Doctrine of Hell

[goodnews]

Genez,

Did you know that there is NO Greek or Hebrew word for eternity in the Bible?

 

[goodnews]

Genez,

Do you believe that God will send EVERYONE who does not believe in Jesus to Hell?

Do you know anyone who has not received Jesus? Are you FEARFUL that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire?

Should we not WEEP endlessly, for all the babies and little children who died without knowing Jesus, if they are indeed headed to the lake of fire for all eternity?

Personally If I believed that most of my family and loved ones were going to be torchured without hope of mercy forever and ever, I would have no joy. What would the Goodnews be worth?

 

[GenemZ]

This is an interesting topic and I'd like to find out what the truth is, but I think we're not going to get there this time. Why? because I don't think we're really trying to find the truth. To take one quote as an example, (and sorry for picking on you genez but...)


thats not very helpful in finding out what the truth is. 'they' specifically refers to the devil and his angels, and not people. So we don't need to make up our own tranlation.

The Beast and the False Prophet are people! I really figured everyone who reads the Bible already knew this...They will share the same place with the Devil (like all unbelievers will).

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Revelation 19:20 niv

Prophets are people, not demons! They may be demon possessed, but they are still human! The Beast will be the world dictator during the Tribulation. There are other beasts mentioned in Revelation that are not human, but "The Beast" will be a man!

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Revelation 13:18 niv

Now, what were you saying?

This is an interesting topic and I'd like to find out what the truth is, but I think we're not going to get there this time. Why? because I don't think we're really trying to find the truth. To take one quote as an example, (and sorry for picking on you genez but...)


thats not very helpful in finding out what the truth is. 'they' specifically refers to the devil and his angels, and not people. So we don't need to make up our own tranlation.

It was very helpful! That is, for those who do understand who the Beast dictator will be during the Tribulation.

"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." Daniel 11:36-37 niv

He will be human!

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv

The Devil will also be in the Lake of Fire! Sure! After all, it was originally designed for him and his angels! All unbelievers will end up there, too!

"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15 niv

"Then he will say to those (these are people) on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41 niv

The Lake of Fire will be torments for ever and ever.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv

Now, wish to comment as you did before?

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

Did you know that there is NO Greek or Hebrew word for eternity in the Bible?

Good point!

From age, or to age... Its idiomatic. It means what we call Eternity.

There is also no Greek or Hebrew word for emotion. Yet, they had words that described what we call emotion. And, in the Greek they dropped the word "the" to show importance to an object. In English we do just the opposite. Also, double negatives in the Greek reinforces the meaning. In English, it nullifies it.

That is why God raises up qualified scholars for our benefit. So we can know these things. Here is one I have learned from over the years...

http://www.berachah.org/

The lessons are without charge. Tapes and books, alike!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

Do you believe that God will send EVERYONE who does not believe in Jesus to Hell?

Not babies. Not idiots who can not reason. God automatically saves those who can not reason good from evil, and die before they are able to. David had a son only a few days old that died. This is what David said after his death.

"David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."

Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:19-23 niv

David knew he would see his son again after he will die.

Do you know anyone who has not received Jesus? Are you FEARFUL that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire?

We all do. The famous Evangelist D.L. Moody had a son who was an atheist.

Should we not WEEP endlessly, for all the babies and little children who died without knowing Jesus, if they are indeed headed to the lake of fire for all eternity?

No... they are saved automatically if they die before their time.

Personally If I believed that most of my family and loved ones were going to be torchured without hope of mercy forever and ever, I would have no joy. What would the Goodnews be worth?

God, who will be sending them there, has perfect endless joy. His righteousness and justice are perfect. What keeps us unhappy is our ignorance of the truth. Jesus said, "the truth will make you free."

If my family were all unbelievers? At the resurrection I will have been transformed to knowing Christ as he knows me.

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12 niv

He will wipe away every tear by making me able to see these things as he sees them.

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelation 21:4

He has perfect joy! People will be in Hell, and he has perfect joy! What does he know that allows for such joy? If my family are to go to the lake of fire? I will be in agreement with Christ. For I will be able to see it as he sees it. I will not be shaken from the joy of the Lord.

"But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy." Hebrews 1:8-9 niv

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[G4m]

No... they are saved automatically if they die before their time.

But this would mean they don't ever get to choose? Also they wouldn't have to accept Christ as their saviour?

 

[john14_20]

The Father created the human race for inclusion in His life - to be adopted (Eph 1)

With the entrance of sin, humanity began walking down the road of alienation, blindness, lostness and even perhaps into non-being. (Athanasius)

The Father would not tolerate our existence like this, and He sent the Son to rescue us - the whole darn lot.

He sent the Son to search us out, hoist us up on His shoulders and carry us home. This was what was accomplished in the life, death, resurrection and ascension.

Everybody, and I mean everybody, will be locked in the embrace of the Father upon thier death. There is no question of Heaven Vs hell. All people are in the Father's arms. The love of God is inescapable.

This does not imply in any way that love can be forced. It cannot. It must be freely chosen. But who say our free choice to love God (or not love God) determines whether we go to Heaven or hell?

Ephesians 1 says we are adopted. Think of an adopted child. We have friends who just adopted an Indian girl about 3 years old. This girl had no knowledge of the process that was going on to secure her adoption. She had no choice in the matter. The people that wanted her home with them just set about and made it so. She has no free will on this matter - she is now a sharer in thier life, and living in thier embrace.

Now here's the 'free will' part.

She had no choice in getting this new existence. If she wants her new existence, then she will enjoy it. It will be the best thing ever. HEAVEN

If she does not want it and yet cannot escape it, then it is the worst thing ever. HELL

In either example her situation is no different, but her experience of it is opposite.

Heaven and hell are not geographical categories, but relational ones.

Heaven is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and loving it.

Hell is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and hating it - and being unable to escape.

Blessings to all Pete

 

[SPALATIN]

In the words of a Christian comedian who went wayward in the early 90s Mike Warnke,
"Everything that can be done for you has been done. If you go to hell you paddle your own canoe."

I can not by my own reason or strength come to faith in Christ. So if left to my own devices I will be paddling. But if I believe the one who was sent was sent to pay for my sins by his death and through his resurrection I am taken out of the canoe I have something to be thankful for don't I?

 

[GenemZ]

But this would mean they don't ever get to choose? Also they wouldn't have to accept Christ as their saviour?

Because they can not choose, is the reason they are saved. God controls when and where each one of us is to be born.

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:26 niv

God knows who will believe in Him, and who will not. Those he knows will believe were written in the Lamb's book of Life at the foundations of the world.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love" Ephesians 1:4 niv

He chose us to be in Christ, to be the Bride of Christ... long before we were born. He did not choose us to believe. He simply chose us to be born at a time when to believe would enter us into being the Bride of Christ. Moses and David were not chosen to be the Bride. Yet, God always knew they would believe. They were not chosen IN HIM. They were chosen for another purpose. Yet, God does not choose who will believe. He chooses what it is we are to be involved with in our particular salvation, because he knows we will believe.

God already knows who will believe in Him before they are born. And, since God controls when and where we are to be born, God can choose to have only those who he knows will believe to die at a very young age before they can choose to believe. This way God is fair in allowing a baby to die. He could not allow for a baby to die who had no choice in ending up in Hell. That would be unjust. Only those He knows would believe if they reached the age of accounatbility are the only ones who die very young.

When they open their eyes in Heaven, believe me, they will not miss this place. No complaints will be offered about not remaining alive in the Devil's world!

Yes.... when God commanded the pagan nations to be utterly destroyed by the Jews... to kill men, women, and children.... These children were saved. The adults were living in total evil, and were not! It was because of this evil that they were to be destroyed. The children were saved. God controls when each one of us is to be born. He knows who will believe. He can do it. Satan thought he had robbed God of all those souls, yet God harvested the children to come to Him.

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:26 niv


Grace and truth.......... GeneZ

 

[Carl Carlson]

I understand, and I agree. It's just where people try to draw the lines...the age that people think children can finally believe, basically...that's where I have the issue. Some people may say it's around 12 years old, or whatever age they think children can come to "saving faith" (I don't quote saving faith to be sarcastic...I'm just trying to put it in their terms). I agree with what you are saying Carl. But I won't try to determine things such as others do about an age when children reach a certain maturity to finally make a decision to be saved, or to be able to lose their salvation...it seems pointless to try to pin point such a maturity to me, because I can't determine it...only God would know, right? Besides...I agree with what genez had posted about babies, but to determine a certain age when they can reject Christ, I can't decide. If someone else knows, and can show by Scripture (most preferably), I would appreciate hearing. I'm not saying that I know all about what people call "age of accountability", I'm just going by what I've heard and discussed with others in the past.

Now you may say that "age of accountability" has nothing to do with when they can first believe...but I've kind of received different impressions from others...it may be more of a thing of when they can reject Christ (and some people think that's not possible to do-not trying to start an off topic debate).

I used the phrase "age of accountability", but I personally dont believe its an actual age. I believe that we all reject Christ at a certain point in our lives. I know that there are several places in the Bible that Jesus points out that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to "such as these" and anyone that hinders a child will suffer grave consequences. Jesus also points out that we all need to have faith like a child. This tells me that children have more faith than us to begin with. I believe everyone starts out believing God is God. It only makes sense. It's so simple. Here is this creation, it must have a creator. Man must think to himself that there is no God and reason that he is smarter than his Creator. I believe that is a great rejection. I also believe it to be EXTREMELY important to teach our children God's Word. There are several times in the Bible that we are commanded to teach our children the Law of God and what is right. We have a BIG responsibility when it comes to this. Which is why I believe Jesus stressed it the way that He did.

Matthew 18:1-6
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Sounds like the kids have the one-up on us. Which is good. I'm also going to love children and teach mine obedience in Christ.

In the end, God will do what's right, because he cannot do what is wrong.

Praise the Lord for children. God bless.

 

[Zona]

The passage I gave shows that is an impossibility. It may be comforting to you, but the Word tells us what you claim (and I know, there are others who try, also) is not going to happen.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv

First, thanks for using a modern x-lation. I find it much easier to understand.

Second, do you see that the passage you quote specifies Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet? I am not sure how you get from this passage to an unqualified statement that all who are to thrown into the lake of fire after the Judgement are also to be tormented for eternity.

BTW, I am not seeking comfort and the only thing I have claimed is that I am not sure I know the answers to my questions.

 

[Zona]

It seems that in this thread we're mistaking our dearly held understanding of scripture for the truth, which in this case is not clear, because there are sincere christians with different understandings.

I think in this case we are more interested in defending our understanding than actually learning from others who have a different understanding.

Ideally (I think) we should be positive and explain what and why we think, so that everyone can check it out and see how it compares with scripture.

Here endeth the lesson ... he says getting down off my soapbox. I'm actually trying to answer the question, not just pick on people or sound as though I'm better than anyone else.

Martin

Martin,

I think your post above is excellent and deserves a second hearing, so there it is.

Even though my questions and responses may read like I am advocating a position, I am not. I find that by arguing - meant in the friendliest of ways - a position, I am most likely to find the weakness in the position. I think this is due to that part of human nature that finds it easy to be a critic. So, I hoist an idea above the top of the foxhole and wait for the shooting to start!

 

[Zona]

Per my post #70, I am looking carefully at the passages people have presented in forwarding their reasons for what they believe about hell. Here's my take on the first one.

Earlier a passage from Isaiah was used to make a point re. hell. The passage is as follows:

13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;

you who are near, acknowledge my power!
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-
16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.


​

Specifically, I think verse 14 was used to support that hell is a place of everlasting punishment. Upon study of this verse, I don't think it says anything about hell. I get this from the answer to the passage's question: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" The answer is given that the righteous can dwell in the fire. Nowhere do I know of scripture where the righteous are to dwell in hell.

 

[goodnews]

Per my post #70, I am looking carefully at the passages people have presented in forwarding their reasons for what they believe about hell. Here's my take on the first one.

Earlier a passage from Isaiah was used to make a point re. hell. The passage is as follows:

13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;




you who are near, acknowledge my power!
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-
16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.





​

Specifically, I think verse 14 was used to support that hell is a place of everlasting punishment. Upon study of this verse, I don't think it says anything about hell. I get this from the answer to the passage's question: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" The answer is given that the righteous can dwell in the fire. Nowhere do I know of scripture where the righteous are to dwell in hell.

There are TWO judgements. The first Judgement is upon the House of God (believers) and the second is upon the world (unbelievers), both are symbolic and both FIRES are used to REFINE and CHANGE the said persons.





1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:12-19 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. What is this Everlasting burnings spoken of in Isaiah?

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The carnal man will be destroyed either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[FineLinen]

I think the Lake of Fire and Hell are two words for the same thing. And souls are not destroyed by God - souls will exist in Heaven and hell for eternity.

Ps139.....Could it be that the Lake of Fire that burns with Divine incense, and our God who is consuming fire be the same? And, if hell and the Lake of Fire are the same, evidently hell is cast into itself.

[move]Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire....[/move]

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/iii.htm

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Ps139.....Could it be that the Lake of Fire that burns with Divine incense, and our God who is consuming fire be the same? And, if hell and the Lake of Fire are the same, evidently hell is cast into itself.

[move]Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire....[/move]

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/iii.htm

post #16

Forgive me...

 

[GenemZ]

First, thanks for using a modern x-lation. I find it much easier to understand.

Second, do you see that the passage you quote specifies Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet? I am not sure how you get from this passage to an unqualified statement that all who are to thrown into the lake of fire after the Judgement are also to be tormented for eternity.

BTW, I am not seeking comfort and the only thing I have claimed is that I am not sure I know the answers to my questions.

These are the first three to end up in the lake of fire. If the bible does not tell us that something will be any different for all those who follow, who are you to say otherwise? Why should God only have these two men not annhiliated? It shows that they can be in the Lake of fire and stil exist in a living death. An, unending death... of existance in torment.

You think they are tormented forever because of their sins? How can that be? Their sins were already judged by Christ on the Cross. They are tormented by their rejection of the Lord. Can one be happy without God? Can one have pleasurable life without God? The Lake of Fire is the anthithesis of God. It is the opposite of God. They rejected the Lord even though the Lord died in their place on the Cross so that they may live for God. God is forever. Rejection of the Lord is likewise. They will exist forever with their choice. Torments. God is the opposite of Torments.

The lake of Fire will be something that resurrected saints will be able to view. At least, Isaiah 66:22-24, tells us this...

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD , "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD . "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

The worm will not die there.... Yet, some here believe men's souls will be annhiliated? Their Torment will not be because of the Fire. Their torments will be because of their rejection of God. The fire only keeps them honest. If God provided no torments, they could live in denial for all Eternity about being unhappy without God. The fire keeps them honest about their choice.

The fire is what they need to be saved from. Yet, their real torment will be that they will always be aware that they hated and rejected the one who would have freely saved them.

Grace in peace, Gene

 

[FineLinen]

Orthodoxy: You posted on #16

All of us past and future will be raised bodily on the day of judgement (no rapture, no warnings) and will stand before God for our final and eternal judgement... there will be no mercy, only correct judgement..

There is no judgement of our heavenly Father that is not bathed in mercy, and no mercy apart from judgement. "No mercy only correct judgement" is nonsense!

[move]For His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever.[/move]

"....and mercy triumphs over judgement."

Justice -George MacDonald-

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken3/unspoken3.htm

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Orthodoxy: You posted on #16

There is no judgement of our heavenly Father that is not bathed in mercy, and no mercy apart from judgement. "No mercy only correct judgement" is nonsense!

[move]For His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever.[/move]

"....and mercy triumphs over judgement."

Justice -George MacDonald-

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken3/unspoken3.htm

What I mean to say is there will be no chance to change your position, judgement will be final at that point... God will take whatever we throw at him until that point (the last day), and then it's too late. God's mecry is for us now, among the living, we make our own bed... once we leave this life our opportunity to accept mercy is gone..

Forgive me...

 

[Carl Carlson]

What I mean to say is there will be no chance to change your position, judgement will be final at that point... God will take whatever we throw at him until that point (the last day), and then it's too late. God's mecry is for us now, among the living, we make our own bed... once we leave this life our opportunity to accept mercy is gone..

Forgive me...

Agreed.

His mercy is for us on earth. God is a just Judge and when we face Him, all of our sins, including our secret sins and those commited in our thought life will be exposed. Only Jesus Christ's redeeming gift of salvation will be able to save us, if, that is, we accepted it. When we die or when Jesus comes back will be too late. We are all given time to come to God's mercy, for those of us who haven't, it's a serious thing. And time on earth is shorter to humans that we think. That's why it's so important to reach the sinners here on earth while there is still time. The time we spend on earth pales greatly in comparison to the "time" spent in eternity.

God bless and I pray none of us have to miss out on the Kingdom of Heaven. AMEN.