Doctrine of Hell

[Zona]

Or don't you base your "christian" beliefs on the Bible at all?

Easy, Hola. Keep it friendly and just defend your position.

 

[Zona]

...And souls are not destroyed by God - souls will exist in Heaven and hell for eternity.

Where is it written God does not or will not destroy souls?

 

[GenemZ]

Where is it written God does not or will not destroy souls?

Revelation 20:10 niv

"And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The Beast and the False Prophet are both human. The Devil is not. It says that THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." Young's Literal Translation

There's more. But that makes it simple enough for all to see...

Grace in truth... GeneZ

 

[hola]

Easy, Hola. Keep it friendly and just defend your position.

Sorry, this was not directed towards all on the thread...there were some that have been in discussion with me over certain things. It was mostly directed towards them.

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry, this was not directed towards all on the thread...there were some that have been in discussion with me over certain things. It was mostly directed towards them.

Use the Quote button, then. That way it will directed only towards them.

GAP, GeneZ

 

[Zona]

Revelation 20:10 niv

"And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The Beast and the False Prophet are both human. The Devil is not. It says that THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." Young's Literal Translation

I see your point. Nonetheless, because God will not destroy souls in these cases does not mean these verses say He never will destroy souls.

 

[ps139]

Where is it written God does not or will not destroy souls?

The many places that mention eternal punishment necessitate that souls will not be destroyed, or else "eternal punishment" would be neither eternal nor punishment.

 

[Zona]

Sorry, this was not directed towards all on the thread...there were some that have been in discussion with me over certain things. It was mostly directed towards them.

It's okay. I know at times it's hard to not get testy when discussing/debating doctrine that we are pasionate about getting right.

 

[hola]

Use the Quote button, then. That way it will directed only towards them.

GAP, GeneZ

Advise taken! I will be more considerate of others and try to avoid confusion...although I'm still capable of making the same mistakes again...but I'll try not to.

I didn't really want to point fingers...I should also not bring over any attitude or debating from other threads...but rather leave it where it should be left.

Thanks Zona for your reply also...

 

[Zona]

The many places that mention eternal punishment necessitate that souls will not be destroyed, or else "eternal punishment" would be neither eternal nor punishment.

I think the many passages you refer to are as follows:

Is 33:11-14
Matt 25:41-46
2 Thes 1:6-9
Rev 14:9-11
Rev 20:10-15
​

I hope to very soon look at these carefully. Please let me know if I have missed any.

 

[hola]

The question was posed concerning the children going to heaven.


I do believe in age of accountability and even beyond that, I have faith in Jesus Christ, who said in Matthew 11:25;
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Luke 9:46-48
Who Will Be the Greatest
46An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all--he is the greatest."

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Sounds to me like it's going to be like a big daddy day care in there! The Father with a whole lotta kids! PRAISE THE LORD!

I understand, and I agree. It's just where people try to draw the lines...the age that people think children can finally believe, basically...that's where I have the issue. Some people may say it's around 12 years old, or whatever age they think children can come to "saving faith" (I don't quote saving faith to be sarcastic...I'm just trying to put it in their terms). I agree with what you are saying Carl. But I won't try to determine things such as others do about an age when children reach a certain maturity to finally make a decision to be saved, or to be able to lose their salvation...it seems pointless to try to pin point such a maturity to me, because I can't determine it...only God would know, right? Besides...I agree with what genez had posted about babies, but to determine a certain age when they can reject Christ, I can't decide. If someone else knows, and can show by Scripture (most preferably), I would appreciate hearing. I'm not saying that I know all about what people call "age of accountability", I'm just going by what I've heard and discussed with others in the past.

Now you may say that "age of accountability" has nothing to do with when they can first believe...but I've kind of received different impressions from others...it may be more of a thing of when they can reject Christ (and some people think that's not possible to do-not trying to start an off topic debate).

 

[GenemZ]

I see your point. Nonetheless, because God will not destroy souls in these cases does not mean these verses say He never will destroy souls.

Well, Eternal torment is the destruction of the soul. God did not design the soul for torment. God created the soul for pleasure in God! It is the soul that was created in God's image in Genesis 1. The soul was given a body in Genesis 2.

A rather weak analogy can be seen in a car being totalled. It still exists in the junk yard. And, in God's case with the soul, it was created to exist forever, so it never will rust away. It will just sit there in the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Destroyed, but still existing. Destroyed, means being denied its intended function and purpose.

The soul was designed to worship and to adore God. The second death is being denied any awareness of God. Even now, God is working in mens hearts, even those who will reject Him. Not so in the Lake of Fire. It will be the complete and total removal of God's presence. All they will see is torment and fire.... and their own guilty conscious.

Yet, the Lake of Fire was not intended for man. It was created originally for Satan and his angels.

"Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"...

Matthew 25:41

Men who prefer Satan over the Lord, who wish to follow after the thinking of Satan, are more than welcome to end up where Satan will end up. Just as men who decide to believe in the Lord will end up where the Lord is.

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[hola]

I have to apologize once more...than I'll leave it alone. I went back and read my two posts that I made which said

Is that enough to say it's separation from God for you all?

Or don't you base your "christian" beliefs on the Bible at all?

I did make a general "you all" comment...I was wrong once again. I apologize. I was a bit on the defensive...

I'll leave this alone and not try to bother all of you with this again. Sorry.

 

[Zona]

... Destroyed, means being denied its intended function and purpose.

You are using a different definition than I. Sorry for the ambiguity. From here on I will use annihilate, i.e to cause something to cease to exist.

 

[GenemZ]

You are using a different definition than I. Sorry for the ambiguity. From here on I will use annihilate, i.e to cause something to cease to exist.

The passage I gave shows that is an impossibility. It may be comforting to you, but the Word tells us what you claim (and I know, there are others who try, also) is not going to happen.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv

The Annihilate crowd would need something more like the following....

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented a time, then annhiliated.." Regurgitation 20:10 WKV

It does not tell us that. It tells us the following...

........."They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Unpleasant as that may be to your personal sensibilities. That's the way its to be.

"Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 niv

Accepting that there will be ever lasting torments requires some to deny self in order to continue following Christ. For if we can not deny self and accept it, we will not be following Christ, but rather, a fantasy Christ that pleases our sensibilities. To deny the truth is to call God's ways evil. It is we that need to discover the righteousness of God. He is not going to conform to our concept of what we think God should be.


"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:45-46 niv

God did not create the soul to be able to be annhiliated. The soul was created in God's image. That means the soul has been given ever lasting existance. We can choose life (God), or choose death (Evil). The soul remains existing, even in the eternal spiritual death (cut off from God).

God can not be annhiliated... Nor can the soul created in His image, be. If it could be, then it was not created in his image. God has always existed, and will always exist = Eternal life. The soul was created at a point in time, but from that point on, has everlasting existance. We must choose life. Until we do, we only exist in spiritual death.

"But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Matthew 8:22 niv.

Until we are born again, we exist, but we are not alive. Only in God do we find life. The second death is the designated existance of no more chances to accept life. The greatest torment will be knowing how fair God was in drawing them, which they rejected in arrogance. For at that time they will be able to know the secret of how God attempts to draw all men to Himself. For God is fair. His judgement will be complete. No one will be with excuse. They will know its their own fault for going to the Lake of Fire.

Grace in truth.......... GeneZ

 

[wobbly]

Hi guys,

I tend to go with the idea that the wages of sin is death rather than eternal torment in hell, but I know there are verses that seem to indicate that hell is a place of torment, so to me its not something that is easily decided.

What do you think of Matt 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[1]
[1]Greek Gehenna

Martin

 

[hola]

Either way...I don't want to go to hell.

God bless you all!

EDIT Well...ultimately, the Lake of Fire, that is.

 

[hola]

But I don't mind understanding the truth. I'm thankful when God reveals it to me...even if it's through others.

 

[hola]

Question:

Is there somewhere in Scripture that states that God will prepare a body for eternal damnation for the unbelievers?

 

[wobbly]

This is an interesting topic and I'd like to find out what the truth is, but I think we're not going to get there this time. Why? because I don't think we're really trying to find the truth. To take one quote as an example, (and sorry for picking on you genez but...)

The passage I gave shows that is an impossibility. It may be comforting to you, but the Word tells us what you claim (and I know, there are others who try, also) is not going to happen.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv

The Annihilate crowd would need something more like the following....

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented a time, then annhiliated.." Regurgitation 20:10 WKV

It does not tell us that. It tells us the following...

........."They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Unpleasant as that may be to your personal sensibilities. That's the way its to be.

...

Grace in truth.......... GeneZ

thats not very helpful in finding out what the truth is. 'they' specifically refers to the devil and his angels, and not people. So we don't need to make up our own tranlation.

My position is that we're all fallible and can use correcting.

It seems that in this thread we're mistaking our dearly held understanding of scripture for the truth, which in this case is not clear, because there are sincere christians with different understandings.

I think in this case we are more interested in defending our understanding than actually learning from others who have a different understanding.

Ideally (I think) we should be positive and explain what and why we think, so that everyone can check it out and see how it compares with scripture.

Here endeth the lesson ... he says getting down off my soapbox. I'm actually trying to answer the question, not just pick on people or sound as though I'm better than anyone else.

Martin