Doctrine of Hell

[OrthodoxyUSA]

While this has an appeal to the sentiment, it is not true. Please note the following:

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Psalms 139:8
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Modern preachers actually diminish the teaching of Hell by refusing to name the place and simply saying "eternal separation from God." If all Hell is will be eternal separation from God, then simple death with no afterlife (as the atheists claim) is sufficient. If the separation is the "worst" part of eternal damnation, why does the Scripture not emphasize this instead of the fires of Hell aspect?

Scripture teaches that Hell is only temporary -- where the soul is in torment (see: Lazarus and the rich man). In the end, Hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire. This happens after the wicked are resurrected in bodies. This increases the torment to include physical torment. Over and over the Bible warns of this. Nowhere does it say that the worst aspect is the separation from God. Yes, I think that will be a factor, butthe gnashing of teeth may come from an eternal hatred for God or an eternal regret for missing the opportunity to be saved. The Bible does not say.

Post #16 confirms this...

Forgive me..

 

[Zona]

Orthodoxyusa,

Thanks for the passages. I will study them further.

One note on 138:8. If I remember this verse correctly - I do not immediately have access to my study resources - it is not speaking of the fire-and-brimstone hell but rather it is sheol, which I think was different.

Thanks again.

 

[Lotar]

I don't see where the idea that Hell as seperation for God comes from. There is nothing that states God is not present there.

 

[hola]

How about this one..."Depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[hola]

Plus...remember, David was a believer.

And remember...David said "IF..."!!!

 

[hola]

Oh...(Hallelujah)...how about these Scriptures:

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[hola]

Is that enough to say it's separation from God for you all?

 

[hola]

Or don't you base your "christian" beliefs on the Bible at all?

 

[ps139]

It is clear it is everlasting, but could it be that the everlasting is there for Satan and his like?

If so, why do fallen angels exist forever while damned human souls would cease to exist? In Heaven angels and men will live forever, why would it be different in hell?

Honestly, if mens souls were permanently erased in hell, why talk about it so much? Why talk of the eternity of it if the eternity part only applied to angels - their fates are sealed.

It is eternal in that it is irreversible. It is the end of any hope.

If I were in hell, I'd hope to not exist. But sadly I do not think that is the case. I really hope I am wrong, but I do not believe I am.

 

[ps139]

Is that enough to say it's separation from God for you all?

Is there something wrong with saying that hell is "separation from God"? I think thats a good and sufficient definition. Because it stands to reason that if we are separated from God, Who is the source of all love, all beauty, all truth, essentially - the source of anything which is objectively good - then separation from Him would entail being surrounded by pure evil which is the worst situation possible.

 

[hola]

If so, why do fallen angels exist forever while damned human souls would cease to exist? In Heaven angels and men will live forever, why would it be different in hell?

Honestly, if mens souls were permanently erased in hell, why talk about it so much? Why talk of the eternity of it if the eternity part only applied to angels - their fates are sealed.

If I were in hell, I'd hope to not exist. But sadly I do not think that is the case. I really hope I am wrong, but I do not believe I am.

I'll reply with the Scripture porcupine used:

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Do you see in verse 11 speaks of both the fallen angels and humans. Your assumption was wrong, according to Scripture.

 

[hola]

When Jesus speaks to the "sheep" and "goats" in the end...Jesus says of these "goats", representing the unbelievers (who were once humans before the judgment):

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Matthew 25:46

Am I preaching hell, damnation, and brimstone? I'm just repeating what Jesus said. If you believe in Jesus, and what he says, I recommend listening to him.

 

[Crispie]

If anyone is confused..there is 2 hells, just as there is 2 heavens. The first heaven and hell, then the new heaven and hell created at the end.

 

[hola]

To help give an understanding of the real Greek meaning of the word "presence", specifically mentioned in Revelation 14:10-11 (which Greek word is sometimes, but not always used for the English word "presence" in the NT).

Strong's #1799 enopion, neut. of a compound of 1722 and a der. of 3700; in the face of (lit. or fig.):- before, in the presence (sight) of, to.

Can you see by this definition...God doesn't actually have to be IN hell with them. They can still be separated...they are before or in the presence/sight of God. If something is in your sight...it doesn't mean you have to be right next to it.

 

[hola]

1722 is too long...I'll type it at someone's request. 1799 is from the compound of 1722 & 3700...I would like to add the definition of 3700.

Strong's #3700 optanomai-(short intro with no spec. definiton given which is given in the word optomai below.)
optomai
which is used for it [optanomai] in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically it intensive 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a watching from a distance):-appear, look, see, shew self.

If you didn't get it, the definition for part of the compound Greek word for "presence" is:
1. appear
2. look
3. see
4. shew self

 

[porcupine]

Is there something wrong with saying that hell is "separation from God"? I think thats a good and sufficient definition. Because it stands to reason that if we are separated from God, Who is the source of all love, all beauty, all truth, essentially - the source of anything which is objectively good - then separation from Him would entail being surrounded by pure evil which is the worst situation possible.

My point was not that the phrase should not be used, but that it was insufficient -- especially for teaching the unlearned. It does not convey (as it would to those older in the Lord) the horror and torment that damnation entails. Scripture, I think, is the best way to go. It does not dwell on the separation, but the actual torment.

 

[porcupine]

To help give an understanding of the real Greek meaning of the word "presence", specifically mentioned in Revelation 14:10-11 (which Greek word is sometimes, but not always used for the English word "presence" in the NT).

Strong's #1799 enopion, neut. of a compound of 1722 and a der. of 3700; in the face of (lit. or fig.):- before, in the presence (sight) of, to.

Can you see by this definition...God doesn't actually have to be IN hell with them. They can still be separated...they are before or in the presence/sight of God. If something is in your sight...it doesn't mean you have to be right next to it.

That still does not addres the verse in Psalm 139. It is very distinct. If you or I go there, He is there.

 

[ps139]

My point was not that the phrase should not be used, but that it was insufficient -- especially for teaching the unlearned. It does not convey (as it would to those older in the Lord) the horror and torment that damnation entails. Scripture, I think, is the best way to go. It does not dwell on the separation, but the actual torment.

Understood. You are right about the unlearned. Not everyone might draw the conclusion that permanent separation from God necessarily will be the worst horror there is.

 

[ps139]

I'll reply with the Scripture porcupine used:

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Do you see in verse 11 speaks of both the fallen angels and humans. Your assumption was wrong, according to Scripture.

So are you now saying that all human souls will exist for eternity. Frankly I do not understand what point you are trying to make. A moment ago I thought we were debating now we seem to be agreeing on the very thing I thought we were debating??

 

[hola]

That still does not addres the verse in Psalm 139. It is very distinct. If you or I go there, He is there.

I did address this in my post #25

Plus...remember, David was a believer.

And remember...David said "IF..."!!!

The believers with the Holy Spirit don't need to worry about separation from God, they have God in them...that' pretty close!

David said, "even if I was in hell (with his current relationship with the Lord the same), God would be with me". Why? The Holy Spirit was in David.