after the Baptism in the Jordan River. Through penance and reconfirmation of the will of The Holy Spirit regeneration of the Holy Spirit will of God returns the spirit in the soul of the being to sanctified, dead spirit to Holy Spirit life, and now able to transfigure into the image of the Father through the Holy Spirit image intelligence to manifest by the spirit in the soul of the Body for unfailing eternal life in Heaven.

Baptism and Communion are sacraments of the dead flesh and spirit respectively in the soul of the being becoming transfigured life in immortal flesh and sanctified spirit. The the spirit in the soul of the being respectively become the image of the Creator, God, The Father.

This to me is the Logic of the Holy Spirit will of God, as sanctified in spirit in the soul of the being in the Body of the Christ, ready for glorification and transfiguration becoming the image of the Creator, God, The Father.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Doug Brents]

So then why does the Scripture say that John the Baptist, filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, lept for joy at the sight of the pregnant Virgin Mary?

If infants cannot have faith, then this statement is meaningless. Or can a person be filled with the Holy Spirit and be without faith?

-CryptoLutheran

A person can indeed be filled with the Holy Spirit and not have faith. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" is different from being "indwelt by the Holy Spirit". No one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after Jesus was glorified, yet many were filled with the Holy Spirit from the beginning of Scripture, ie: Moses, David, Elisha, Elijah, the Judges, the Prophets, Balaam's donkey, etc.

The fact that John was given the spiritual sense to recognize the Messiah even from the womb does not indicate his mental understanding. Neither he nor even Jesus was not able to understand the Scripture until they learned to speak, and listen to their teachers, and memorized the Scriptures, etc.

As Rom 10 says, how can one have faith if he has not yet believed? And how can one believe if he has not yet heard? etc.

 

[ViaCrucis]

A person can indeed be filled with the Holy Spirit and not have faith. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" is different from being "indwelt by the Holy Spirit". No one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after Jesus was glorified, yet many were filled with the Holy Spirit from the beginning of Scripture, ie: Moses, David, Elisha, Elijah, the Judges, the Prophets, Balaam's donkey, etc.

The fact that John was given the spiritual sense to recognize the Messiah even from the womb does not indicate his mental understanding. Neither he nor even Jesus was not able to understand the Scripture until they learned to speak, and listen to their teachers, and memorized the Scriptures, etc.

As Rom 10 says, how can one have faith if he has not yet believed? And how can one believe if he has not yet heard? etc.

It would appear that it is now incumbant upon you to make the argument that faith is, or requires, a "mental understanding". I'm not aware of that definition of faith in Scripture, but given your confidence in that definition of faith, I'd like to see you back it up.

My position is that faith isn't about a "mental understanding", it's not about the power of the mind, or human reason. Even an infant can have faith. Even those with learning disabillities can have faith. Faith is not a property of higher reasoning, but is a gift from outside of ourselves, given to us, by God, and that it is trust.

The Scriptures consistently point us to the simple, the unlearned, and the child to teach us of faith.

Christ said concerning small children, "To such as these belongs the kingdom" (Matthew 19:14) and also "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to infants;" (Matthew 11:25).

It was the Pharisees and scribes of the law who wanted to glory in their own means of knowledge, and in their own authority, to lord over the common people and who sought to put roadblocks and gatekeep the things of God--but Christ came saying He is the Door and He is the Gate, and all who enter through Him surely enter.

When people brought their little ones to the Savior, some among His disciples tried to shoo them away, but the Lord rebuked them saying, "Do not hinder these little ones from coming to Me".

The Gospel isn't the luxury of the privileged, it is the common and abundant love of the good Father in heaven who so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son; and who poured out His Spirit upon all flesh in order that He might bring in many sons and daughters, and that the earth might be filled with the glory of God.

If you want to argue that God denies infants and small children His love and grace (which is what denying them faith means), then I believe you are going to have to try really, really hard to make a convincing argument.

As for your statement about "nobody was indwelt by the Holy Spirit before Jesus rose", I know that argument, but is there an actual biblical basis for that claim? Or is that just a parroting of a common modern doctrinal refrain? What is the actual, substantive basis for that claim?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

It would appear that it is now incumbant upon you to make the argument that faith is, or requires, a "mental understanding". I'm not aware of that definition of faith in Scripture, but given your confidence in that definition of faith, I'd like to see you back it up.

My position is that faith isn't about a "mental understanding", it's not about the power of the mind, or human reason. Even an infant can have faith. Even those with learning disabillities can have faith. Faith is not a property of higher reasoning, but is a gift from outside of ourselves, given to us, by God, and that it is trust.

The Scriptures consistently point us to the simple, the unlearned, and the child to teach us of faith.

Christ said concerning small children, "To such as these belongs the kingdom" (Matthew 19:14) and also "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to infants;" (Matthew 11:25).

It was the Pharisees and scribes of the law who wanted to glory in their own means of knowledge, and in their own authority, to lord over the common people and who sought to put roadblocks and gatekeep the things of God--but Christ came saying He is the Door and He is the Gate, and all who enter through Him surely enter.

When people brought their little ones to the Savior, some among His disciples tried to shoo them away, but the Lord rebuked them saying, "Do not hinder these little ones from coming to Me".

The Gospel isn't the luxury of the privileged, it is the common and abundant love of the good Father in heaven who so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son; and who poured out His Spirit upon all flesh in order that He might bring in many sons and daughters, and that the earth might be filled with the glory of God.

If you want to argue that God denies infants and small children His love and grace (which is what denying them faith means), then I believe you are going to have to try really, really hard to make a convincing argument.

As for your statement about "nobody was indwelt by the Holy Spirit before Jesus rose", I know that argument, but is there an actual biblical basis for that claim? Or is that just a parroting of a common modern doctrinal refrain? What is the actual, substantive basis for that claim?

-CryptoLutheran

Faith, indeed, is an inherent attribute of the human psyche. Nobody exists without faith. However, faith in a particular person, idea, or system of thought, is not shared by all people. If it were, then Universalism would have a clear claim to orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity requires a specific object of a person's faith - the person and work of Jesus Christ. One cannot have that faith apart from God, the Holy Spirit, lifting the spiritual veil that lies over everyone's mind as a result of the Fall.

As much as we might wish to lift that veil ourselves, whether through religious rituals or other means, it is really quite impossible to do so. One must believe prior to being baptized. If it were in reverse order, then sacerdotalists, if they actually believed this themselves, would be frantically and systematically baptizing anyone and everyone. To do otherwise, would be to deny people eternal life through baptism.

 

[The Liturgist]

Assuming that faith is a gift from God which He works and creates in us in through His word, then yes--in the gift of their baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

The Orthodox believe that baptism functions noetically, and thus we take a view on Baptism very similiar to the Lutheran one.

Although we go further and give Chrismation and the Eucharist to newly baptized infants, because we believe that they will discern tne Lord’s body, while otherwise adopting a policy very similiar to that of the LCMS regarding the Eucharist (that is to say, closed communion is the norm, although the Assyrian Church of the East and some Oriental Orthodox, but not the Coptic Orthodox, allow anyone who believes that Christ is physically present in the Eucharist and accepts the Nicene Creed to partake of the Eucharist, unless they have been specifically excluded from communion, and that is extremely rare, particularly since most members of the Church of the East do not practice auricular confession and many are unaware that it is available as a sacrament.

 

[Doug Brents]

It would appear that it is now incumbant upon you to make the argument that faith is, or requires, a "mental understanding". I'm not aware of that definition of faith in Scripture, but given your confidence in that definition of faith, I'd like to see you back it up.

Acts 10:13-14 is very clear that we are saved because we call on the name of the Lord, and we can only call on Him if we believe (have faith) in Him, and we can only believe in Him if we have heard the Gospel of Him.

My position is that faith isn't about a "mental understanding", it's not about the power of the mind, or human reason. Even an infant can have faith. Even those with learning disabillities can have faith. Faith is not a property of higher reasoning, but is a gift from outside of ourselves, given to us, by God, and that it is trust.

Faith is not a gift from God. The things in which we have faith (Jesus, the Gospel, etc.) are the gifts from God. Faith is our response to what God has done, and it includes our understanding of what He did and the actions inspired by that understanding. If you do not understand your need for a savior, then there is no desire in yourself to find a savior. If there is no understanding of the amazing gift God gave us in His Son, then there is no feeling of a need for faith.

The Scriptures consistently point us to the simple, the unlearned, and the child to teach us of faith.

What is childlike faith? It is trust in the strength, authority, and generosity of our Lord. Just as a child learns that his parents will provide for and protect it very early on in its life, and then has faith, based on that experience, in the continued love and provision, so we learn to trust in God by learning of His provision for His people throughout history. But without that understanding there is not trust.

As for your statement about "nobody was indwelt by the Holy Spirit before Jesus rose", I know that argument, but is there an actual biblical basis for that claim? Or is that just a parroting of a common modern doctrinal refrain? What is the actual, substantive basis for that claim?

John 7:39 - "But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."