Doctrines of Devils?

[Soyeong]

The thing about diet is, that the Bible is clear that what one person may be convicted about in terms of eating or not eating, is not necessarily the same for another person. So we must not cause another to stumble by burdening them with what we are personally convicted of.

Romans 14

During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings and fences, which would later be written down in the Mishna, and which were a major source of conflict between the Pharisees and Jesus so much so that he called them hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is critically important to correctly distinguish what is said about man's law and God's Law so that we do not make the mistake of taking something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying the God that we serve.

In regard to Romans 14, no one was questioning whether followers of God should follow God's commands or whether we should follow Christ's example, and Paul was certainly not saying that we are free to commit murder, theft, adultery, or to disobey any of God's commands just so long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok. Rather, the topic of the chapter is stated in the first verse, namely how to handle disputes over matters of opinion. So for example, they did not dispute whether to obey God's clear command against idolatry, but they did dispute what things counted as idolatry. Meat that had be sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so someone at a community meal who couldn't verify how the meat had been slaughtered might be of the opinion that only vegetables should be eaten (Romans 14:2). They were judging those who ate everything at the community meal and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:3), so it was exactly this sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was writing this chapter to quell, which means that we should not take anything in this chapter as being against obeying God. I think that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying a single one of God's commands, but we must obey God rather than man, so if you nevertheless continue to think that Paul was speaking against obeying God, then when it comes down to it you should obey God instead of Paul, and disregard what Paul said. Again, I do not think that it comes down to that, but if you do, then you should not be a follower of Paul instead of a follower of God.

Also, Jesus' perfect obedience to the Law/sinlessness is ultimately what enabled Him to save us (as He was the spotless Lamb of God). It is true that He taught His disciples many things, but precisely because they were His disciples. Those things would not save them in and of themselves, but are the result of having been saved and forgiven.

Out of love for Jesus our Saviour, we too should desire to take up our cross as His disciples and be imitators of Him. We grow in Christian maturity throughout our lives.

I agree, but if Titus 2:11-14 is true that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, then growing in maturity is also part of our salvation.

 

[amariselle]

You may note that Peter left his wife in Judea when

Which is why you are painting with a broad brush. You are calling practices "doctrine of the devil" that are completely consistent with Biblical and Christian practice. What would we call that?

Actually, I called nothing "doctrine of demons", you do realize I quoted Scripture, right?

Perhaps you should read the OP again.

 

[amariselle]

During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings and fences, which would later be written down in the Mishna, and which were a major source of conflict between the Pharisees and Jesus so much so that he called them hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is critically important to correctly distinguish what is said about man's law and God's Law so that we do not make the mistake of taking something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying the God that we serve.

In regard to Romans 14, no one was questioning whether followers of God should follow God's commands or whether we should follow Christ's example, and Paul was certainly not saying that we are free to commit murder, theft, adultery, or to disobey any of God's commands just so long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok. Rather, the topic of the chapter is stated in the first verse, namely how to handle disputes over matters of opinion. So for example, they did not dispute whether to obey God's clear command against idolatry, but they did dispute what things counted as idolatry. Meat that had be sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so someone at a community meal who couldn't verify how the meat had been slaughtered might be of the opinion that only vegetables should be eaten (Romans 14:2). They were judging those who ate everything at the community meal and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:3), so it was exactly this sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was writing this chapter to quell, which means that we should not take anything in this chapter as being against obeying God. I think that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying a single one of God's commands, but we must obey God rather than man, so if you nevertheless continue to think that Paul was speaking against obeying God, then when it comes down to it you should obey God instead of Paul, and disregard what Paul said. Again, I do not think that it comes down to that, but if you do, then you should not be a follower of Paul instead of a follower of God.

I truly have no idea why people keep thinking that I am encouraging disobedience to God in this thread. (Nor do I believe Paul ever did such a thing either).

I agree, but if Titus 2:11-14 is true that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, then growing in maturity is also part of our salvation.

Our salvation is not about our works of "obedience" at all. It is all what Christ has done and our faith in His finished work.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

moved

 

[amariselle]

Simply, you posted something from Scripture, that others (disobedient groups) often use to claim that they do not have to obey God.
The association of that Scripture with those others (disobedient ones) is quite common on this forum,
and is not used very often by those who do obey God.
Thus the questions/ thinking / wondering/ trying to verify the purpose of posting that Scripture.

Whoever these "disobedient ones" are that you are referring to, should not cause you to accuse me of encouraging others to disobey God.

The purpose of my posting the Scripture is stated quite clearly in the OP. (As I have told you repeatedly.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

moved

 

[amariselle]

As I reminded you repeatedly, I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked a few questions to see if you were with those groups that you don't identify yourself, the groups who go along with the doctrines of demons. I never said you went along with them. And you never answered the questions in any way satisfactorily to show that you did not go along with them.
Besides the OP, you yourself posted those later in the thread, posts that included Scripture that others (unidentified for now) use to try to justify their disobedience of God's Word. That was why I asked you about that - you brought it up a few times now, and never answered the simple, innocent questions I asked with no accusation of you, to VERIFY why you posted those Scripture.
Now, a few times, you have said you do not promote disobedience, which is fine and good.
You can answer the other questions later if you want to , but you don't have to, obviously...
but it's not ever been required - it would have just cleared things up much easier if you had answered civilly instead of making false charges against others.

I made no "false charges" against anyone. You chose to go off topic multiple times by suggesting that somehow I was promoting disobedience to God. (The posts are there if you would like to go back and read them for yourself).

As for quoting Scriptures you say others use to promote disobedience to God, that's the problem. You can't just assume that because someone shares Scriptures that other people have used in harmful ways, that that person has the same intentions.

We share Scripture and discuss it on this forum. It was (and still is) my hope that we could do so respectfully without accusing people of having ulterior motives or bad intentions.

God bless

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

moved

 

[jykond]

The problem with christians is that we have become so lazy. Our fathers in the faith were so fervent and desirous of the Word of God. They searched the scriptures earnestly and bring up whatever is wrong to disgrace the devil. The Roman Catholic church hold its priests in bondage because of its gross link to the devil. there form of christianity as been so corrupted through the influence of the Roman empire which financed the early church

 

[timewerx]

I believe that is the answer to the questions.

If more people would study the word of God on a regular basis instead of simply taking what church leadership proclaims is truth, more eyes would be opened.

....And most Christian Churches around the world will loose their members!

 

[amariselle]

Don't worry - I read and re-read them and copied all of them because of your allegations. (none of which you ever showed).
I did not "just assume that because someone (you) shares Scriptures that other people have used in harmful ways, that that person (you) has the same intentions" ...
Instead of "assuming" anything, any time,
I asked you questions about those things, to clarify which side you were on (it still is not clear, as you keep repeating the same false accusations and still have not answered the questions that were posted to see which side you were on) ....
I still don't "assume" you are on the wrong side, no,
just wonder if you will ever answer the questions which would have vindicated you right away if you are on the right side, and would have avoided the round robin so to speak - like going in circles wondering why you wouldn't answer the questions which would have immediateiy vindicated you.
the questions which would have immediately shown you were on the right side, not encouraging others to disobey God.
Those questions are still standing - still unanswered - and no, you do not have to answer them,
even though they would vindicate you now just as well as they would have vindicated you the first time they were answered, if you had answered them .

Other things (or at least one) I noticed while re-reading all the posts -
not for this thread probably, except again, you posted something in error about the righteous gentiles , directly contrary to what is written in the New Testament.
I do not mention this to get an answer about this,
nor even to pursue it here (it was so many pages back), but
to show how awkward it is at times if you don't answer while it is still the topic at hand,
and how quickly and how long stretched out it can get if questions are not answered as the thread goes on.

The questions were not ever accusations, but simply honest questions for clarification. (yes, it would be 'harmful' if someone was on the wrong side ,
but much rather as desired "good" to show someone was on the right side -

i.e. the purpose (of the questions) was most hopeful expectation in line with Scripture, testing with an expectation of a positive result, the same as is used throughout Scripture.

I didn't realize I was on trial.

Is this some kind of inquisition?

You do know that calling the faith of another forum member into question is a direct violation of forum rules right?

We are done discussing this.

 

[amariselle]

....And most Christian Churches around the world will loose their members!

That, sadly, is perhaps not too far from the truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

moved

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, you need to take the time to understand in context what is being discussed here and what I was actually saying.

I think I understood better than you think - and my questions of you were simply to clarify some things you posted that you refused then to clarify .... in context with the title of the thread, and the op .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

simplified

 

[PropheticTimes]

....And most Christian Churches around the world will loose their members!

You are right.

 

[Adstar]

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." 1 Timothy 4:1-6

If the Bible says that forbidding to marry and commanding that people "abstain" from meats are "doctrines of devils", why do so many Christians accept these restrictions (often commanded and imposed by church leadership) as actually from God Himself?

Thoughts?

I do not accept those restrictions.. And other Christians do not accept such restrictions either.. If a church leadership teaches such things then they are not of the true Church and they should not be your leaders...

 

[Goatee]

The problem with christians is that we have become so lazy. Our fathers in the faith were so fervent and desirous of the Word of God. They searched the scriptures earnestly and bring up whatever is wrong to disgrace the devil. The Roman Catholic church hold its priests in bondage because of its gross link to the devil. there form of christianity as been so corrupted through the influence of the Roman empire which financed the early church

Spoken with massive ignorance of the CC

 

[amariselle]

Spoken with massive ignorance of the CC

As I have stated, this thread is not targeting the Catholic Church. However, anyone who is interested in Roman Catholicism (or any Protestant denomination) can and should do some research.

There is a lot of well documented information from reputable sources to be be found.

I think it's something everyone should be willing to do, before they accept any teachings (no matter who says them) as truth.

 

[Goatee]

I agree but lots and lots of FALSE information out there!